Question of the week: Strive for playoffs or fold for draft
 

It is kind of a bizarre question. Do you guys really think a team.coaching staff etc... have ever been told to lose on purpose, barring of course scandalous gambling. But over a draft pick. But I would assure you that if a team or coaching staff decided to collectively lose it would be newsworthy. I don\'t think we will make the playoffs. I dont think we will have a greta draft pick either. The Saints will win 2 more games and their appears to be quite a bottleneck at that record. Look at our division alone. Rudy didnt quit. Not that that has a damn thing to do with anything here but I needed to say it.

[Edited on 2/12/2004 by subguy]

Question of the week: Strive for playoffs or fold for draft
 

OK. That\'s my fault. I poorly defined the term.

What I meant was should the Saints check out their prospects and try new schemes for the remainder of the season. Some simple examples:

1) Play Henderson both at receiver and kick returner.
2) Put Stinchcomb in at tackle.
3) Play lazy Sully for a full game.
4) Try blitzing 70 percent of the plays.
5) Give Bowman and extended tryout along with Stecker.
6) Throw the ball downfield on first and second down to Stallworth.
7) Play Micheal Lewis at receiver for a whole game.
8) Play Mitchell at safety. Give him a real chance.
9) Pull in practice squad players for at least one real game and play them.

Now there obviously are reasons why the coaching staff doesn\'t make these changes. It\'s because they believe that changes like these doesn\'t give the team the best chance to win. But being mediocre for a 4th consecutive season isn\'t going to be real productive. Playing the way we\'ve been playing leads to a 6-10 or 7-9 season, out of the playoffs, and a sucky draft pick to boot.

Trying something different isn\'t quitting. Giving other players a chance isn\'t quitting. The players that you\'ve named above have nothing to prove in the NFL.

Of course something interesting may happen. Changes may catch a spark. Playing a different defensive scheme may improve the overall defense. Throwing the ball downfield to Stallworth, Henderson, or Lewis may spark the offense.

But 2-3 or 3-2 is a virtually worthless record for the remainder of the season. We need an extreme record one way or the other, like 5-0 or 0-5.

All I\'m asking is why not take a gamble? Playing safe predictible football has gotten the Saints absolutely nowhere this year, or in the 3 years previous. The last time the Saints played on the edge was in 2000. We all know what happened then.

In fact doing this will help the coaches too. It\'ll show whatever innovations that Haslett, McCarthy, and ... (oh wait Venturi wouldn\'t know an innovation if it smacked him upside the head.) have up their sleeves.

Not going to the playoffs, not getting a top pick, not seeing what other players can do, is boring as all get out.

Why not take a chance?

SFIAH

Question of the week: Strive for playoffs or fold for draft
 

Bingo! If nothing else it\'ll get all of these folks real game film in real game situations against teams who are in fact still trying to get into the playoffs.

In my mind, the collection of the offensive last drives of both the offense (can\'t make a 1st down to seal the game) and defense (can\'t stop the known playmakers of the Falcons when it counted most) sealed it for me. A playoff caliber team would have found a way to win that game last week. BTW the playoff caliber team did find a way to win that game last week.

So why just play out the string? What purpose does it serve?

I\'m no longer on the fence with this. Truthfully I don\'t beleve that the Saints are consistent enough to go 4-1 or 5-0 down the stretch. The defense is too flimsy and the offense is too flaky, especially in the 1st quarter.

If such a decision were to be made, it would need to be made now. Carolina is by far the hottest non playoff team in the NFC, and we get them twice down the stretch. The absolute worst thing that could happen is to beat these guys next week, then go into the typical December swoon.

I don\'t think you can\'t wait for official elimination. The way that the West has been [not] playing, and the inconsistency of Dallas, Carolina, and TB, it\'s possible to still be in it at week 15 at 6-8.

So it decision time for the Saints. It has to be put up or shut up. Go 5-0 with the players we have or play new players.

I vote play new players.

SFIAH

[Edited on 2/12/2004 by SaintFanInATLHELL]

Question of the week: Strive for playoffs or fold for draft
 

Who says we can forfeit? Its perfectly legall to forfeit and can be done. Thats essentially what we are discussing here. If we are talking about sending bodies out to see what they can do, hell I can play RB so you can sit Deuce. Been a few years but what the heck I\'ll give it a shot again.

Question of the week: Strive for playoffs or fold for draft
 

It\'s not that newsworthy. Denny Green benched his annoited starting QB a couple of weeks ago. McMahon got a chance to play a half recently. The Giants threw in their presumptive franchise QB midseason. OK the last one was newsworthy.

7-9 doesn\'t get the last playoff spot. it\'ll be 8-8 at the very least, 9-7 most likely. And the #6 wild card seed isn\'t going anywhere in these playoffs. It means consecutive games against GB (I\'m betting that GB will win the division because Minnesota\'s defense is too suspect) and then the Eagles, who will likely be 15-1 by the time it\'s all over. There\'s no shot with the worst defense in the league.

Fold doesn\'t mean quit. Fold, or tank, or whatever verb you choose, means to try a different direction for the rest of the season. The direction that the Saints choose for this season hasn\'t gotten them anywhere. In the playoffs this year in the NFC, only the #5 seed has a real shot from the WC group. And Minnesota/GB division loser is firmly entrenched in that spot.

Play different players. Try different schemes. Run different plays.

Do something different. If it doesn\'t work out then at least the next coach (and I really hope the next GM, but I guess we\'re stuck with Dumba$$, oops I\'m mean Loomis... :D) will have an idea about the rest of the players on the team, and the potential of a top 5 draft pick to boot.

SFIAH

Question of the week: Strive for playoffs or fold for draft
 

definitely strive for the pick for next year. doesn\'t make sense to squeak into the playoffs at 8-8 to be demolished and haslett keep his job.

Question of the week: Strive for playoffs or fold for draft
 

I\'m pretty sure the next coach won\'t need you on the squad next year.

I surprised to find so many folks upset about legitimate personell/scheme evaluation during the season. Seasons come and go, but franchises persist. The current team has already given away the 3-4 wins required to be considered playoff caliber, with the last one last week the absolute worst.

I\'m just trying to figure out why not start evaluating talent for next year. Why not get on tape the players you have, so that the next group can figure out whether or not they are worth keeping.

This is the reason I called for Haslett\'s head after the TB loss. In an interim coach situation, despite Robiskie\'s protests to the contrary, is talent and coach evaluation for the next group coming in.

Can someone explain why 7-9, no playoffs, mediocre pick, is somehow better than getting your backups some significant playing time, getting them on film, and getting a chance at a much much better pick?

SFIAH

Question of the week: Strive for playoffs or fold for draft
 

There is one startlingly obvious oversight that seems to have slipped past all of you. Haslett is on the block, you must be friggin nuts if you think for one instant he will cater to any \"auditions\" for the next staff.

END OF STORY.

P.S. We go 2-3 with all our first stringers, I will bet any money on this, so stop blowing hot air that doesn\'t have a snowballs chance in hell of happening. My guarantee is only for the 1st stringers, the 2-3 part who knows.

Question of the week: Strive for playoffs or fold for draft
 

SFIAH, get out of my head. lol We have so many \"I never wanna see my team lose\" guys on here it\'s maddening. Why does anyone wanna be 7-9 or 8-8 again? Why? I am with you all the way, either 5-0 or 0-5. None of this middling crap they do all the time. I wanna see what Henderson and Stinchcomb can do also. I wanna see what Leisle can do. Nothing good is gonna happen even if we do squeak into the playoffs. Name one division leading team we can beat on the road. It\'s so frustrating to have so many wanting to play the \"we still have a shot at the playoffs card\" but not wanting to get ridiculed so not coming right out and saying it. If that\'s what you think, say it. Don\'t give me this \"we play to win the games\" stuff. Have you guys been watching this team the last 4 years? Where\'s the winning? It\'s very troubling that we have come to accept 7-9 as a respectable record now. It is very troubling that we would prefer to pick in the late first round again cause this staff gaffed on Sullivan when impact players were there for the taking, and we all know who they are.

SO say we lose out and we somehow get Derrick Johnson in the draft, the same \"I still wanna win some games\" people will be hailing him as the next Pat Swilling and lauding the pick as one of the best ever. Oh, but the draft is a crap shoot. Come on man.

Question of the week: Strive for playoffs or fold for draft
 

What\'s the problem with people forming different opinions than you? Maybe it\'s my competitive nature, but I never want to see my team lose, regardless of the circumstances.

Who said they did? You are looking at it from a season standpoint, I’m looking at it, game to game.

So do I, actually. Who said they can’t win by starting these players. Is it “either-or�? I can’t have both? I’m a greedy bastard, I want it all, and I want it now.

Honestly, I can’t say there is one we could beat. But what I want, and my perception of reality have been opposite ends of the spectrum after our third loss.

You’re making so many broad assumptions in this paragraph, I don’t know where to begin. So all the people here that want their team to win, secretly harbor distorted views of reality in that we can somehow make the playoffs? Who are you kidding? I would prefer to pick in the late first round this next draft because of Sullivan? When I sit down and watch a game, the draft is the last thing on my mind. Is it really that hard to understand that some just want their team to win?

Either-or, eh? That statement makes no sense. It’s like saying, you PAID for the tickets to the game, but don’t booo- your money is a direct endorsement of the team, so you don’t have that privilege. I understand your reasoning for wanting to lose out, so that it will ensure the Saints will have a top 5 pick. But I don’t agree with it. Can we agree to disagree, and quit throwing all the extra’s in because you don’t understand them?

Question of the week: Strive for playoffs or fold for draft
 

Well, that was a lot to read.

First, Whodi, I did read your post; I read all of your posts. I consider you a smart guy and a good poster. That said, I think you and I had this very debate several weeks ago and argued it to an impasse (but I could be wrong abou that, it may have been someone else).

Second, I think BnB, sumed it up well right here, so I don\'t have too much more to say about the perspective point (game to game versus season). I think I\'m with BnB here - I\'m in the game to game camp right now.

Third, I think that the most interesting conclusion was come to in this thread, so tell me if you think I got it right:

\"Just lose baby\" is actually a bad strategy for several reasons (demoralization, pride, jobs on the line, etc.); however, there is nothing with a \"try new things\" strategy.

Well, that\'s shocking. If you\'re losing, you should try some new stuff. I agree.

For all you \"realists\" out there, how realistic do you think it is that this coaching staff and these players will happily do things like give starting roles to backups and unknowns. This will make our coaches and starters look like morons. These are professional people who are going to go out and do there job to the best of their ability and do it with pride (at least in most cases - and, as Danno correctly points out, we wouldn\'t want the guys who aren\'t going to do that on our team anyway). Do you think that Duece, Joe, Charles Grant or any of these guys want to ride the bench while some back bencher does their job? Do you really think that won\'t effect how they feel (about the team, the organization, themselves, etc.)? Bah.

So, let me say this. I\'m in favor of trying new things. I just don\'t think that we\'ll see it happen. I also think there are some new things that can be tried, and other things that will actually harm whatever is left here that is good. So, be careful in what you mean when you say \"try new things.\"

Fourth, this stuff about the draft. I agree that there are some players that barring injury or circumstance are pretty well guaranteed to be studs. They are usually found in picks 1-10 or thereabouts. However, there are no certainties. A good player may hold out or ask to be traded if he is sure he\'s going to a loser team with loser players and a history of losing on purpose. Furthermore, stud players can get hurt, quit, and so on.

The draft is a craps shoot, it is. FA, however, isn\'t exactly perfectly safe either, but at least in FA you have NFL experience to look at, a serious advantage over the draft where players haven\'t played a single snap.

What\'s my point? Well, I think that playing for a draft pick is a craps shoot at best. Also, what player THIS YEAR will care who we draft NEXT YEAR, what coach, what owner? It is only fans who ask these questions. Furthermore, even if we do lose out, it isn\'t clear to me that we\'ll get a top five pick. Do you really think that fans of the other teams in our position aren\'t suggesting they lose out too?

There are two unassessable probabilities here: (1) whether our pick will pan out for reasons foreseeable or unforeseeable, and (2) what pick we\'ll get, even if we lose out.

Tack that on to other problems (demoraliztion, professionalism, etc.), and I don\'t see the strength of the argument for the \"just lose baby\" strategy.

Question of the week: Strive for playoffs or fold for draft
 

BNB, I did make sweeping generalizations in what I was saying, but I am so damn frustrated it is unreal. And honestly, I am scared too. Scared somehow someway Haslett will stay. Scared we will muddle through ANOTHER season. Scared we will bungle the draft again. Scared we will miss our need in the draft again. Most of all, scared that I will enter next season with the same feeling as this one, with a lack of hope. A new coach and a high draft pick gives me hope. IT will have me excited about the upcoming season. Right now I am scared that will slip away. Sorry about the generalizations.

Question of the week: Strive for playoffs or fold for draft
 

When you come upon a stray dog, you can always tell if that animal has been abused in the past, by how he will flinch when you raise your hand, regardless if all you are doing is petting him.
Nothing wrong with being scared, we\'re that dog, and the Saints\' organization is the abuser. Maybe they\'ve changed their ways and don\'t abuse us as fans any longer, but we\'re always going to flinch, until we\'re 100% certain that the abuse (losing) is no longer there. How can you not be, for me it\'s been roughly 26 years of it.
Patterns are a trait of the NFL, and I see patterns developing around the current coaching staff, that lead me to believe a change is in our near future. Too many grumblings, the rim shot from the owner after the Bronco\'s game...too much is circulating for me to believe that at the very least, we\'ll see a new offensive and defensive coordinator next year. It\'s hard to justify not doing anything with all the activity going on around this team. That being said, I still believe that this team\'s talents are being underutilized in the current scheme, so to me, a coaching change will have a greater effect as to the overall play, than where we pick in this upcoming draft. Not to say that I don\'t think Derrick Johnson isn\'t an impact player, he appears, to me at least, to be LT reincarnated. Do we have a definite need at linebacker? Absolutely, and he would start as a rookie, no question. But I still believe that we have talent on this team, and I think that if we hire the right person for the coaching positions that are left vacant after this season, we\'ll have someone that can boost those talents at multiple positions, rather than drafting to bolster one.

Question of the week: Strive for playoffs or fold for draft
 

JKool, would you call Denny Green a moron for starting a 7th round rookie and Shaun King when his team wa sin a playoff hunt? I think most would agree Denny Green is no moron. Neither is Tom Coughlin, who replaced Kurt Warner when his team was over .500. Sometimes you gotta see what you got. That being said, there are no replacement for Deuce or Joe or LeCharles on the team, they will never ride the bench. But surely Devery can get in as the 3rd wide receiver, surely Stinchcomb can try right tackle, surely Leisle can try the DT spot. So they have no relevance to the \"try new guys\" argument cause they are stars, doing their jobs I think we all agree, and have no backups to worry about. Plus they are the few on the team who can actually play for the Pro Bowl. So no they would not be benched.

BNB, I guess that is the exact mentality I have. I have been burned too many times, and it has been worse these past 4 years cause the talent is there. The expectations are there. The ability is there. And it is just not happening. At least when they were 3-13, you could point to MANY reasons, lack of overall talent being the most glaring. But we have that talent now, and have for years. And we \"pretend\" to be winners here and there but ALWAYS suffer major letdowns when it looks like we have finally got it together.

This being said, I will still be of the just lose family for the rest of this season, but I respect the fact that many of you will not be members of that fraternity. Kudos to you. I do want us to win the Dallas game though cause I will be there, and I don\'t wanna have to pull my brown paper bag out.

Question of the week: Strive for playoffs or fold for draft
 

i would never say quit. if you have a chance keep going. you never know. i dont think you ever loose on purpose. but i wouldnt want to see us win like our last three games for no reason and end up like 12 spots further down. but thats me. i dont play for the team. if i played for the team i would try to win every week. isnt that just a mans nature. so different from women. we live to compete

Question of the week: Strive for playoffs or fold for draft
 

Whodi,

Good points, as always.

However, I\'m not following you now. Are you in the \"just lose\" camp or the \"just try new things camp\". If you\'re in the just lose camp (as you suggest), then I think arguments given here work well against you - for example, there is no real way to \"tank\" without instructing some players to lose (and you cannot make use of SFIAH\'s strategy, which seemed to be the best version of \"tanking\"). Do you really think that Joe, Deuce, and Grant will take that well? You said no, and so I take your word for it. Now, what do you mean we won\'t play others over our \"stars\"? If we play our \"stars\", they\'ll try to win (if they don\'t, they\'re not stars). Otherwise, we\'ve got to play guys like Henderson over Horn, someone over Grant (and there are players there, we have plenty of DEs), why not move Bentley over to Guard again and give Jacox a chance at C or Stinchcomb? Aren\'t those the kind of changes that you\'d want - to make sure we tank? Do you think if we make our game plan even more ridiculous that the vetrans and \"stars\" won\'t notice that?

I just don\'t see how you can \"not bench the starters\", thus harming them and us in the long and short run, and still think we can \"lose out\" by trying new things. Either you ask our good players to do things that will increase our chance of losing OR you bench them. Either way, it seems like a harm to me.

I\'m in favor of making some small adjustments to see what happens. Let Henderson play, let Leilse play, but if you get too ridiculous, the \"stars\" will see what is going on - they\'re the ones who are not morons.

Question of the week: Strive for playoffs or fold for draft
 

Once again, how you don\'t have to bench your stars. As I pointed out to Euph, they play their hardest every week and we lose anyway, so that doesn\'t need to change. I would be interested in Bentley moving back to guard and letting someone else try center, that was a good thought. But noone sits all their stars. I am saying, put Devery in as the number two or three receiver. How does that affect Horn? Let Leisle start. Who does that hurt? Let Stinchcomb take over for Riley. HE has the most procedure penalties in the league. Who does that hurt? How do any of these suggestions affect Horn, Deuce, or Bentley? Once again, they are playing now and we are losing, but there are young guys NOT at their positions who would can play. Do you guys think Horn has not been here the last 4 years and played his guts out anyway, win or lose? He always plays his guts out. That\'s not gonna change. But at the same time, by making these moves, I am of the opinion we will continue to lose, thus they go hand in hand. They are not from seperate camps. Putting inexperienced players in as starters to get them experience usually means losses. They are symbiotic and thus agree with where I stand.

I REPEAT. DEUCE, HORN, AND BENTLEY PLAY THEIR HEARTS OUT ANYWAY. THERE IS NOONE TO TAKE THEIR POSITIONS. WE STILL LOSE. THERE IS NO REASON FOR EVERYONE TO BRING THEM UP WHEN IT IS SUGGESTED NEW PLAYERS ARE PUT IN. And Kool, I explained to Euph or someone else I used the term \"tank\" incorrectly.

Question of the week: Strive for playoffs or fold for draft
 

Gottcha bud. Too much other stuff going on. I\'m sorry if I made you repeat yourself (I know I find that pretty annoying myself).

So, your point about \"lose out\" then is just this: try a handful of new things, and we\'ll lose anyway. If this is your idea, then I suppose I have no objection. You ought to not put it this way though: we should lose out. That sounds like actively trying to lose. Your plan seems to be more like this: we\'re going to lose either way, so we should merely try and do a few new things.

I guess, I\'m just confused as to why you present your idea the way you do then? Why mention losing as though it is something we should strive for?

Question of the week: Strive for playoffs or fold for draft
 

Because you did not totally misunderstand me Kool. I am for losing cause there are two players in this draft I want bad for the Saints, and they are in a position to get one. A real true impact defensive player to go with Grant and Will Smith and MM. I am also wanting to see Devery and Stinchcomb and Watson play. SO I want the Saints to lose and I want to see the young guys play. They go together. I do NOT want anyone to activley go to players and suggest sinking the ship. I do want young players we drafted to play to get a chance. Losing will come anyway. So you did not misunderstand me, I just want them both. Just to be clear, I do want the Saints to lose cause A) we are going absolutely nowhere this year, B) we have a couple of shots at true studs in the draft and C) Haslett AND his staff will get the boot, definitely, unequivocaly, and without a shadow of a doubt. I don\'t just want staff gone, I want Haslett gone too. Adios muchacho. Don\'t let the door hit ya.......

Question of the week: Strive for playoffs or fold for draft
 

Yes BnB good points.....and when you can snatch the pebbles from my hand you will have learned.

Question of the week: Strive for playoffs or fold for draft
 

You, sir, are no Shaolin Master.

Question of the week: Strive for playoffs or fold for draft
 

nope, your right just your master.... :whip: :jester:

Question of the week: Strive for playoffs or fold for draft
 

bater

Question of the week: Strive for playoffs or fold for draft
 

\"SELL SELL SELL!!! Tank it\" -saintswhodi LOSE ALL GAMES... If you want to tweak things to see what happens then its not SELL SELL SELL, its win baby. If you teak and you win and we find ourselves with the 17-30 pick in the draft how are you going to feel about that?

Tweaking things is commonly used by some teams as in FINDING A WAY TO WIN. Arizona, looking for a way to win on offense by changing QB\'s. Not SELL SELL SELL.

We know what happens when Bently is playing Guard... we didn\'t suck as bad. Bently at Center he has other things to deal with and not 100 percent on blocking although him at guard with what is going wrong with that line just might not help at all anyways.

[Edited on 4/12/2004 by Euphoria]

Question of the week: Strive for playoffs or fold for draft
 

Maybe in the NFL you watch Euph, putting in young players means wins. But in the NFL I have seen, playing young players, especially those who have not played all season, generally denotes losses. Putting LeCharles back at guard puts who exactly at center? Someone not as good as LeCharles. Hello. How does that mean to \"tweak\" for wins? Yeah Arizona tweaked to two straight losses after taking out their starting qb, nice example my man. hahaha You proved my point. Thanks. SELL SELL SELL baby.

Question of the week: Strive for playoffs or fold for draft
 

Bend, twist, bend, twist, everything around so you have something to say or attack people. I am willing to discuss issures with you but you\'re being a bit antagonistic here.

If your starting QB sucks, ya might want to change them out and see if you can get better chemistry with someone else, hell you can\'t go wrong if you are 3rd to last in scoring. You can\'t go much futher down than that... so you have nothing to lose and maybe more points to be gained. More points means more chances to win.

And if you read what is written and not what you want to read. Bently, not saying he is a better guard than center but our line seemed better when he was at Guard over all. Replacing a guard who isn\'t getting the job done and oh lets see here 7 year veteran Jacox at Center. Spend your time doing some research before you just go attacking people.

Question of the week: Strive for playoffs or fold for draft
 

I didn\'t think I attacked you Euph, if I did I am sorry. Seems like you are following me from thread to thread to argue and it was getting annoying. I have no problem discussing things with you either.

If Jacox was a good center, wouldn\'t he have been there since the beginning? Why would they move LeCharles to center and keep him there if Jacox was a good center? Makes no sense to me. Jacox hasn\'t done it all season, seems like a change like that wouldn\'t help the line, but would get it ready for another center next season and LeCharles going back to guard for the future.

And you have yet to address my arguements about Baltimore and Tampa Bay\'s superbowl. Trent Dilfer and B-more\'s offense sucked in the year they won, but they did, carried by their defense. Same with Tampa. Their defense scored as many points as the Raiders offense in the Superbowl. So you have yet to convince me there is a good argument for Green benching McCown after he was 4-2 after an 0-3 start and had won two game sin a row. Then they promptly lose two games after the change so the move is even more fishy.

No attacks, but here is some more research for you. Green cut starting center Pete Kendall this year, who was immediately picked up by the Jets and starts for them leading Martin in the rushing attack. Surely that is a suspicious move. Also, they cut Superbowl MVP Dexter JAckson who was immediately signed back by Tampa Bay. Surely that is suspicious. Doesn\'t sound like a coach who wanted to win this year to me. But maybe we just have different opinions.

There attack free. Now if you could address the issues pointed out to you, we could move forward. I will say that it is hard to twist someone\'s words when you respond to EXACTLY what they have been saying, as I have been doing to you.

Question of the week: Strive for playoffs or fold for draft
 

I have addressed those points and you simply either twisted them or chose to ignore them.

Bently at Guard... the line seemed to have been b-e-t-t-e-r, overall. We are being blitz from Guard spot to the outside like mad, its an open invite to come on in and join the party. This thought was simply being shared as possible \'tweaks\'.

You were the one to add stuff to a thread that had nothing to do with the thread but ok... Baltimore and Tampa\'s, offense didn\'t SUCK as you refer to... Az yeah they are sucking. Ravens and Bucs didn\'t have a high scoring offense but could eat some time and did manage to score on occasion. AZ has neither dominating D or a average offense. Wheres Az\'s Jamal Lewis?

You might want to check the thread but I recall you writing away, and I didn\'t say anything the past few however finds you chasing me. HMMM, bend twist.

Question of the week: Strive for playoffs or fold for draft
 

Okay, I give up posting to you cause I really don\'t know what world you live in. I started a thread about Denny Green, and you were the FIRST to post accusing me of having an agenda. And if you think B-more\'s offense didn\'t suck, when they did not score a td for a stretch of 5 straight weeks, I really don\'t know what to say. Also, since we are looking back at threads, who posted to who first in this one also. I give up. Since you use zero facts when disagreeing, there is no point in going on. I\'ll give you an example. You said \"B-more\'s and Tampa\'s offenses were not bad when their teams won the Superbowl.\" No facts backed that up. I said the opposite but gave the facts of B-more\'s offense not getting a td for 5 straight weeks during the season and Tampa\'s defense scoring as much as the Raiders in the Superbowl. Those were facts and can be looked up(cause I have). So there is no point in me continuing to disagree if the other party feels their opinions carry the same weight as facts. Later man. If you felt attacked as you were following me around, I apologize.

Question of the week: Strive for playoffs or fold for draft
 

I warned you two. Now I have to lock 2 threads cause ya\'ll can\'t quit this.