Brooks
 

My sentiments exactly St. Shrume.

Also, I hate the bone headed plays Brooks has made, and I agree with have many many needs as a team, but the qb position has to be addressed. I hope we have a shot at Drew Brees and take that shot not based on talent, but based on his heart and obvious desire to get better. AB has neither unfortunately. We could possibly win with AB if we had a better D, but throwing a pass backward to an o-lineman and that pass Sunday to Al Wilson just can\'t be ignored. All turnovers are bad, but turnovers that lead directly to points or take away points are inexcusable, and these are the kind AB causes.

If he is not fumbling on the goalline he is throwing a pick giving the opposing O the ball in their own redzone or the D scores. IT started in the Seattle game, and can anyone say it has gotten better or worse as the year has gone on? Sunday\'s boneheaded pass is being called worse than the one to Gandy in the Sports community, how much longer does he get a free pass on this?

And why is it the assumption we need someone with AB\'s \"talent\" to replace him? I just want a guy who won\'t turn the ball over and puts the team in positions to win. He doesn\'t have to win it himself. This ain\'t AB and like I said, it is getting worse. Maybe a coaching change is enough, maybe it isn\'t. But if we come out of next off-season with AB as the only option, we may be the lsoers again.

Brooks
 

Jesus people. I\'m starting to feel like Danno. I DIDN\'T SAY AB IS THE BIGGEST PROBLEM.

AB IS NOT THE BIGGEST PROBLEM. AB IS NOT THE BIGGEST PROBLEM. AB IS NOT THE BIGGEST PROBLEM.

Get it yet?

Now, can you guys distinguish between me saying AB is A problem that needs to be dealt with and AB is the LARGEST problem???????

Those are two different ideas. Do you guys get that? I think AB is a problem and I would like to see the Saints bring in competition. I DID NOT SAY THAT AB IS A BIGGER PROBLEM THAN THE DEFENSE.

Do you get it yet? Should I start over? C\'mon guys, surely you\'re all smarter than this.

PS - Danno said he wants to trade Deuce! LOL ;)

[Edited on 23/11/2004 by WhoDat]

Brooks
 

Oooooooooh...
I am enjoying this. :)

So explain to me again why you suddenly DON\'T feel like Brooks is the BIGGEST problem... ;)

Brooks
 

i think i would agre with most of you guys that AB is a problem. one thing that does seem to bother me about him is i think because he has lost confidence in the coaching staff he really doesnt go into the gams giving it everything he has. i mean look at some of the really pathetic plays hes made recently. just terrible and stupid. droughns said after the game in a statement, i saw in an article and i believe it was on nola.com, that on the first play he saw our defense wasnt set and they were looking backwards (like confused) and he thought to himself this might be a big one. i mean jesus if our guys arent prepared on the first play of the game what the heck are they practicing? so i think a lot of this is as much about coaching. and i think thats what im saying about brooks\' play recently. but there is no excuse for the just horrible decisions he has made with the ball. the throw that was intercepted and ran in for a td from our like 7 yard line. then the backwards throw. what in gods name. he also without a doubt misses wide open wide outs, whehter it be over their head or behind them or in front of them. but the worse thing about him late;y to me is his attitude. because he doesnt seem to care. and that from a qb just will not do. but i agree with whodat. lets bring in someone he can compete with and lets see what hes worth. that also includes a new coaching staff. im not ready to say he cant play in this league just yet. this staff doesnt seem to have developed any of our players really. but i also think even with anew coaching staff we may still be a few years away from winning. because i think we have to be overhauled. so they will have to build a team. but if we could get a team that just played hard every week i\'d be happy until the winning eventually came. like the cardinals

Brooks
 

I must disagree with you here... while I think Brooks would be signed elsewhere... Baltimore would not be that place. Have you seen Boeller lately? He is playing great... Brooks would probably be picked up by Miami, Arizona, Oakland, and maybe Dallas depending on Parcells... I dont think him and Brooks would get along... Seattle might give him a look too since Hasselback is about to cost Homgren his jobbie job...

Brooks
 

No doubt.
I\'d take Romeo over Weiss. I really think we need a defensive minded focus.
Yup. No time to grow those positions.
Nothing wrong with that. But on the flip side bring in a real QB coach to work with Brooks and whomever else we bring in.
Definitely.

Great post.

SFIAH

Brooks
 

Whodat, why do you feel that AB is the biggest problem on this team?

Brooks
 

WhoDat, I think Brooks is not the answer at the QB position for this franchise.

But even I don\'t think AB is the BIGGEST problem on this team. We can\'t give up 500 yards in offense and expect to win games.

Even though I struggle to understand what Brooks means with quotes like this:
http://www.nola.com/saints/t-p/index...9861862010.xml

[Edited on 24/11/2004 by BrooksMustGo]

Brooks
 

Who,

Why do you keep insisting that AB is the biggest problem? Sheesh. I thought Shrume and I argued successfully against that?

[Edited on 24/11/2004 by JKool]

Brooks
 

Ok, just kidding.

I just wanted to clear this up actually. Since I knew what your position was, I went back and read my post to see how you could think that I was acusing you of being so ridiculous.

I see that the quote that you took from me appears in the post I addressed to you, so it makes quite good sense that you took me as saying that you disagreed. It was actually that I was just stating my argument in another way to see if you AGREED, since (at that time) Syco and Blake6900 were raking my view over the coals.

Thus, I did not intend for you to take it as me putting words in your mouth, merely a restatement of why I was saying the things I was in general. You\'ll notice a bit higher up in that post I asked if you agreed with what I was saying and then stated two more points - so apologies for the misunderstanding.

Brooks
 

Whodi,

Who made you ask this:
No one in this thread made this assumption, at least as far as I can tell.

[Edited on 24/11/2004 by JKool]

Brooks
 

PS - Who, the thing that started me on this \"not the biggest problem thing\" was this:

Which you, Who, did NOT say.

Feeling persecuted these days? Maybe you need some time off to hug some trees... I find it quite relaxing myself... ;)

Brooks
 

Danno! You want to trade Duece!!!!

He\'s THE ONLY GOOD PLAYER who has ever worn a Saints jersey!!! (Unless Joe Montana wore one as a joke one time maybe...)

Sheesh.

Some people don\'t know a darn thing about football.

;)

Cheers. :heartpump:

Brooks
 

BMG,

I\'m beating you with my eyes all day - :hallucine:

Brooks
 

I hate AB, but let\'s see what some other teams have to work with...

CHI - M. Krenzel
ARI - J. McCown/S. King
MIA - J. Fiedler/A.J. Feely
BUF - D. Bledsoe
DAL - V. Testaverde/D. Henson
CIN - C. Palmer
OAK - K. Collins
BAL - K. Boller

I hate AB. Does anyone feel any better? I hate AB. How \'bout a little Krenzel action? I hate AB. Kerry Collins, remember me? I hate AB...

Brooks
 

OK, here\'s the BMG offseason plan.
1. Get a quality GM from someone like New England, Philly or Baltimore.

2. Hire a coach like Brad Childress, Romeo Crennel, Charlie Weiss, etc.

3. I don\'t think Brees is the right move. If San Diego has a lick of sense (and I know that\'s a big if), they franchise Brees and make someone pay through the nose for him. That doesn\'t work for us.

4. I think that our GM/coach has to face some facts. We need a rebuild. Joe Horn will be too expensive to keep if he won\'t restructure--we either trade or release him. Darren Howard will probably be too expensive, I don\'t see us putting the tag on him. So right there, we have Pathon and Stallworth and Smith starting. Boo will have to actually do something and Henderson will have to learn to run routes.

5. I\'d like to restructure Joe since he\'s our most productive WR. If we can\'t I\'d like to trade to someone that would give us a 2nd rounder for him. I\'m not sure this is likely, but the worst case is we release Joe and get no value for him.

6. Brooks is the only trade-able player we have that we can get good value for. So I\'d go to someone like Miami, San Fran, Oakland or Arizona and try to deal him.

For instance in a Miami deal I\'d try and trade Brooks for Surtain, a 2nd rounder and a conditional 2nd next year. Surtain, McKenzie, Craft and Brown would provide a serviceable set of CB\'s for the time being, and let us get serious about fixing run defense. I wonder if Miami might take Brooks and Stecker for Surtain and a 1st rounder though? Probably not, but fun to think about.

With San Fran, I\'d try and deal him for Kwame Harris at LT, a 2nd and 3rd this year and maybe a 3rd next year. If Harris could start at LT, maybe we could move Gandy to RT and buy ourselves another year to really fix the O-line?

With Oakland, I\'d try and swap him for Napolean Harris, a 2nd and maybe a 3rd next year. Or maybe try to deal for both Harris and Stuart Schweigert. I really think Al Davis might go crazy about getting Brooks and having a vertical passing game again.

With Arizona, I\'d try and get Karlos Dansby and a 2nd and maybe a 3rd next year. Denny Green might be able to do something with Brooks, he might be open to a trade.

It\'s just hard to tell exactly what Brooks trade value is right now, but that\'s the way I\'d go. I\'d try to trade for key defensive players and picks to try and help those 80 stab wounds and cure our aneurysm at the same time.

7. I\'d get the very best deal I could for Brooks and then work a deal with Jax for David Garrard or Atlanta for Matt Schaub and let the new head coach develop him.

8. Spend our first rounder on a LB. Use free agency to get a 2 gap DT. Use our second round pick on a prospect at LT if we can\'t resolve the position by trade.

I\'m not sure everything falls into place next year, but I think we could probably manage 8-8 if we made good use of free agency. By that I mean, fix the o-line and give our opponents a steady dose of Deuce, kind of like the Steelers are doing this year.

Brooks
 

Third and seven. Favre drops back, throws down the middle and its picked off. Commentator\"oh wow!! You can see how angry Brett is with himself for throwing that int as he walks to the sidelines.\"

Third and seven. Brooks drops back, throws down the middle , and its picked off. Commentator \" Why the hell is Brooks smiling as he walks to the sidelines!! Does he realize he just threw a touchdown to the other team!!\"

Favre plays with fierce intensity! He wants to win every game. He\'s OLD SCHOOL! Brooks doesn\'t even come close in comparison. Just my opinion, though.

Brooks
 

d4p,

The interception leads to seven points against... who cares who threw it or what their attitude is - the result is the same either way.

Look, I agreed that Farve and Brooks are different players. They play with different styles. My point was this: making bad (read - stupid) plays regularly will not necessarily kill the team\'s chance of winning (Farve makes the same bone head plays that Brooks does and GB can still win, make the playoffs, etc).

In fact, your example just shows that people evaluate players skills on completely irrelevant facts, like whether or not they \"look angry\" after an interception - they both did THE SAME dumb thing.

Brooks
 

JKool-

If you ever, ever ever ever ever ever, post six times in a row, in one thread, I will disown you and start editing posts at random- and they\'ll be funny!!!! :P

Brooks
 

JKool, these are the responses I am talking about:

Though not directly stated, these comments directly imply that Brooks is worth keeping around because he A)puts up numbers, B) stats make him one of the brighter spots on the team, and C) would win 8-10 games with a better D. Obviously the people who posted this in this thread feel Brooks\' \"talent\" is what we need cause he puts up numbers. Go check the posts out for yourself. Wha I was saying is I don\'t think we even need a qb as \"talented\" as Brooks, just one who knws when to throw the ball away, when to take a sack, how not to audible a run into an 8 man front, and how to manage the game. AB has none of these qualities.

Brooks
 

Hey Bnb,
Was that gratuitous posting or what?

As a rookie, it is tempting to use Jkools
tactics, inflate them numbers baby!!!

Brooks
 

BnB,

Tempting....

Brooks
 

Good point- post count bumping, anyone?

Brooks
 

Whodi,

I don\'t think any of those quotes claim that we need a QB who is as \"talented\" - athletically anyway. People do want a QB who is at least as good (which was my point) - whatever that means.

Your points are taken quite well, but why should we trade down just so some people aren\'t annoyed. Also, many of the great QBs are inconsistent as well - e.g. Farve - which few people seem to notice when they complain about Brooks.

I\'m not sure how to evaluate your claim about a less talented QB who makes fewer mistakes. I don\'t think anyone is obviously against that, but it is hard to decide what that means.

My stance remains that if the defense were fixed, Brooks would be good enough (not great mind you, but good enough) to take this team where we want it. Sure he\'d probably cost us a handful of games, sure I\'d consider an upgrade, but people are making way too much stink out of this Brooks thing when EVERYONE seems to agree that this team has bigger fish to fry.

It is my honest opinion that everyone got bored of talking about the reall problem - cough - coaching - cough - and are just on this Brooks thing because he had a huge part in that embarassment we just suffered.

As I recall, one of the big complaints is that he will be on the NFL \"low lights\" this year for those ridiculous underhand passes. However, last year he threw a key block in the \"River City Relay\" which was an NFL \"highlight\" for the ages. I guess, I\'m just not sure what being in highlights or lowlights has to do with anything.

Brooks
 

johnny,

If I were trying to \"run up my stats\", I wouldn\'t waste my time posting long messages and making arguments, I would simply type \"agreed\" after posts I agreed with as often as possible. Take whatever strategy you like, but that one has always appeared to be the most effective to me.

Brooks
 

Warm out today
Warm Yesterday
Even warmer today

Met her on my CB
Said her name was Mimi
Sounded like an angel come to earth(come to earth)

When I went to meet her
Man you shoulda seen her
Twice as tall as me, three times the girth(times the girth)

Oh my fat baby loves to eat(loves to eat)
A big ol\' budda-belly and her breasts swing past her feet(feet)
My fat baby loves to eeeaaat
My big old fat ass baby loves to eat

I got blisters on me fingers!!

[Edited on 24/11/2004 by BlackandBlue]

Brooks
 

JKool, I think what\'s kind of on people\'s mind is that given the myriad of other problems we\'re facing, Brooks might be too expensive to keep.

He doesn\'t manage the game very well, he doesn\'t make all the throws, he has poor decision making and while his bonehead moves aren\'t always what costs us games, they underscore the fact that he can\'t carry a team alone.

I think you\'re right, if we had a defense like Pittsburgh, Baltimore, Philadelphia or Buffalo, then he probably would be just good enough to get us to the playoffs. But we don\'t and without a defense like that, he can\'t.

Right now, Brooks best value to us is trade bait. His contract is about to get really out of control, but some teams are so starved for a QB, like Miami, Oakland, Arizona or San Fran that we might really get a good deal for him. If we could pick up one or two young defensive players and some draft choices, then maybe Brooks could be our Herschel Walker. With 2-3 defensive players and a LT, maybe we could pick up a qb to manage games for us and give everyone a steady dose of Deuce. Pittsburgh really provides a good model for us on this.

Brooks isn\'t Manning or Favre and we need to stop pretending that he is. The San Diego game is a nice way of looking at Brooks career. His numbers were awful until the game was out of reach and then in the second half, he threw for a lot more yards, had more completions and brought his passer rating back into a less embarrassing range. But it doesn\'t matter that he has good numbers, because the game is already over.

Brooks
 

I was thinking some kind of deal, like Aaron Brooks to San Fran for Jamie Winborne and some draft picks. Immediate upgrade to the linebacker position, and, with all the cap problems they are having, they will need to let someone go in order to pick up a solid QB and sign Peterson.

Brooks
 

Look, the NFL is a nice little club. Teams don\'t make disparaging statements about other teams or their players. But their actions do speak. And when/if Brooks becomes available there may be a few takers for him as a backup but no one, repeat, no one will sign him as a starter. Brooks is on the way to becoming Kordell Stewart.


I see a lot of talk here about trading Brooks to this team and that team. Many of you are buying into Brooks\' own spin: \"I\'ve got great stats, I\'m a great QB, if it doesn\'t work here. that\'s OK cuz everybody wants me.\" That\'s delusional. If you read what I said closely, you\'ll see I didn\'t say no teams would want Brooks. I said no team would sign him as their starter. That means no team would build their future around him. That means Brooks is on the way to becoming Kordell Stewart. Baltimore has Boller. That\'s a kid with a future and the Ravens know it. Miami needs a head coach before anything else and in fact that team made the same mistake with Fiedler that the Saints have made with Brooks. It\'s doubtful Wayne Hyzinga will make the same mistake again and invest time and money in a lost cause. Re: Oakland, do you really believe Aaron Brooks is a QB Norv Turner or Al Davis would want? C\'mon.


While I don\'t look at AB as the \"biggest problem\" and I do look at him as one that, if solved, would fix a lot of other problems, including the lack of defense. Sustained drives are a defense\'s best friend and by and large the Saints are unable to sustain drives. When they do the ball is turned over with no points scored so, other than time off the field, nothing is gained for the defense. Clearly the defense is porous but their play could improve greatly if they weren\'t expected to be on the field so long.


Perhaps it would be helpful to list Aaron Brook\'s pros and cons to determine just how good he is. I\'ll start.


PROS: Great long ball thrower. Good scrambling ability. That\'s about it.


CONS: Can\'t read defenses, can\'t throw touch passes, too often throws mid-range passes high, behind, in front or short of the receiver, lacks good leadership skills, can\'t call audibles, rarely takes responsibility, very slow delivery.


Help me out with the Pros and Cons.

Brooks
 

He\'s got a great smile.

I would basically agree with you on the Kordell Stewart part. BUT is seems to take a couple of moves for that to really happen. Coaches ruin their careers all the time because of an unfounded and irrational belief in a QB\'s potential. Dan Reeves with Tommy Maddox, Cowher with Kordell, Haslett with Brooks, the Dolphins organization with Fiedler. It happens all the time.

I don\'t think it\'s much of a stretch to believe that someone would believe that Haslett, the defense, and drops are what\'s killing Brooks.

Someone will get enamored with that big arm and say things like, \"look at his numbers\", \"see how far he can throw the ball\", \"see the 4rth quarter comebacks\", \"if his WRs had dropped everything he\'d be a pro-bowler\", \"the fans in NO held him back\" and \"he\'s barely scratched the surface of his potential.\"

I think we could get a pretty good deal for him right now. But I do agree, the longer we keep him, more people will refuse to accept the excuses made for him. Besides, this is the year of the resurrected QB. But if we are going to get value for him we need to deal him quick.

[Edited on 24/11/2004 by BrooksMustGo]

Brooks
 

I love everyone\'s passion, but unfortunately I\'m suppose to be working, so I had to skim some of the longer posts, so I alopogize if I repeat a point that\'s already been made:

First of all, let\'s not romanticize Brees or even Big Ben just yet. They\'re not the first young QBs to have break out seasons then slumped into fighting for a spot on the bench in pre-season.
Second, I live in Philly so I fully conseed anyone\'s \"did you actually watch the game\" points. Force to stare at a stupid helmet moving across my computer screen on nfl.com, I read a lot of stats. And the one that stands out to me are \"longest\" yards of the opposing players. In a typical Saints game, the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd recievers will ALL have a longest play in the 20\'s or 30\'s. Correct me if I wrong, but that tells me the D is missing assignments or missing tackles or both. Denver\'s RB had a 51 yard TD. Knowing my Saints, I KNOW we were probably tripping over our own feet, running into each other, and grabbing handfuls of jersey just to hit the tuff empty handed while the RB skipped into the endzone. That\'s a problem!
In an effort to keep it short, my last point will be: Brooks is the only Saints QB to win a playoff game, against the riegning Superbowl Champs, no less. Now THAT was a beautiful game!

Brooks
 

Ouch! I think you owe Brooks an appology for that one! ;)

Brooks
 

Kool,

I know pretty much everyone here knows the coaching staff has to go. We have beaten that one in the head, that\'s why we are moving on. I agree with BNB about trying to pawn him off to San Fran for Winborn and some picks. I would love that deal.

AB is not Favre cause Favre is a winner. I don\'t know who is comparing them, but they should stop. Favre won a Superbowl without a premiere rb abd premiere receivers. And their defense was alright. We won\'t get this from AB. His time has come and gone. Now like I alluded to, maybe a new staff and an actual qb coach can change that. There are the Rich Gannons of the world who got better older. But as the cons of AB were listed, he has way more of those than positives so if Haslett goes and a serviceable replacement can be found, he has to go.

Brooks
 

BMG,

I like the \"financial\" argument. I\'ll take that one under advisment - it is interesting.

Whodi,

I\'m the one who made the Farve comparison. The comparison is simple: Farve throws bad passes and makes huge mental errors :: Brooks throws bad passes and makes huge mental errors. You\'ve just made my point for me - if GB can win with Farve and he does these stupid things, then NO can win with Brooks when he does these stupid things.

CERTAINLY, there are other great things about Farve that are not great things about Brooks, but that does not negate the fact that a team CAN win even when a QB has a brain caniption once or twice a game, and that is the reason for comparing the two - NOTHING MORE.

BnB,

Hilarious :D

Everyone,

I\'m enjoying a discussion of Brooks value in a trade. I have nothing to offer here, but I think it is an interesting question.

Brooks
 

johnny,

I just thought of another strategy that works well for increasing your posting number without really contributing:

Pick a fight with someone over something ridiculous. After that continue to bicker back and forth about agendas, whose Mom is less virtuous, post disturbing pictures that say \"owned\" somewhere in them, and then claim that there is some group of people on the board who are out to get just you - make a point of reminding everyone as often as possible that it is you who are the target of attack... you get the idea.

:shock: :broccoli: :shock:

Brooks
 

The thing that kills me is there are still people here defending this clown of a QB. Pssssssssttt.....people are laughing, now. Face it, it just isn\'t working. It\'s over. Buh-bye, AB.

Brooks
 

Oh boy, comparing AB to Brett Favre? C\'mon JKool, that\'s a stretch even for erstwhile sunshiners like you and I! ;)

Sure, Favre self-destructs every once in a while. He\'s always done it, and you can bet the farm he\'ll do it again (probably in the playoffs, like last year). But Favre is also capable of lighting up the scoreboard with the best of \'em, and you can bet the farm he\'ll do that again, too.

AB, on the other hand, self-destructs frequently ... almost every game. His \"brain caniptions\" are commonplace, far more frequent than once or twice a game. And while Favre pulls a ... well, an AB ... once in a while, the results usually aren\'t so devastating as the whoppers AB pulls. And finally, I ain\'t NEVER seen (bad English for emphasis) Favre laughing off a screw-up as he walks off the field.

I\'ll freely acknowledge that some mistakes are to be expected from AB because we\'re so frequently playing from behind. I\'ll also agree that coaches are somewhat to blame, because if AB\'s play isn\'t evidence enough of a lack of discipline, his award-winning grin after his antics should be. There are times I like AB, and (God help me) I pull for him every Sunday. If he could play up to that contract, I\'d be happy with him ... in fact, I used to be.

Brooks
 

Wow! Thanks for the insight. I really see what you\'re driving at here. Damn, what WAS I thinking?

LB, do you think we should just cut him now and play Bouman? At least THEN no one would be laughing.

Brooks
 

Good go mutineer. Beat me to it. It is an absolute insult to Favre to even bring AB\'s name up in the same category.

Kool, if you brought up the comparison, I can\'t understand it. Favre is a league\'s better qb than AB. Favre knows when he needs to gun a pass. and when to put slight touch. Favre knows when to take a sack, and when to throw the ball away. Favre commands the respect of the players around him and makes them better. Name one person on our team AB has made better. One. I have seen Favre go and apologize to the DEFENSE when he puts them in a bad position cause of a boneheaded play, and he tells them he\'ll get it back for them and they believe him. Has AB EVER done that? Ever? The biggest difference between AB and Favre is accountability. Favre owns up to his mistakes while AB could care less. That\'s why his players lay it all on the line for him. So an accountable qb will always be held in higher regard than a dumb play making qb who could care less.

Brooks
 

mutineer,

You\'ll see that I acknowledge the significant differences between Farve and Brooks throughout all the posts on this thread. No need to repeat them, since you\'ve reminded us of them here, but the point of my comparison is a small one (NOT a general one).

Do you agree that Farve has days where he makes as many stupid plays as Brooks? (Maybe not in as many games, but as many times within a game.) If yes, then you agree with my point, since GB has won some of those games with a strong running game and a good defense. Now, this means that your QB can make stupid mistakes and you can still win. Thus, if we had a good defense (since we sometimes have a good running game), WE TOO could win games with a QB who makes dumb mistakes. Beyond that I make no claims about the comparison (and you point out good reasons why in your post).

I suppose, it may be time to revisit the whole \"leadership\" thing, so I\'ll ask you this - if a guy smiles or sulks, how does that affect his play? Does it make him throw worse? Does it make him trip over the 50 yard line? Does it make him unable to tackle? I mean really what \"football\" effect does this have on him? (Hint: most people will say that it effects those around him, but NOT him. Rebutal: NFL players are professionals who should worry about what they are doing and not whether some dumbass at or near the sideline - including QBs, fans, etc. - is similing.)