Is this Defense worse than the 2012 team?

blackangold · 11-28-2014, 09:27 AM

According to ESPN's formula it is:

"Believe it or not, according to ESPN Stats and Information’s defensive efficiency formula, the Saints are even worse this season than they were in 2012 -- when they set the NFL record for yards allowed in a season. That year, they averaged minus-7.0 "expected points" per game. This year it’s minus-8.6, the worst in the league."

Rob Ryan getting love from players, but not getting results - New Orleans Saints Blog - ESPN

The article overall is about the players taking all the blame and Rob Ryan not being the problem. That may be true, but I can tell you our position coaches still need to go and Ryan needs to bring his own guys in.

hagan714 · 11-28-2014, 09:45 AM

the only reason i would consider putting these two defenses together would be the coaching. Spags did not gut the team as deep and did add some good players. so Spags was worse.

Even with all the moves and the drop in play across the board I still think we are a few pieces away from plugging most of the holes.

the issue i have is Rob has not shown the talent evaluation so far to get the job done. he appears to be blind to the big picture and is to busy doing micro management to see he is driving the group into the dirt. this is a replay of dallas all over again.

Notice how Drew is playing more and more like Tony Romo did? QB having no faith in their defense and feels he has to score makes bone head mistakes. QB need that safety blanket. As we all know the QB is usually the most sensitive player on the field.

In my opinion Rob is one of the direct cause of Drew drop in quality of play. He maybe the main reason

The offense feels it has do it all.

nope i do not believe that a is stretch of the imagination by any means.

CharityMike · 11-28-2014, 11:52 AM

Originally Posted by hagan714

the only reason i would consider putting these two defenses together would be the coaching. Spags did not gut the team as deep and did add some good players. so Spags was worse.

Even with all the moves and the drop in play across the board I still think we are a few pieces away from plugging most of the holes.

the issue i have is Rob has not shown the talent evaluation so far to get the job done. he appears to be blind to the big picture and is to busy doing micro management to see he is driving the group into the dirt. this is a replay of dallas all over again.

Notice how Drew is playing more and more like Tony Romo did? QB having no faith in their defense and feels he has to score makes bone head mistakes. QB need that safety blanket. As we all know the QB is usually the most sensitive player on the field.

In my opinion Rob is one of the direct cause of Drew drop in quality of play. He maybe the main reason

The offense feels it has do it all.

nope i do not believe that a is stretch of the imagination by any means.

Agree totally. The position coaches have to be changed. RR is not without blame though. He has shown the unwillingness to play to our strengths. He continues to call zone plays when we obviously dont have the skill sets to. He has shown that he cannot adjust his game plan and sticks to it regardless of how bad its working. That, in my mind, is how we resemble 2012. The biggest problem with spags was his scheme. He refused to change. So far it seems, RR is doing the same thing.

K Major · 11-28-2014, 12:54 PM

No. That 2012 defense was pretty damn bad

saintsfan1976 · 11-28-2014, 01:01 PM

"Not ready for prime time"

That's how I would characterize this defense.

A mix of vets, touted picks, signings, UDFAs. And they're not ready to step up

Danno · 11-28-2014, 02:03 PM

2012 3rd down conversions against us - 38.5 %
2014 3rd down conversions against us - 47.9 %

Since 2006, only San Diego in 2011 has been worse.

blackangold · 11-28-2014, 02:50 PM

Originally Posted by Danno

2012 3rd down conversions against us - 38.5 %
2014 3rd down conversions against us - 47.9 %

Since 2006, only San Diego in 2011 has been worse.

The only defensive stats that matter:

3rd down conversion rate.
Number of sacks.
Number of turnovers.

The 2014 Defense is bad/awful in all 3.

SaintsBro · 11-28-2014, 03:33 PM

I think the stats (particularly yards) may be a little bit different due to circumstances.... but to the naked eye, with that sense of inevitability that they cannot stop the other team more than once or twice a game (and usually that being due to the other team's drops/mistakes/miscues), I'd have to say....it doesn't really matter, for all intents and purposes they are essentially the same between 2012 and 2014. The feeling in the stands at the games is identical. The scoreboards at the end of the games are quite similar, probably worse this year historically, because of all the repeated collapses.

The lack of fear or respect from the other teams is quite telling. There's nobody on this defense that keeps the other team's coaches awake at night during the week, worrying about matchups or game planning for them or adjusting to them. Week after week, teams just come in against the Saints, set up their base offense, run their plays, and go to work. There's absolutely no risk or pushback. No playmakers. No turnovers. So bad that arguing over whether it's worse than 2012 is just guessing how many angels dancing on the head of a pin.

RailBoss · 11-29-2014, 03:17 AM

NFL Stats:
Saints 2014 Defense ranked 27th
Saints 2014 Offense ranked 2nd

lee909 · 11-29-2014, 05:14 AM

Stats are can be turned to see any point of view

Basing the best offense off yards is pointless,points win games not yards. And twice in two home games we have come away from the goaline with nothing to show for it.We are 9th in the leage with 26.2 points per game. 25th on defense allowing 26.6 ppg.

One of the biggest stats is the defense has managed 11 takeaways,the offense has given the ball away 20 times.You dont win games loosing the turnover battle. Look at the top 6 teams in the turnover battle(packers,pats,seattle,kansas,arizona,denver) best teams in the lague dont turnover and create turnovers.

11-28-2014, 09:27 AM	#1
blackangold 1000 Posts + Join Date: Aug 2011 Posts: 3,422	Is this Defense worse than the 2012 team? According to ESPN's formula it is: "Believe it or not, according to ESPN Stats and Information’s defensive efficiency formula, the Saints are even worse this season than they were in 2012 -- when they set the NFL record for yards allowed in a season. That year, they averaged minus-7.0 "expected points" per game. This year it’s minus-8.6, the worst in the league." Rob Ryan getting love from players, but not getting results - New Orleans Saints Blog - ESPN The article overall is about the players taking all the blame and Rob Ryan not being the problem. That may be true, but I can tell you our position coaches still need to go and Ryan needs to bring his own guys in. CharityMike likes this.

11-28-2014, 09:45 AM	#2
hagan714 LB Mentallity Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 15,870 Blog Entries: 68	Re: Is this Defense worse than the 2012 team? the only reason i would consider putting these two defenses together would be the coaching. Spags did not gut the team as deep and did add some good players. so Spags was worse. Even with all the moves and the drop in play across the board I still think we are a few pieces away from plugging most of the holes. the issue i have is Rob has not shown the talent evaluation so far to get the job done. he appears to be blind to the big picture and is to busy doing micro management to see he is driving the group into the dirt. this is a replay of dallas all over again. Notice how Drew is playing more and more like Tony Romo did? QB having no faith in their defense and feels he has to score makes bone head mistakes. QB need that safety blanket. As we all know the QB is usually the most sensitive player on the field. In my opinion Rob is one of the direct cause of Drew drop in quality of play. He maybe the main reason The offense feels it has do it all. nope i do not believe that a is stretch of the imagination by any means. MatthewT, SapperSaint and CharityMike like this.
	"We may have lost the game, but you'll be hurting tomorrow." Doug Atkins Last edited by hagan714; 11-28-2014 at 09:49 AM..

11-28-2014, 11:52 AM	#3
CharityMike Site Donor 2018 Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: Mid City, New Orleans Posts: 3,556	Re: Is this Defense worse than the 2012 team? Originally Posted by hagan714 the only reason i would consider putting these two defenses together would be the coaching. Spags did not gut the team as deep and did add some good players. so Spags was worse. Even with all the moves and the drop in play across the board I still think we are a few pieces away from plugging most of the holes. the issue i have is Rob has not shown the talent evaluation so far to get the job done. he appears to be blind to the big picture and is to busy doing micro management to see he is driving the group into the dirt. this is a replay of dallas all over again. Notice how Drew is playing more and more like Tony Romo did? QB having no faith in their defense and feels he has to score makes bone head mistakes. QB need that safety blanket. As we all know the QB is usually the most sensitive player on the field. In my opinion Rob is one of the direct cause of Drew drop in quality of play. He maybe the main reason The offense feels it has do it all. nope i do not believe that a is stretch of the imagination by any means. Agree totally. The position coaches have to be changed. RR is not without blame though. He has shown the unwillingness to play to our strengths. He continues to call zone plays when we obviously dont have the skill sets to. He has shown that he cannot adjust his game plan and sticks to it regardless of how bad its working. That, in my mind, is how we resemble 2012. The biggest problem with spags was his scheme. He refused to change. So far it seems, RR is doing the same thing.

11-28-2014, 12:54 PM	#4
K Major Site Donor 2019 Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: Bedford, TX Posts: 24,619 Blog Entries: 3	Re: Is this Defense worse than the 2012 team? No. That 2012 defense was pretty damn bad hagan714 likes this.

11-28-2014, 01:01 PM	#5
saintsfan1976 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Atlanta Posts: 10,832 Blog Entries: 3	Re: Is this Defense worse than the 2012 team? "Not ready for prime time" That's how I would characterize this defense. A mix of vets, touted picks, signings, UDFAs. And they're not ready to step up

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11-28-2014, 02:03 PM	#6
Danno Truth Addict Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Spanish Fort, AL (via NO and B/R) Posts: 24,720	Re: Is this Defense worse than the 2012 team? 2012 3rd down conversions against us - 38.5 % 2014 3rd down conversions against us - 47.9 % Since 2006, only San Diego in 2011 has been worse. hagan714 and Rugby Saint II like this.

11-28-2014, 02:50 PM	#7
blackangold 1000 Posts + Join Date: Aug 2011 Posts: 3,422	Re: Is this Defense worse than the 2012 team? Originally Posted by Danno 2012 3rd down conversions against us - 38.5 % 2014 3rd down conversions against us - 47.9 % Since 2006, only San Diego in 2011 has been worse. The only defensive stats that matter: 3rd down conversion rate. Number of sacks. Number of turnovers. The 2014 Defense is bad/awful in all 3.

11-28-2014, 03:33 PM	#8
SaintsBro Site Donor Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: in line with my ridiculous CLEAR PLASTIC BAG Posts: 3,650 Blog Entries: 3	Re: Is this Defense worse than the 2012 team? I think the stats (particularly yards) may be a little bit different due to circumstances.... but to the naked eye, with that sense of inevitability that they cannot stop the other team more than once or twice a game (and usually that being due to the other team's drops/mistakes/miscues), I'd have to say....it doesn't really matter, for all intents and purposes they are essentially the same between 2012 and 2014. The feeling in the stands at the games is identical. The scoreboards at the end of the games are quite similar, probably worse this year historically, because of all the repeated collapses. The lack of fear or respect from the other teams is quite telling. There's nobody on this defense that keeps the other team's coaches awake at night during the week, worrying about matchups or game planning for them or adjusting to them. Week after week, teams just come in against the Saints, set up their base offense, run their plays, and go to work. There's absolutely no risk or pushback. No playmakers. No turnovers. So bad that arguing over whether it's worse than 2012 is just guessing how many angels dancing on the head of a pin. hagan714, K Major and Saint in Aus like this.

11-29-2014, 03:17 AM	#9
RailBoss 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: South Of The Mason Dixon Line Posts: 7,113	Re: Is this Defense worse than the 2012 team? NFL Stats: Saints 2014 Defense ranked 27th Saints 2014 Offense ranked 2nd

11-29-2014, 05:14 AM	#10
lee909 Site Donor 2015 Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: Watford England Posts: 8,803 Blog Entries: 1	Re: Is this Defense worse than the 2012 team? Stats are can be turned to see any point of view Basing the best offense off yards is pointless,points win games not yards. And twice in two home games we have come away from the goaline with nothing to show for it.We are 9th in the leage with 26.2 points per game. 25th on defense allowing 26.6 ppg. One of the biggest stats is the defense has managed 11 takeaways,the offense has given the ball away 20 times.You dont win games loosing the turnover battle. Look at the top 6 teams in the turnover battle(packers,pats,seattle,kansas,arizona,denver) best teams in the lague dont turnover and create turnovers. UK_WhoDat likes this.
	"Two receivers to the left, Garcon to the right. Manning in the shotgun, puts Collie in motion. Looks in his direction...it's picked off! It's picked off! It's Tracy Porter again! He's runnin' free! He's gonna go all the way!

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