NFLPA files grievance against New Orleans Saints on behalf of tight end Jimmy Graham, source says

05-08-2014, 04:01 PM

Originally Posted by dizzle88

Oak, you know quite a lot about this stuff so I thought I'd ask a question to clear this jimmy graham thing up for me.

Regardless of what the league says he is - a WR/TE, what happens when the franchise tag figure comes back if a long term deal is not done?

The main reason I ask is because an article I read recently, said if a team puts an offer in for him and we don't match we get there 2015 and 2016 first round picks? Is this correct?

I'll tell you how I interpret this and the CBA in regards to this, there are separate and distinct items which have to be processed in order for it to make sense.

First and foremost Jimmy Graham is a Free Agent, and the non-exclusive Franchise Tag makes him a "restricted" free agent because there is a right of first refusal by the Saints. Make sense?

Ok

May 2nd was the last day a restricted free agent could sign an offer sheet with another club.

May 7th was the deadline for the Right of First Refusal for Clubs that had restricted free agents that signed offer sheets.

So.... To answer your question, the Draft picks for Jimmy ship sailed last Friday.

Now I know a few people are upset that Jimmy waited just before the draft to file the grievance.

I don't think that is the case, I believe Jimmy and his agent waited until the offer sheet period was over and then filed the grievance which just so happens to be right before the draft. The reason is that Jimmy didn't want a ruling stating his tag was worth 7m as a TE while he was negotiating with other teams. All they would have to offer is 8m to beat what he would make for his tag. He also wanted to make sure he didn't have to battle over his Tag designation with the Saints unless it was absolutely necessary.

Help any? I know it is contradictory to 90% that is out there, but I have experience in negotiating and interpreting contract T&C and that is how I see it all. It's the only scenario that makes complete sense to me from start to finish.

AsylumGuido · 05-08-2014, 04:14 PM

Originally Posted by TheOak

I'll tell you how I interpret this and the CBA in regards to this, there are separate and distinct items which have to be processed in order for it to make sense.

First and foremost Jimmy Graham is a Free Agent, and the non-exclusive Franchise Tag makes him a "restricted" free agent because there is a right of first refusal by the Saints. Make sense?

Ok

May 2nd was the last day a restricted free agent could sign an offer sheet with another club.

May 7th was the deadline for the Right of First Refusal for Clubs that had restricted free agents that signed offer sheets.

So.... To answer your question, the Draft picks for Jimmy ship sailed last Friday.

Now I know a few people are upset that Jimmy waited just before the draft to file the grievance.

I don't think that is the case, I believe Jimmy and his agent waited until the offer sheet period was over and then filed the grievance which just so happens to be right before the draft. The reason is that Jimmy didn't want a ruling stating his tag was worth 7m as a TE while he was negotiating with other teams. All they would have to offer is 8m to beat what he would make for his tag. He also wanted to make sure he didn't have to battle over his Tag designation with the Saints unless it was absolutely necessary.

Help any? I know it is contradictory to 90% that is out there, but I have experience in negotiating and interpreting contract T&C and that is how I see it all. It's the only scenario that makes complete sense to me from start to finish.

So, according to that interpretation there are only three distinct scenarios:

1. Graham and the Saints come to an agreement on a new deal.

2. Graham agrees to sign the Franchise Tag (be it as a WR or a TE).

3. Graham refuses to sign the Franchise Tag and is forced to sit out the full NFL year.

Graham would not be available to any other NFL franchise unless signed via new deal or tag and offered as a trade.

Correct?

burningmetal · 05-08-2014, 04:18 PM

Jimmy, his agent and the NFLPA can all shove it at this point.

Hey, I've decided that I'm a wide receiver. Even though I don't play in the league, I've decided that a WR is what I want to be, so I should be paid like one. I don't have any 1,000 yard seasons, but like Jimmy, I also have not produced so much as a fart in a big game recently. If that doesn't win me this case, then I think I'll just sue the Saints or something... Yeah.

He has all the talent in the world and at times is exciting to watch, but if he can't come through when we need him the most then what difference does it really make if he goes? In a perfect world I'd like to keep him and have him step up his game. But his attitude right now suggests to me that he cares more about his ego than his game, and teammates. So I don't have any confidence that he'll shake his disappearing act.

TheOak · 05-08-2014, 04:19 PM

Originally Posted by AsylumGuido

So, according to that interpretation there are only three distinct scenarios:

1. Graham and the Saints come to an agreement on a new deal.

2. Graham agrees to sign the Franchise Tag (be it as a WR or a TE).

3. Graham refuses to sign the Franchise Tag and is forced to sit out the full NFL year.

Graham would not be available to any other NFL franchise unless signed via new deal or tag and offered as a trade.

Correct?

4. NFLPA wins arbitration, Loomis decides 12m is too much for Graham and he rescinds the Franchise Tag making Gram a Free Agent with no restrictions. We gain 7m in cap space.

AsylumGuido · 05-08-2014, 04:23 PM

Originally Posted by TheOak

4. NFLPA wins arbitration, Loomis decides 12m is too much for Graham and he rescinds the Franchise Tag making Gram a Free Agent with no restrictions. We gain 7m in cap space.

There is that, of course.

TheOak · 05-08-2014, 04:30 PM

Originally Posted by AsylumGuido

There is that, of course.

While insignificant to most, it's the only leverage that Loomis has.

This deep into free agency and post draft would leave Graham with considerably fewer options for a new team. While there are teams left with cap space, most are not places Jimmy would want t go.

lee909 · 05-10-2014, 06:34 PM

Katherine Terrell ‏@Kat_Terrell 22m
Loomis said he knows there's a timeframe from Jimmy Graham hearing and it's about a month.

SaintFanInATLHELL · 05-10-2014, 10:38 PM

Originally Posted by burningmetal

Jimmy, his agent and the NFLPA can all shove it at this point.

Hey, I've decided that I'm a wide receiver. Even though I don't play in the league, I've decided that a WR is what I want to be, so I should be paid like one. I don't have any 1,000 yard seasons, but like Jimmy, I also have not produced so much as a fart in a big game recently. If that doesn't win me this case, then I think I'll just sue the Saints or something... Yeah.

He has all the talent in the world and at times is exciting to watch, but if he can't come through when we need him the most then what difference does it really make if he goes? In a perfect world I'd like to keep him and have him step up his game. But his attitude right now suggests to me that he cares more about his ego than his game, and teammates. So I don't have any confidence that he'll shake his disappearing act.

I find it really interesting how personally some fans seem to be taking this issue.

It's just business. As The Oak stated in a earlier post, where did the crazy idea that JG cares more about his ego come from?

All of this situation is a business arrangement between parties negotiating a contract. There are actually at least 4 parties involved: JG, The Saints, The NFL, and the NFLPA. Each is rightly trying to maximize the value of their position. It's not ego, it's just plain common sense.

If I come to purchase a car from you, I fully expect you to try to negotiate the highest price you can get for it. And you can fully expect that I will try to get the lowest price. There's no ego involved with that process.

As for disappearing, I think the charge is a bit disingenuous on a couple of levels. First and foremost, JG was the most potent weapon in the Saints offense last year. This means that each and every opponent's goal was to limit his catches, yards, and TDs. Many tried. Few succeded.

The second more important issue is that the guy did this with an injured foot. He still had over 70 catches, and 16TDs over the course of the season.

It's amazing how much production he still gets even though he is bracketed most of the time.

I'm just wondering aloud if the frustration with the process translates to this attitude towards JG. I was shaking my head two years ago when there was the same discussion about Brees.

Personally I enjoy to business aspects of football. It's interesting to watch the negotiation process and attempt to predict how the parties will react. I outlined the schedule back in February. AFAICT except for the false April 22nd deadline on the grievance, the process is right on schedule.

I really want to understand why trying to maximize the value of your services is an "ego" thing? And why fans simply expect each and every player to take the "hometown discount" contract simply because the salaries are in the millions, and that the fans are rabid about the team?

I think folks sometime miss the psychology of feeling underpaid. It causes resentment and lessens productivity.

The simple fact is that JG is the best TE (and yes I believe he's a TE) in the game. Anything less than Gronk's contract, which looks like it's split into two 3 year contracts, really should be a non starter.

I just wonder if anyone here would honestly not file a piece of paper in order to get a 25% raise. I would. It's just business.

SFIAH

05-08-2014, 04:01 PM	#51
Threaded by TheOak 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Cypress Tx. Posts: 19,026 Rating: (0 votes - average) Originally Posted by dizzle88 Oak, you know quite a lot about this stuff so I thought I'd ask a question to clear this jimmy graham thing up for me. Regardless of what the league says he is - a WR/TE, what happens when the franchise tag figure comes back if a long term deal is not done? The main reason I ask is because an article I read recently, said if a team puts an offer in for him and we don't match we get there 2015 and 2016 first round picks? Is this correct? I'll tell you how I interpret this and the CBA in regards to this, there are separate and distinct items which have to be processed in order for it to make sense. First and foremost Jimmy Graham is a Free Agent, and the non-exclusive Franchise Tag makes him a "restricted" free agent because there is a right of first refusal by the Saints. Make sense? Ok May 2nd was the last day a restricted free agent could sign an offer sheet with another club. May 7th was the deadline for the Right of First Refusal for Clubs that had restricted free agents that signed offer sheets. So.... To answer your question, the Draft picks for Jimmy ship sailed last Friday. Now I know a few people are upset that Jimmy waited just before the draft to file the grievance. I don't think that is the case, I believe Jimmy and his agent waited until the offer sheet period was over and then filed the grievance which just so happens to be right before the draft. The reason is that Jimmy didn't want a ruling stating his tag was worth 7m as a TE while he was negotiating with other teams. All they would have to offer is 8m to beat what he would make for his tag. He also wanted to make sure he didn't have to battle over his Tag designation with the Saints unless it was absolutely necessary. Help any? I know it is contradictory to 90% that is out there, but I have experience in negotiating and interpreting contract T&C and that is how I see it all. It's the only scenario that makes complete sense to me from start to finish. SaintFanInATLHELL, B_Dub_Saint and dizzle88 like this. Last edited by TheOak; 05-08-2014 at 04:04 PM..
Views: 21429

05-08-2014, 04:14 PM	#52
AsylumGuido 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Bossier City, LA Posts: 26,274	Re: NFLPA files grievance against New Orleans Saints on behalf of tight end Jimmy... Originally Posted by TheOak I'll tell you how I interpret this and the CBA in regards to this, there are separate and distinct items which have to be processed in order for it to make sense. First and foremost Jimmy Graham is a Free Agent, and the non-exclusive Franchise Tag makes him a "restricted" free agent because there is a right of first refusal by the Saints. Make sense? Ok May 2nd was the last day a restricted free agent could sign an offer sheet with another club. May 7th was the deadline for the Right of First Refusal for Clubs that had restricted free agents that signed offer sheets. So.... To answer your question, the Draft picks for Jimmy ship sailed last Friday. Now I know a few people are upset that Jimmy waited just before the draft to file the grievance. I don't think that is the case, I believe Jimmy and his agent waited until the offer sheet period was over and then filed the grievance which just so happens to be right before the draft. The reason is that Jimmy didn't want a ruling stating his tag was worth 7m as a TE while he was negotiating with other teams. All they would have to offer is 8m to beat what he would make for his tag. He also wanted to make sure he didn't have to battle over his Tag designation with the Saints unless it was absolutely necessary. Help any? I know it is contradictory to 90% that is out there, but I have experience in negotiating and interpreting contract T&C and that is how I see it all. It's the only scenario that makes complete sense to me from start to finish. So, according to that interpretation there are only three distinct scenarios: 1. Graham and the Saints come to an agreement on a new deal. 2. Graham agrees to sign the Franchise Tag (be it as a WR or a TE). 3. Graham refuses to sign the Franchise Tag and is forced to sit out the full NFL year. Graham would not be available to any other NFL franchise unless signed via new deal or tag and offered as a trade. Correct?

05-08-2014, 04:18 PM	#53
burningmetal 1000 Posts + Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 3,923 Blog Entries: 3	Re: NFLPA files grievance against New Orleans Saints on behalf of tight end Jimmy Graham, source says Jimmy, his agent and the NFLPA can all shove it at this point. Hey, I've decided that I'm a wide receiver. Even though I don't play in the league, I've decided that a WR is what I want to be, so I should be paid like one. I don't have any 1,000 yard seasons, but like Jimmy, I also have not produced so much as a fart in a big game recently. If that doesn't win me this case, then I think I'll just sue the Saints or something... Yeah. He has all the talent in the world and at times is exciting to watch, but if he can't come through when we need him the most then what difference does it really make if he goes? In a perfect world I'd like to keep him and have him step up his game. But his attitude right now suggests to me that he cares more about his ego than his game, and teammates. So I don't have any confidence that he'll shake his disappearing act.
	If I had a nickel for every time I heard that, the NFL would fine and suspend me.

05-08-2014, 04:19 PM	#54
TheOak 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Cypress Tx. Posts: 19,026	Re: NFLPA files grievance against New Orleans Saints on behalf of tight end Jimmy... Originally Posted by AsylumGuido So, according to that interpretation there are only three distinct scenarios: 1. Graham and the Saints come to an agreement on a new deal. 2. Graham agrees to sign the Franchise Tag (be it as a WR or a TE). 3. Graham refuses to sign the Franchise Tag and is forced to sit out the full NFL year. Graham would not be available to any other NFL franchise unless signed via new deal or tag and offered as a trade. Correct? 4. NFLPA wins arbitration, Loomis decides 12m is too much for Graham and he rescinds the Franchise Tag making Gram a Free Agent with no restrictions. We gain 7m in cap space.

05-08-2014, 04:23 PM	#55
AsylumGuido 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Bossier City, LA Posts: 26,274	Re: NFLPA files grievance against New Orleans Saints on behalf of tight end Jimmy... Originally Posted by TheOak 4. NFLPA wins arbitration, Loomis decides 12m is too much for Graham and he rescinds the Franchise Tag making Gram a Free Agent with no restrictions. We gain 7m in cap space. There is that, of course. TheOak likes this.

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05-08-2014, 04:30 PM	#56
TheOak 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Cypress Tx. Posts: 19,026	Re: NFLPA files grievance against New Orleans Saints on behalf of tight end Jimmy... Originally Posted by AsylumGuido There is that, of course. While insignificant to most, it's the only leverage that Loomis has. This deep into free agency and post draft would leave Graham with considerably fewer options for a new team. While there are teams left with cap space, most are not places Jimmy would want t go. Danno and B_Dub_Saint like this.

05-10-2014, 06:34 PM	#57
lee909 Site Donor 2015 Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: Watford England Posts: 8,809 Blog Entries: 1	Re: NFLPA files grievance against New Orleans Saints on behalf of tight end Jimmy Graham, source says Katherine Terrell ‏@Kat_Terrell 22m Loomis said he knows there's a timeframe from Jimmy Graham hearing and it's about a month.

05-10-2014, 10:38 PM	#58
SaintFanInATLHELL The Professor Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Lithonia, GA Posts: 2,776	Re: NFLPA files grievance against New Orleans Saints on behalf of tight end Jimmy Graham, source says Originally Posted by burningmetal Jimmy, his agent and the NFLPA can all shove it at this point. Hey, I've decided that I'm a wide receiver. Even though I don't play in the league, I've decided that a WR is what I want to be, so I should be paid like one. I don't have any 1,000 yard seasons, but like Jimmy, I also have not produced so much as a fart in a big game recently. If that doesn't win me this case, then I think I'll just sue the Saints or something... Yeah. He has all the talent in the world and at times is exciting to watch, but if he can't come through when we need him the most then what difference does it really make if he goes? In a perfect world I'd like to keep him and have him step up his game. But his attitude right now suggests to me that he cares more about his ego than his game, and teammates. So I don't have any confidence that he'll shake his disappearing act. I find it really interesting how personally some fans seem to be taking this issue. It's just business. As The Oak stated in a earlier post, where did the crazy idea that JG cares more about his ego come from? All of this situation is a business arrangement between parties negotiating a contract. There are actually at least 4 parties involved: JG, The Saints, The NFL, and the NFLPA. Each is rightly trying to maximize the value of their position. It's not ego, it's just plain common sense. If I come to purchase a car from you, I fully expect you to try to negotiate the highest price you can get for it. And you can fully expect that I will try to get the lowest price. There's no ego involved with that process. As for disappearing, I think the charge is a bit disingenuous on a couple of levels. First and foremost, JG was the most potent weapon in the Saints offense last year. This means that each and every opponent's goal was to limit his catches, yards, and TDs. Many tried. Few succeded. The second more important issue is that the guy did this with an injured foot. He still had over 70 catches, and 16TDs over the course of the season. It's amazing how much production he still gets even though he is bracketed most of the time. I'm just wondering aloud if the frustration with the process translates to this attitude towards JG. I was shaking my head two years ago when there was the same discussion about Brees. Personally I enjoy to business aspects of football. It's interesting to watch the negotiation process and attempt to predict how the parties will react. I outlined the schedule back in February. AFAICT except for the false April 22nd deadline on the grievance, the process is right on schedule. I really want to understand why trying to maximize the value of your services is an "ego" thing? And why fans simply expect each and every player to take the "hometown discount" contract simply because the salaries are in the millions, and that the fans are rabid about the team? I think folks sometime miss the psychology of feeling underpaid. It causes resentment and lessens productivity. The simple fact is that JG is the best TE (and yes I believe he's a TE) in the game. Anything less than Gronk's contract, which looks like it's split into two 3 year contracts, really should be a non starter. I just wonder if anyone here would honestly not file a piece of paper in order to get a 25% raise. I would. It's just business. SFIAH B_Dub_Saint, Utah_Saint and saintsfan403 like this.
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