Question of the week: Strive for playoffs or fold for draft
 

The Saints are in an interesting pickle. This is a followup to my PLAYOFFS!!! post from last week.

As much as they try, they are still in it. Everyone around them in the race for the last wildcard spot (sans two) lost last week: Detroit, TB, St. Louis, Chicago, Arizona, and the Giants. The two winners, Carolina and Dallas, have pulled themselves back into it.. All in all there are two 5-6 teams and five 4-7 teams still in the race.

Next week Chicago,TB and Dallas have tough games with Minnesota, Atlanta and Seattle respectively. There is direct head to head between the Saints and the Panthers, and the Lions and the Cards. Finally the Giants and the Rams, the co-leaders in the race, both have winnable games with Washington and San Francisco respectively.

So the question. Do the Saints actually do what all teams try to do and win games? Or do we throttle back, play the rookies and the second/third stringers, and set up for a top 10 pick. Note that there are 5 teams with 3 wins or less at the current time.

The NFC is ultra weak. After Philly, Atlanta, and GB no one seems to have a consistent program.

So the question: shoot for the last playoff spot, and face GB in Lambeau in January, or try to stay in that 5-10 draft pick slot?

You make the call.

SFIAH

Question of the week: Strive for playoffs or fold for draft
 

It seems to me that alot of saints players and definitly coaching staff will be looking for a new job come the end of the season... that being said, I would think it\'s in all of their collective interests to play hard and win as many games as possible...
the rest of the season is essentially a job interview...
few people like a loser, but nobody likes a quiter...

Question of the week: Strive for playoffs or fold for draft
 

Why is this even a question? If we were on Wall Street they would be screaming SELL SELL SELL!!! Tank it. What\'s the point of trying to make the playoffs and losing out to Tampa or Carolina in the final game? To pick 17th again? No way. We have a golden opportunity that we blew the last time on Sullivan to draft in the top 10. The Saints, as mediocre as they are, rarely get the chance without selling their soul(see Ricky Williams). You think all those high draft picks have helped San Diego? This is what we need. Haslett is gone and we get a stud int he draft, provided a new regime is not as inept at draftign as this one was.

Question of the week: Strive for playoffs or fold for draft
 

Close up shop and aim for Derrick Johnson. This team isnt making the playoffs, so why not?

Question of the week: Strive for playoffs or fold for draft
 

plaoffs not possible. The Saints have not been able to post a 6 game winniong streak since 2000. Since than with Brooks at the helm the team has only been able to muster 2 game winning streaks followed bye a loss. Except in 2002 when they one 3 games in a row twice. I just hope we don\'t get sweeped bye Tampa Bay. Tampa has not sweeped the Saints yet I would like to see this streak continue.

Question of the week: Strive for playoffs or fold for draft
 

Where is the love for the game? You play to win...you don\'t play to lose. If it was a matter of one game to get the number one pick I can understand but not now... we play to win. This is also a great oppitunity for players to at least fight for a job next year. Moving up a few spots in the draft isn\'t going to help us all that much at all anyways.

...a shot at the playoffs or not you play to win.

[Edited on 1/12/2004 by Euphoria]

Question of the week: Strive for playoffs or fold for draft
 

What?? A few spots??? We lose out, we pick top 5. That is Derrick Johnson or Antrell Rolle cause Miami is not taking D and San Fran will prob take Leinart. These are franchise players. I would rather one be in a Saints jersey than anywhere else. A few spots is the difference in getting a franchise player and guessing again.

Question of the week: Strive for playoffs or fold for draft
 

We got Sullivan at 6.

Question of the week: Strive for playoffs or fold for draft
 

LMAO... JKOOL you couln\'t have chosen better words to put this debate to an end. Even if you draft number one who\'s to say you don\'t end up with a Ryan Leaf?

Question of the week: Strive for playoffs or fold for draft
 

Oh...You must be under the Impression that we still have a choice...

Question of the week: Strive for playoffs or fold for draft
 

I guess none of you guys decided to read that I wrote this. I already admittes Sully was a bust as a pick in the top 10 and saw we could make up for it. I guess you ignore what you want when you wanna make your point.

Question of the week: Strive for playoffs or fold for draft
 

From what I can see, there aren\'t a lot of impact players coming out in the draft this year. So, that being said, I\'d just assume spoil some holidays and take our chances when the draft rolls around, one or two spots don\'t look like they\'re going to make a hell of a lot of difference in the grand scheme of things.

Plus, when players tank, they usually get injured to boot, so any players slacking run the risk of ruining their careers. Hustle, win stay healthy for a new regime.

Question of the week: Strive for playoffs or fold for draft
 

So xan, in your opinion, Derrick Johnson, Antrell Rolle, Matt Leinart and Aaron Rodgers are not impact players? Wow.

Question of the week: Strive for playoffs or fold for draft
 

I agree with E. I can never support tanking as a strategy. You always play to win.

Question of the week: Strive for playoffs or fold for draft
 

playoffs?
you kidding me?
I just want to win another game

Question of the week: Strive for playoffs or fold for draft
 

I think JKool may share my fears that, under Loomis\' inept watch (and his job is safe according to some other posts), we may end up screwing the pooch again no matter how high we pick.

It\'s a touchy situation - while I agree there is wisdom to calling it a wash and \"waiting until next season,\" most Saints fans aren\'t conditioned to have high hopes for draft picks. While this has much to do with Haslett and his staff\'s inability to develop talent (AB hasn\'t improved in three years, and wasn\'t even a rookie when we got him), I have my doubts about the quality of coach we\'ll get after Haz\'s expected departure. Not to mention the questionable range of personnel decision-making the new coach will be granted in his first year.

That being said, I say WIN \'EM ALL!!! I\'m a fan in the end, and I simply can\'t sit back on Sundays with a smile on my face while the Saints lose out. Granted, I doubt we CAN win very many more, but I\'m never gonna pull for us to lose. Plus, while I don\'t expect the LA move to happen, I don\'t wanna see anything to encourage the possibility.

High draft picks implode frequently, whether due to laziness, overrating, injury, or some other reason. At the same time, 3rd or 4th round picks, and even undrafted rookies, emerge as quality starters. It\'s a crapshoot, and some coaches and GM\'s are just better gamblers than others. I can\'t defend knowingly losing out on the hope that we\'ll strike it big (especially since we never have).

Finally, unless there\'s a players mutiny, Haz & friends aren\'t gonna throw the remaining games, anyway (did anyone else hear Haz\'s Pete Rose comment? LOL!). The coaches know their butt\'s are on the line, and that their only hope of redemption is something dramatic. A players mutiny is doubtful (except for Brooks ... he\'s been doing it all year), as those who are unhappy here or who are looking at free-agency are gonna be auditioning. Like it or not, these guys do it for the money, and they probably ain\'t gonna jerk around because they\'re convinced some rookie is gonna come in and save the team.

Question of the week: Strive for playoffs or fold for draft
 

saintswhodi - if you pick a side to a debate, stick to it, don\'t get wishy-washy. Your \'sell, sell, sell stradegy contradicts having leadership come in and make good picks. Say for instance a person who can draft can draft great at 10 as well as he can at say 6. I am all for bringing Randy back but I trust him at 5 and I trust him at 10. I just don\'t think you \'tank\' games unless its the last and give bench players a shot, for the number one pick. You don\'t tank 3-7 games out sorry.

Question of the week: Strive for playoffs or fold for draft
 

How was anything I said wishy washy Euph? I have stated for weeks we should tank, get Haslett fired and go into the draft high. At what point do you think I flip-flopped on this opinion cause I fail to see it. I don\'t see how sell sell sell THIS YEAR contradicts anything about the future. Why the hell would I wanna be of a sell sell mind-set if we get a new coach and a high draft pick, which I want? I think your argument is losing steam so you question me. I think you can ask pretty much anyone what my position is ON THIS SEASON and they will all give you the same answer. Nice try though.

Also, just so I am not confused, in your own opinion, we should at best try to win all our remaining games(yeah right) probably put together a streak of two games, get all your hopes up about the playoffs, lose a game no way we should lose, end up 7-9, pick 18 and be forced into taking a Will Smith again cause \"all the players we coveted were gone.\" So if the majority don\'t wanna take a shot at Johnson or Rolle, someone tell me who they think will be available at 18 that can come in right now and help the team. Please. Just about everyone has said that with Loomis staying free agency isn\'t looking so hot as a means of gaining players which leaves us with the draft. Give me the stud # 18 pick who will help us.

[Edited on 1/12/2004 by saintswhodi]

Question of the week: Strive for playoffs or fold for draft
 

Sorry fellas, we\'ve got too many quitters on this team already. Show me a quitter and I\'ll show you someone who\'ll never be anything more than a loser. Every player on this team better play their assses off from now till week 16.

I think a quitters mentality will follow this team into 2005 and the next regime. I wouldn\'t want to burden the next staff with trying to purge a quitters attitude from all these young players we have.

But I think they can still play their tails off and we\'ll still only win a couple more games. I don\'t think there\'s much difference between picking 6th and 12th, if you have a GM who knows what the heck he\'s doing.

I really like most of the players on this team, Deuce, Joe, Karney, Howard, Grant, Young, MM, Pathon, Bellamy, Mitchell, Boo, etc. I want them to walk off the field winners, not losers. A few wins down the stretch will give some of these players the confidence they need to come out of the gates next year full speed.

Is there anyone who still thinks this current staff will be kept in tact? I don\'t.

Question of the week: Strive for playoffs or fold for draft
 

Wait, Danno do we follow the same team? You don\'t want them to have a \"quitters\" mentality? Have you been following them the last few years? What other mentality have they shown since 2000? Did you think they were winners coming into this season? Egads, are our standards so low in New Orleans now that being 8-8 or 7-9 is having a \"winners/never give up\" mentality? I shudder to think that that is true. SO losing to a winless Arizona and a winless Tampa in consecutive weeks, having the last place defense in every category in the NFL by far, and being 3 games under .500 somehow denotes there is a \"winners\" and a \"never give up\" type attitude on this team? Jesus, we really are jaded. Being 7-1 or 7-2 a few years ago and tanking to sub .500 teams in Dec. means we aren\'t quitters? Then having the same thing almost exactly happen the next year? I give up.

Question of the week: Strive for playoffs or fold for draft
 

I am still perplexed by your statements Danno. Were none of these players(with the exception of MM and Karney) on this team the last 4 years? At what point have they known what winning was? How do we know they don\'t already have a loser\'s mentality? I don\'t know what team you have been watching, but it ain\'t this one. If players have high character, they will stillw anna win despite losing seasons. Look at San Diego. How many years have they been bad? And their team is younger than ours so that \"loser\'s\" mentality for young players is hog wash. If a player has it within himself to do better, like Brees and his teammates did, they will. Teh Chargers were 4-12 last year, and Gates was on the team, so was LT and so was Brees. Also Jammer and Davis and Kiel and mainly their entire team. Where is their \"loser\'s\" mentality Since that boogey-man will strike down young players if you get a high draft pick? I am in disbelief.

Question of the week: Strive for playoffs or fold for draft
 

The answer to this question is very easy - what we think doesn\'t matter. Even if it did, it wouldn\'t change the most probable of outcomes:

Haslett will try to motivate them and convince them they\'re still in it. Maybe they win a game or two, but ultimately they don\'t go anywhere but home.

I understand Danno\'s point of view about attitude, and it\'s hard to disagree. Then again, the worst possible thing right now is probably for this team to start believing. We know what happens then. 8-7, last week of the season, playoff spot on the line, Saints lose 16-13 and go... 8-8. Haslett stays - we trade every pick we have to move up and pick a DT out of Georgia who ends up being a complete slob. We sign two other guys who are have-beens or that you\'ve never heard of in the offseason, and then start hearing the hype in camp about this team really buying in to Haslett\'s new and different strategy this season. It\'ll all be different this time. Billy shows up in our 3rd preseason loss to talk about how preseason really doesn\'t matter and explains why this time the Saints will be 11-5. The season begins... there is a stretch where the Saints go 3-5 or worse (b/c they ALWAYS do under Haslett), and we end up having this exact discussion 1 year from today. Sorry, not interested. Let them think they\'re losers... they are.

Question of the week: Strive for playoffs or fold for draft
 

HOW ABOUT MY 1ST COMMENT...

Sorry fellas, we\'ve got too many quitters on this team already.

Question of the week: Strive for playoffs or fold for draft
 

OK - how about - what does this team need more?

A) A better attitude
B) New Coaches

You decide. I say B. If A suffers b/c of B that\'s a shame, but B should not be foresaken b/c of A.

Question of the week: Strive for playoffs or fold for draft
 

I\'ll take a will smith at 18 vice a Sullivan at 6, period!

Draft is a gamble... Ryan Leaf, Sullivan, another QB we gambled on in a trade and got us nothing. Its a crap shoot. You play to win and play the cards we are delt. With good management next year and pray Randy, we\'ll be fine in the draft at 1 - 6, or 16.

[Edited on 1/12/2004 by Euphoria]

Question of the week: Strive for playoffs or fold for draft
 

Would you call Deuce a quitter? Joe Horn a quitter? Bentley?
If someone says we should tank the season, I\'d assume they meant the guys who aren\'t already quitters start quitting.
WE HAVE TOO MANY QUITTERS ALREADY!!!!!!!!
Whats so frickin hard to understand about that?

Question of the week: Strive for playoffs or fold for draft
 

How do you teach some of the guys we keep professionalism if we tank the season... you don\'t do it that way thats for sure.

...and I would also like to point out its also unethical.

[Edited on 1/12/2004 by Euphoria]

Question of the week: Strive for playoffs or fold for draft
 

I\'m a Spurs fan, always have been, so I have seen how tanking a season can help a team, i.e. the season they drafted Duncan. Robinson had surgery early in the offseason and missed the first 20 games. They stunk. So instead of having him come back and them win more, they sat him out the whole year, drafted Duncan, and two championships later it\'s all history. May not be as easy in football, but it\'s a start.

First Danno, what\'s so frickin hard to understand is that Joe, Deuce, and Bentley will play hard regardless. They always do. We still lose. Nothing has to change for them. They are pro bowl caliber players regardless. Unless you somehow think we have been winning while noone else was looking. They are good-great players and will still be at 4-12 or 12-4. Hope you can understand that. If not, again see San Diego.

Euph, to your crap shoot draft, I submit Peyton Manning, D. Mcnabb, Edge James, and I could go on and on about high draft picks who were not busts. We could argue this all day. The fact of the matter is Derrick Johnson is touted as the best lb to come out in a LONG time and Rolle one of the best cbs. That\'s a fact. Also, this team sees professionalism daily in the form of Sullivan. Real professional. Watson already has been burned missing a meeting. They have professional coaches who gameplan them into first quarter deficits every week and an ethical GM who basically threw the head coach under the bus a few weeks ago. And that\'s not to mention the professional and ethical owner who hides the books, claims poverty, blackmails the state for what he wants and calls his team worse than high schoolers. Surely wouldn\'t want to ruin this atmosphere of \"professionalism\" and \"ethics.\" Sometimes I think people aren\'t really watching or paying attention to this team at all.

[Edited on 1/12/2004 by saintswhodi]

Question of the week: Strive for playoffs or fold for draft
 

And before everyone gets in a huff over this, I was really just saying I feel like so many of you are making decisions with your heart and not your head. Of course you love this team, we all do, and noone WANTS them to lose, but look at the record and the horrible collapses late season the last few years. Something has to give. We are not going anywhere this season. What\'s so terrible about taking a shot at a franchise defensive player, where we all agree we need the most help? There are two of them in this draft and we aren\'t that far from having a shot.

Of the two teams with worse record, Miami needs a rb in the worst way, and there are good ones in the draft, and San Fran needs a franchise qb. They already have good linebackers. They may go defense, but I doubt it. Cle, Kansas City and Washington all have 3 wins, but guaranteed they will all win at least two more, and if not Cle definitely needs a franchise qb, Wash\'s defense is already stout, and Kansas City will definitely look D. I like our adds at getting that franchise defensive player this year. Certainly we will have a new staff, which WILL NOT happen if this team wins out. Odds are they will not be as inept at drafting as this one. All in all, I can understand you guys wanting to win, but noone has told me how that helps us at all. We see what happens when this team wins. They get full of themselves and blunder. It\'s time to change that also.

Question of the week: Strive for playoffs or fold for draft
 

So WHO are you suggesting should TANK the remaining games?
The guys that are already quitters or the guys who aren\'t?
I don\'t understand your point at all. Maybe I\'m missing something here.
I think the meaning of \"tank\" is to intentionally lose the game.
If we should intentionally lose, who should be a part of throwing the game?

Question of the week: Strive for playoffs or fold for draft
 

Danno, you are right, bad choice of words on my part. I will rephrase. We should not put any more effort into winning than what they already have. I can see what you mean by how I used tanking, and it was not fully explained and incorrect on my part. I mean put young guys like Buckwoldt and Watson and Gleason in and see what they can do. Get Devery on the field and see what he can do. Experiment with the line to see if it gets better. I basically want them to just maintain the status quo, do what they do, and not put anything more into trying to win. My bad on the choice of words.

Question of the week: Strive for playoffs or fold for draft
 

OMG... you can\'t tell me drafting is not a crap shoot. Until you have a player playing the speed of the NFL, you don\'t know it its going to work out or not. The players you mention were they drafted number one??? HMMMM.... so why should we draft number one??? Sullivan at 6... come on what a wast he was.

Question of the week: Strive for playoffs or fold for draft
 

...then why don\'t teams just forfeit. Wouldn\'t that just be much easier.

Question of the week: Strive for playoffs or fold for draft
 

First Euph, they can\'t forfeit. Second as I said before, we could go round and round on the crap shoot draft idea. It has some merit, but there are enough good players that come out that I have faith something good can be attained. You keep bringing up Sully, but that was a bad choice by the Saints. NOONE had him on thier board in the first round, and especially not at number 6. If we had taken Trufant or Kevin Williams would they be busts? No, cause they are not now. Please get off the Sully argument cause that is the staff not being able to evaluate talent and not a fault of the draft. So tell me now you feel Derrick Johnson or Antrell Rolle will be busts. Tell me now you wouldn\'t be giddy if either was a Saint. I would like for you to put that in print so I can save it for draft time.

Question of the week: Strive for playoffs or fold for draft
 

Go Saints!

I actually don\'t think they have a shot in hell of winning more than 2 more games this season, but I will be laughing my ass off if they win out. The entertainment value alone, reading all the panic posts and irate \"I hope you are happy\" one-liners, will provide hours of enjoyment for myself. Plus, it doesn\'t make any sense to me to hope that the team you supposedly root for, loses.

Question of the week: Strive for playoffs or fold for draft
 

Sorry for the delay in responding to your post:
_____________________________________________________
So xan, in your opinion, Derrick Johnson, Antrell Rolle, Matt Leinart and Aaron Rodgers are not impact players? Wow.
______________________________________________________

I\'ve not seen any of the above in an NFL game. It\'s easy to say someone\'s an \"impact player\" when that player is playing inferior competition, especially in college. Just look at Oakland, with more former #1 picks and \"impact players\" to see that scouting this feature has no formula.

Ultimately, impact players are monomoniacal, unafraid to be shackled to the seemingly one dimensional aspect of their vocation. There are a lot of \"gentlemen farmers\" in the NFL, and too many on the Saints, happy to be getting a hefty paycheck and trying to run the streak out before forced to do something else, with a sizeable nest egg to rest on. Unfortunately, there\'s no one anyone fears. That fear comes with the respect earned from punishing an opponent without mercy every down, every game.

Your list has talent, but no impact.

Question of the week: Strive for playoffs or fold for draft
 

It\'s a catch 22...If we win..we lose out on higher picks..If we tank..We lose respect from within...

As long as this team..just cracks some heads..Win,Lose, or Draw..Doesn\'t really matter

To pick a good player in the first 2 rounds is suppose to be a given...Teams are suppose to know who they need..and how much they need them...

I think most of the guys on here are like me..and sick of seeing opportunities wasted, each year, on losers...And the answer isn\'t to tank...If it happens..hey..we win..but..at least keep some Integrity...I know I have been one of the main people saying I hope we lose it all...and get top 5 picks...But..In Retrospect..I just want them to hurt people..who cares about the score...Just Kill..Let someone else clean up the mess

Question of the week: Strive for playoffs or fold for draft
 

There\'s only 5 games left. Not 6.

The point is that the conference is so weak that they won\'t need a 5 game winning streak. They probably only need to win 4 of those 5 games because beating Carolina, TB, and Dallas would put the Saints ahead of each of those three contenders. They already have the head to head against the Rams. So that only leaves the Giants who are playing a rookie QB and has lost 1/2 of their defensive line.

But the real question is doing this in the team\'s long term best interest?

BTW I agree with the assessment that giving extended interviews to the younger players to evaluate their talent could work whether or not the Saints win or lose. We already know what the current players can or cannot do. But folks like Henderson and others are completely unknown quantities. Why not give them a chance to show what they can do. If they win, fine. But if they don\'t what damage would it do?

But I bet Haslett and Loomis won\'t do it. If I were Benson I\'d demand it.

SFIAH

[Edited on 2/12/2004 by SaintFanInATLHELL]

Question of the week: Strive for playoffs or fold for draft
 

You don\'t tank with players. You tank with scheme. You tank by changing personnel. You tank by \"...giving young players a chance to shine.\"

And you\'ll get hustle. You\'ll get spark. You\'ll get that 100 yard game that Stecker had in the early season. You may even win a game or two.

But this is a league about talent and coaching. If you put your 2nd string talent up against others 1st string talent, it doesn\'t matter how much they try, the 1st stringers will prevail most of the time.

SFIAH

Question of the week: Strive for playoffs or fold for draft
 

Now THAT I wouldn\'t mind. Once we\'re offiially eliminated lets take a look at the youngsters.

Start Leisle, Mitchell, Sullivan (all 60 minutes), Will Smith, Bockwoldt, Allen (all 60 minutes), Watson, Craft, Brown, Hilton, Klingsbury, Stecker, Henderson, Gardner, and Stinchcomb. Or at least get a lot of minutes.

It won\'t be TANKING the game but I can assure you the results would be the same and these youngins would get some real game time and accurate evaluation.

I could live with that, easily.