Brooks
 

Yeah, and plugging AB into our mathematical variables doesn\'t seem to work. He doesn\'t fit the \"vocal\" style of leadership, unless his laughter following a screw up counts. I certainly hope he doesn\'t fit the \"example\" style of leadership, either, or we\'ll have everyone throwing backwards, fumbling all over the place, and subsequently laughing about it.

Then again, after seeing us the other day, it appears more of our players do seem to be following that example. Deuce\'s fumbles and drops, the OL\'s ever-increasing false start and holding penalties, Pathon\'s bobbled interception (whoever\'s fault it was), and Gleason\'s $5,000 money-shot all could be taken as the result of following a screwed up example.

Maybe he\'s an \"example\" leader, after all.

[Edited on 9/12/2004 by mutineer10]

[Edited on 9/12/2004 by mutineer10]

Brooks
 

[quote:40c1599803]Yeah, and plugging AB into our mathematical variables doesn\'t seem to work. He doesn\'t fit the \"vocal\" style of leadership, unless his laughter following a screw up counts. I certainly hope he doesn\'t fit the \"example\" style of leadership, either, or we\'ll have everyone throwing backwards, fumbling all over the place, and subsequently laughing about it.

Then again, after seeing us the other day, it appears more of our players do seem to be following that example. Deuce\'s fumbles and drops, the OL\'s ever-increasing false start and holding penalties, Pathon\'s bobbled interception (whoever\'s fault it was), and Gleason\'s $5,000 money-shot all could be taken as the result of following a screwed up example.

Maybe he\'s an \"example\" leader, after all.

[Edited on 9/12/2004 by mutineer10]

It all comes down from the top. What you are seeing on the field is the product of the Front Office. LoomBoom, Baby Mule, and company are in charge of locating, evaluating, and picking the best available talent that will field a winning football team. In this chaos, LoomBoom doesn\'t want to upset FieldCow because he\'s got his lips stuck on Benson\'s backside with about 300psi of vacuum, and thinks only of how to bilk the citizens of Louisiana out of money and a stadium. LoomBoom is going to protect his rice bowl because he\'s developed an addiction to eating, sleeping, and poopooing indoors. So, what you see is a set of sheep, going along with whatever FieldCow says, because they know wherein the REAL power lies.

Baby Mule and LoomBoom are concerned with only one thing: CAP ROOM. They also know that what ever stumbles out on the field will fill the Superdome, because New Orleans and Louisiana people like football. Therefore, sellouts week in and week out.

I really don\'t think that Jim Hazlett is as bad a coach as he is protrayed to be. I believe that there are other factors beyond his control that he has to live with. Two of them are the fact that Benson, not Big Mule or Hazlett, hired both McCarthy and Venturi. Benson, not Hazlett, caved when Fumbles stomped his feet and sucked his thumb for a new contract, rather than sending Fumbles back to the car wash. Same was true with Turley, Roaf, Naole, Kennison, Poole, Williams, Fontenot, and the list goes on. I believe that LoomBoom has more hiring decisions than does Hazlett and then LoomBoom cut the rug from under Hazlett with his remarks this year. Those remarks, especially during a season, were the most classless thing I\'ve witnessed in a lot of years watching football. And then, surprise, surprise, the team quit. Wow! What a concept? So, the question is raised, who\'s really to blame here? I say FieldCow and LoomBoom. :exclam:

Brooks
 

Mutey, Brooks is an example leader, the bad ones you pointed out. When you have a goof who doesn\'t care one way or another if you win, who\'s gonna follow that? If you were an o-lineman and your qb threw 20 yards behind the line or under-haned to an opposing lb for a td, would you wanna bust your arse blocking for him? And if it has been going on for years? And if he is not accountable? I sure as hell wouldn\'t. Add to the fact, and I didn\'t even know this, that Brooks was LAUGHING and CLAPPING on the sideline of the Atlanta game when Atlanta took the lead? ARE YOU KIDDING ME? He should have been made deactive like Keyshawn was in Tampa at that point. Put Kingsbury in. I saw him at Texas Tech and at least know he can wing it around.

Kool, we truly have made a breakthrough. We have a consensus. Kudos.

Brooks
 

Ok Houston, we have a problem.

It seems that the vocal leader issue just muddies up the water. My contention about Brooks has always been his lack of intangibles or football smarts. I also find it maddening that he can\'t make all the throws and continues to back into the rush. Montana may not have been a fire breather or field disciplinarian, but he had a clear idea of what he wanted to accomplish and was able to direct his guys to make it happen. He was master of the field and always recognized what the defense was doing.

Brooks does not seem to have a similar aptitude, regardless of being vocal or not, he doesn\'t seem to have the capacity to direct, grasp or inspire. I\'m not sure I think the vocal part is even part of the equation.

Brooks
 

We should have kept JT. We need to get rid of Brook\'s and cut Bouman (a waste of air), and Haz needs to leave the state as quickly as possible.

Brooks
 

Houston! Help BMG! We have a problem!

Boys, you had to know our peaceful co-existence wouldn\'t last.

BMG,

A fine point. We were merely talking about Brooks\' leadership qualities, not the other things you\'ve mentioned. Of course, those are important too. Brooks has many problems (not the least of which you list). However, it is my general view that \"intangibles\" is ambiguous - it is a word that stands in for many things. One of them is \"leadership\". Whodi, Mutineer, and myself have argued that \"leadership\" breaks up into AT LEAST two kinds: vocal - chewing out, being emotive, being firey, and example - playing well, being ballsy on the field, getting things done. I think we all agree that Brooks has little to none of either. However, it is still worth making the distinction, since people make arguments that are incorrect if they don\'t make the distinction: namely, unless you\'re all up in peoples\' faces, you ain\'t no leader. This is false, look at Montana, or RBs - they are example leaders rather than vocal leaders, BUT they are leaders nonetheless. Thus, I argue that vocal is part of the equation, but I agree with you that it is only a small part. And, I argue, that it is not a necessary part of the equation.

So, I don\'t think we have a problem. What do you think?

Cherm,

Buddy, someone needs to make an argument as to why JT is any good (though I agree that he was probably better than Bouman). He looked like carp in the preseason, so I don\'t know why people keep thinking that he\'s all that. This \"Klingsbury\" guy, or whatever the heck his name is, is so far just as good as JT was (since we know relatively little about either).

Brooks
 

http://www.thejump.net/id/grass-carp.jpg

Sorry, struck me funny, had to be done. ;)

OK, I can buy that. In fact, I can agree wholeheartedly that the \"in your face\" style is not necessarily leadership at all.

I see the QB\'s job to direct the offense. Hence, the emphasis we hear all the time about the QB learning the playbook. My big accusation against Brooks for some time now has been that he is a sandlot player. He\'s really pretty good when he\'s improvisational and freelancing. He\'s just the guy you want as QB at the family reunion or the company picnic. He\'s not the guy you want to pay millions of dollars to direct a professional offense.

I have questioned his mechanics, his ability to see what the defense is giving him and his ability to work with the offense to execute a game plan.

However, in this narrow context I think that leadership is directing the offense effectively and making the guys around you better. I think Brooks has a particularly hard time with having the confidence of the guys playing around him. Haslett is partly to blame for this predicament because as an offensive player you never know if you are going to make the media hi-light reel showing how it isn\'t Brooks\' fault. Brooks also bears responsibility as well. Throughout his career, he has been a little too eager to point the finger at the guys around him or to make excuses for himself. I can\'t imagine it might not seem natural to try and trust a guy who will push you in front of the bus if things go badly.

When Brooks first appeared, he was this peppy, eager guy who seemed happy to be playing. He was pretty fast and had a big arm. He didn\'t have to do too much. If he missed his first read, he ran. We all loved that kid.

The problem was that he never seemed to really move past that. He\'s still making rookie mistakes and relying too much on the canon arm to bail him out. Even worse, he now has a canon mouth to go with it. And the bottom line remains that he isn\'t directing the offense on the field. That\'s kind of where my beef with his leadership ability lies. He seems to \"me-first\" to really help the guys he\'s playing with.

Brooks
 

BMG,

(1) Hilarious. I loved the carp. Damn, that\'s a good sized catch too!

(2) It looks like you agree too now. This thread is just getting better and better.

PS - :dancingmonkey:

Brooks
 

WhoDat blaming Brooks? But he says he\'s not blaming Brooks. That\'s typical WhoDat. At least have the guts to take a stand. ;) Just kidding WhoDat. :P

Brooks hasn\'t played great, but who has? I could and DO blame Deuce more than Brooks. Deuce has looked awful this year. Our running game and run blocking has forced Brooks to throw the ball more than any other QB in the NFL.

You folks do understand that we have the worst defense in the NFL and absolutely no running game. How many QB\'s do you think would be sucessful in that situation?

Books is in the absolute worst situation a QB could be in. He has to drop back to pass on every play and everyone knows. it. And to top it off, our offensive line sucks.

No one is going to do well if put in the same situation.

Get off Brooks and jump on Deuce. He\'s looked worse than Brooks. Or, blast the defense. Or coaching.

Who started this thread.......??

Oh yeah, Whodat did. Go figure.

Brooks
 

Is it just me or does this not read like \"just kidding\"?
Nice to see you back though Billy. I\'ve missed your perspective.

I\'m not sure I understand this sort of argumentation. Everyone else has looked awful. The coaching has been awful. Brooks has looked awful. Therefore it\'s ok to talk about the coaching and anyone else, but Brooks is verboten? If everything is bad, why not talk about everything?

Just a couple of items here.

1. This thread got the JoeSam stamp of approval for thoughtful discussion with respect all around. I think it is right up there with the Tony Dungy thread in the other forum as one of the better discussions I\'ve ever been a part of on this board. If you wish to support Brooks or make an argument that he is being scapegoated here, by all means make the argument and know that your opinion will be respected. But please let\'s not get sidetracked with trying to put verbal thumbs in the other guy\'s eye. You\'re better than that. You\'re a passionate fan with a valuable point of veiw Billy. Castigating each other doesn\'t provide the dialogue with anything constructive.

2. I think that WhoDat\'s initial post was born out of frustration during the Denver game. The int that AB threw might as well have been a handoff to the linebacker. It wasn\'t one of AB\'s better moments. I don\'t think WhoDat was all that far out in being frustrated with the play.

WhoDat also seemed to be contending that AB\'s longtime problem with backing out of the protection may be making the linemen worse than they are. This is a debatable topic since the offensive line has just been abysmal this season, but it\'s not a crazy thing to talk about.

At any rate, as we face an offseason where virtually everyone agrees that major changes need to be made, it is very difficult not to discuss Brooks. His cap number is going to get very large this coming year and it is a good time to evaluate whether AB has more value to us as a tradable commodity, whether we should re-work his deal and whether he is the answer for this franchise at the QB position.

I think that the board would be a much more interesting place with your perspective in answering those questions Billy. Is Brooks worth his cap number? Should we keep him? Is this supporting cast and coaching staff really holding a good player back? Let\'s not lose sight of what could be a pivotal off-season by making the other guy our punching bag.

PS: JOESAM or HALO could we get an olive branch smiley to put in here? I\'d really like to see peace on the board.

Brooks
 

Nice work BMG. I agree all around.

Billy, if you\'re only gonna come around once a month, please regale us with some of those fine arguments we all love. We miss ya bud.

Also, :pinkele:

Brooks
 

How can the defense play better when they\'re on the field so damn much? 10 points scored in the 1st quarter, over all the games combined this year? Average time of possession this year: Saints- 26:32 Opponents- 33:28. The offense is really burning new paths with all those three and outs in the first half.

Brooks
 

\"Give a QB a football, and he\'ll throw it backwards or fumble it all day. Teach a QB to play football, and ... well, you get the idea...\" :D

BnB, I agree with you that the defense is getting precious little help from the offense. It\'s just as tough for a defense to constantly play from behind as it is for an offense.

But here\'s where we finally get into the granddaddy of all circular arguments. Are our troubles the defense\'s fault because it can\'t keep the opposing offense from scoring points, or is it the offense\'s fault because they can\'t score points in the first place? Both end up playing from behind, and both end up looking pretty sloppy while doing so.

I think the simplest answer is that they\'re both lousy. Sooner or later, one has to take up the responsibility the other refuses to. The Ravens win with big defense and little offense. In contrast, the Colts win with big offense and little defense. We have neither, and therefore we don\'t win at all...

Our entire team looks like carp... ;)

[Edited on 11/12/2004 by mutineer10]

[Edited on 11/12/2004 by mutineer10]

Brooks
 

Big....fat.....stinky.....carp :yes:

Yeah, I wasn\'t making excuses for the defense, we know they suck. They\'ve progressively gotten worse over the past three years. But, I felt like pointing out a few things concerning the offense, especially the average t.o.p., which blew my mind.

Brooks
 

:thumbsup: :rollinglaugh:

Brooks
 

It seems to me that both sides of the ball bear equal blame and/or praise for whatever bad or good comes out. What is especially troubling to me is that in the Mora/Hebert years, the defense carried the offense and the offense played ball to keep it close so that the defense could both rest and make big plays.

I would submit to you that this entire franchise is not really a team in the strict sense of the word, but two distinctly different sets of individuals on the field at one time. If you care to watch the sidelines (when the camera shows them) you see Brooks, clowning and playing grabass with the reserves, instead of watching the game and being a part of the team. I realize that the O line gets a quick coaching session right after leaving the field, but the rest of the offense doesn\'t. It looks like that the offense is saying: \"oh well, we get a rest now, so let\'s sit on our can while the defense struggles. That creates a situation in which the defense is playing the other team and their own offense, because the offense is appathetic to what\'s going on.

When the offense is on the field, watch where Charles Grant is. Right on the sideline, cheering them on. Others in the defense are doing the same. Grant as much as anyone has the right to sit on his can with what he produces on the field. This kid has fire and heart. He will be the driving force on D next year. He has taken what Pease has done for him to heart, and it shows. He should be better against the run next year assuming that Pease stays, and I hope to God he does.

What I\'m getting at is that since Brooks don\'t care, why should the rest of the offense? Attitude shows in body language and behavior as well as words. Brooks shows me what kind of leader he is in his behavior on the sideline much more that in the huddle. And, as you may guess, my opinion is that He ain\'t much. :mad:

Brooks
 

RDOX,

While I agree with most of what you say, and I think, by in large, you\'re VERY right about the schism on the \"team\", I can\'t let this one go:

Because it is their team too!

For cryin\' out loud. This idea that the rest of the guys on the O do whatever Brooks does, act the way he does, are completely lead by his example, and so on, makes them sound like big five year olds.

These guys are men. They\'re professionals. They have a job to do. The idea that one bad apple spoils the other apples is crazy, even if the idea that one bad apple spoils the lot is true. There is a huge difference there. Brooks may not be doing his part to help us win, or inspire other, etc. However, that doesn\'t make it the case that the rest of these guys can\'t try, can\'t rise above, can\'t lead by their own example.

I suppose I just don\'t understand the argument. Let\'s say that Brooks has no heart. Why in the world would this have anything to do with whether or not other guys have any heart? Either their mindless boobs, who are no better than five year olds, OR they have no excuse for caving just because Brooks does.

Either way, if it is true that the ENTIRE offensive squad is that affected by one guy, I say fire them all - they\'re not the kind of player we want on this team.

Brooks
 

No, it doesn\'t, but it doesn\'t bother me. After last season, Billy went into hiding - think it had anything to do with that 13-3 prediction? LOL.... oh, wait, just kidding. ;)

Yeah, you and SF both... (and Danno, LMAO). Think being down by 20 in the first or second quarter of, oh, I dunno, ever game for a month or more MIGHT have something to do with Deuce\'s production? Think and early season injury followed by 10 to 15 touches a game all when playing from way behind might keep the guy from hitting the groove?? Thank the lord Billy\'s not calling the shots folks. You\'d have Haslett and Brooks for life - get rid of those crazy losers like Deuce, Roaf, and Turley - cut those over the hill players like Horn... LMAO... uh, just kidding?

Wait, you mean Billy thinks AB is the cure to all of the Saints woes? AB is the best QB in NFL history? This team is letting AB down and keeping him from the 13-3 record he deserves. ROFLMAO... er... kid... kidding?

Anybody want to bet he doesn\'t answer this one?

Billy: I associate the word loser with the name Manning. The Mannings are all losers.
Whodat: Hey Bill, would you trade AB straight up for Peyton?
Billy: Yeah, I would. See Whodat, I tell it like it is!

Yeah, you got me there. LOL.

Brooks
 

Sheesh guys. Let the Manning thing go. Everyone else here can see that Billy was wrong on that one - is there any pressing need to get him to admit it?

I\'m not defending him here, since, as far as I\'m concerned, his post here didn\'t add very much, and this thread was going quite well. I\'m just suggesting that there are some points that are worth letting die.


But not this one: Farve and Brooks can both throw a football.

:poke:

Ok, honestly, just kidding on that last point, but it makes me laugh. You\'ll give me that small pleasure, right?

Brooks
 

I think we\'ve seen the big fish enough...
And let the congragation say AMEN!

SFIAH

Brooks
 

AMEN!!!!! :smile_argue:

Brooks
 

Amen............. and

May the Lord bless you
With blessings that never end.

(if you are that way inclined... If not, chill)

Brooks
 

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/200...rt2/index.html

Nice to see that Peter King can sum up Brooks so handily. He can be ok, and then do the most jaw droppingly dumb things. One of the most dismal defenses in NFL history won yesterday\'s game. Our statistically amazing QB didn\'t seem to have much to do with the win.

Go figure.

Brooks
 

I dabbled with this on another post, but it fits in greater depth here. If we choose to save a little money by not franchising Darren Howard, there are a few neglected - but talented - guys out there who we might be able to pick up on the cheap, assuming we deal Aaron Brooks. Some have been mentioned before, but not really discussed at any length, so here goes:

Jon Kitna - Lost his job to blue-chipper Carson Palmer after posting the best season of his career. He\'s still relatively young, has a great arm, and seems to have finally matured. Now wasting away on the Bengals bench. A change of scenery and a chance to prove himself might pay off big for some lucky team who takes a chance on him.

Trent Dilfer - a Super Bowl winner who is the very definition of a \"game manager.\" He\'s never posted big stats, nor does his arm strength strike fear in the hearts of NFL defenses, but the guy is a steady veteran who finds a way to win games. He could provide the leadership our offense needs.

Kurt Warner - Oh, how the mighty have fallen. Injuries, and a botched comeback attempt behind the NFL\'s worst O-line (NYG), have made a mockery of Warner\'s past success. Still, with ample talent surrounding him and a decent O-line in front of him, there may be untapped potential left in this guy. I think he\'s still got a few years left, and he\'ll probably be unemployed again after this season (NYG only gave him a 1-year deal). Warner wants to prove he can still shine, and if he can he\'d be a steal.

Mike McMahon - I\'m not as sold on this guy as some folks are. I don\'t like Joey Harrington either, and a guy who can\'t take Harrington\'s job hardly seems like an upgrade. Still, others seem to think this guy has a lot of potential, so maybe there\'s something I don\'t see. Either way, we could probably get a good price for him.

David Garrard - Another guy I\'m not really sold on. Has a nice arm, but seems to have \"happy feet\" as well. A little young and raw for my taste, but could have future potential with the right coaching and development. He filled in pretty well when Leftwich went out a few weeks ago.

Jay Fiedler - My resident \"dark horse\" QB candidate, Fiedler has taken alot of undue blame starting for a horrible offense in Miami. He lost his job this year when some idiot in the Dolphins front office got a crush on A.J. Feeley, a guy I wouldn\'t want just by his name. Fiedler has never had much talent to work with, has played behind a perpetually awful O-line, and still (with an ample running game) won 10 games in Miami last season. He\'s another experienced guy with something to prove, and might surprise if given the chance.

These are just some possibilities I was kicking around in my head. Feel free to debate or add as you like...

Brooks
 

After watching Volek in relief of McNair the last few weeks I\'m wondering if the Titans will give us Fisher and Volek for Haslett and Brooks straight up! LOL :)

Brooks
 

WE COULD ONLY HOPE!!!!!!! :o :exclam:

Brooks
 

Im sorry, but did he say Jay Fieldler. I agree with some of these to an extent. Kitna, yes, good guy who has had a crappy team with no help. But the guy I am stoked about, is David Garrard. The guy is a gamer. I see him as a Steve Mcnair type player. Seems very \"sturdy\". We need to make a pass at him this offseason. Drop Bouman, and let Brooks and Garrard battle it out this offseason. That should make all the pro-Brooks and Brooks-haters happy. But, by all means, we all know Brooks is not the reason for the Saints problems. That should start something.............

Brooks
 

Yup, he said Jay Fiedler...

As for Volek, I\'m starting to believe the Ttians will actually keep the guy and even start him if McNair retires. Don\'t forget, Volek\'s contract expired last season, and he turned down more money to stay with the Titans. For better or worse, he may be rewarded with a starting job next season...

That being said, I don\'t like him. Focuses on one WR, doesn\'t check off, makes some questionable throws. It\'s a testament to how good Drew Bennett really is that he caught so many of those ducks Volek tossed in his vicinity on Monday night...

Brooks
 

Kitna is an interesting candidate. If the money was right I\'d be ok with him. However, we really have to do something with the offensive line first and foremost.

Brooks
 

mutineer as far as fieldler i just dont see him as much more then a back up. at the same time i liked him when he was with philly before they cuit him. but bro talking about feeley he really isnt worth much which makes me wonder how much of it is a system. because feely looked great for philly the year mcnabb got hurt. if it is a system then that would mean we dont have the coaching or the players. because philly either has better players or better coaching or both then we do.

Brooks
 

The ESPN commentators tonight sure seem to be giving Jake Delhomme a lot of credit for Carolina\'s turn around and 5 game win streak. After all, Delhomme doesn\'t have 3 RBs, every player on his line, and his #1 WR... and their defense, which has started playing better, has been much less disruptive this year than last... interesting - wasn\'t jake nothing with out all the supporting cast? LOL.

Brooks
 

well and dont forget that great throw in ot to help them loose.
he is playing better then brooks this year though.
but be honest make it brooks that throws that int in ot and your all over him arent you

Brooks
 

The difference is spk is that if that fumble in regulation on the goaline that Jake picked up and tried to run was AB, it would have been Falcons ball. When have you seen AB win a game without Deuce, Horn, Stecker, and Grant, which is what Jake has done for 5 straight weeks. Weren\'t they down by two tds and his passing brought them to within one before that Peppers TD? Do you see AB doing that? Do you see him on the sideline looking like he wants to cry when he makes a bad play like Jake did? Did you see his best receiver, Muhammed was out on that play? AB sucks, let\'s move on. Nothing Jake did in that game makes me feel AB is even in his league anymore, and I was never a Jake verses Aaron guy until this season. I always gave AB the benefit of the doubt.