Leadership

4saintspirit · 01-10-2005, 09:48 AM

I find it very interesting that everyting has to be in balck & white when you are discussing somethng that has too many factors to condense it into those parameters. Is leadership important -- of course -- can leadership alone win -- nope you gotta have some sort of talent. That said -- here is my take on the whole leadership argument -- A good leader with average talent can take his team to the next level -- not necessarily always will but can do it because the team has trust and faith in him. A bad leader with talent can also take his team to the next level -- but much less often, As for the AB/Haz discussion with leadership -- can\'t really tell about Haz but I can say with authority that a leader doesn\'t not talk about him being a great QB with a good supporting cast.

WhoDat · 01-10-2005, 10:36 AM

UK, I\'m glad we share a name. Absolutely hilarious.

The defining characteristics of gumbo are the type of stock used and the thickening agent used. - Too much thickening I fear

ROFLMAO. Man, now I have to clean my montior again. That was hilarious.

In the last few posts, Billy has suggested that Leadership is worthless, said coaching is mostly meaningless, defended AB\'s comments about being \"a great QB on a bad team,\" and scoffed that anyone would be upset by Moss\'s butt-crack routine last night.

[Edited on 10/1/2005 by JOESAM2002]

mutineer10 · 01-10-2005, 11:31 AM

i\'d beg to different on culpepper n mcnabb. i think they are leaders.

Agreed. I might even go so far as to call Vick a leader. I certainly can\'t think of anyone else on the Buzzards who is as influential.

On the other hand, I dunno who admires Matt Hasselbeck or Trent Green for their \"leadership.\" At best, they are moderately good QB\'s who just happen to be surrounded by alot of talent (especially Green).

JKool · 01-10-2005, 12:16 PM

Gator -

J Kool - I wasn\'t comparing QBs at all. I named those QBs to show ALL qbs have flaws even the ones presumed to be good leaders. So there\'s no need to explain why a flaw is irrelevant because you don\'t like hearing about it. Kinda like me saying over and over Jake doesn\'t need cannon b/c great arms are useless. Or me saying Peyton doesn\'t need wheels b/c running is useless.

I\'m sure you knew this, but I understood. This was just a part of a bit of a running joke for me.

Also, you did compare them. You said they each have a flaw (and we know they each have more than just one). That is a comparison.

The simple fact of the matter is that these guys are are comparable in the sense that we can make judgements about what is the same (and different about them). The only issue with that is that sometimes there are just too many differences between them to any real judgement away from it. It is my view that comparision IS possible AND not a problem.

JKool · 01-10-2005, 12:29 PM

As for your view on leadership, I\'m inclined to agree.

First, good leaders are good - agreed. However, it is not clear to me that your analysis is quite right. Being respectful, for example, is good MOST of the time; surely you can imagine a time when being disrespectful would be good (I\'m sure you get the idea). Thus, I\'m disinclined to agree that leadership is analytically good - consider a team with too many leaders (the many headed beast, too many chefs, and so on).

That said, leadership, more often than not, is a good thing. I believe your \"common sense\" point is strong enough for that.

Also, in many discussions on this board, I\'ve come to believe that there are different kinds of leadership. Here are the two that come up most often: vocal leadership (leading by commanding, explaining, calling out, etc.) and example leadership (leading by doing). It is clear to me that Brooks is poor at the first kind, and low to medium on the second kind. I\'m also sure that there are others. Farve, for example, in contrast, is high on both.

As for your idea as to how to determine leadership, I like it. I suggested you may say something to that effect in my earlier post. Do you then agree that Haz is a good leader, since his players have recently rallied behind him and said that they wanted to win for him (surely a sign of a leader)? Benson thinks he\'s a leader. On your account (assuming you have no first hand experience of him), it seems you must say he is.

Also, I agree that we experience leadership, but personal experience doesn\'t usually do much for me. The greatest leaders are the ones who can lead everyone (thus, I\'d be inclined to think that my personal experience of that person would tell me that they are a great leader); however, many good leaders inspire some and repulse others. Take for example Margaret Thatcher - inspiring to some, annoying as all get out to others. My point here is that it isn\'t one\'s own personal experience that should matter so much as inter-subjective agreement (lots of people think x is a good leader) that should tell one about who is a good leader. A minor point, but I thought you might find it interesting.

JKool · 01-10-2005, 12:32 PM

Oh, yeah. I also agree that good leaders have strong drives. That is a good idea for evaluating leadership; I\'ll think more on it.

At first blush though, it seems too coarse grained. Brooks certainly has a strong drive for some more cash. He also has a strong drive to be considered a top flight QB. Sometimes he even seems to have a strong drive to win games. We will agree that these strong drives are not an indication of his being a leader though, right?

AND we agree on leadership being multi-dimensional AND only a part of the big picture.

01-10-2005, 09:48 AM	#11
4saintspirit 500th Post Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 690	Leadership I find it very interesting that everyting has to be in balck & white when you are discussing somethng that has too many factors to condense it into those parameters. Is leadership important -- of course -- can leadership alone win -- nope you gotta have some sort of talent. That said -- here is my take on the whole leadership argument -- A good leader with average talent can take his team to the next level -- not necessarily always will but can do it because the team has trust and faith in him. A bad leader with talent can also take his team to the next level -- but much less often, As for the AB/Haz discussion with leadership -- can\'t really tell about Haz but I can say with authority that a leader doesn\'t not talk about him being a great QB with a good supporting cast.
4saintspirit 500th Post Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 690	\"I have a photographic memory -- I just don\'t have any film.\"

01-10-2005, 10:36 AM	#12
WhoDat 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 5,631	Leadership UK, I\'m glad we share a name. Absolutely hilarious. The defining characteristics of gumbo are the type of stock used and the thickening agent used. - Too much thickening I fear ROFLMAO. Man, now I have to clean my montior again. That was hilarious. In the last few posts, Billy has suggested that Leadership is worthless, said coaching is mostly meaningless, defended AB\'s comments about being \"a great QB on a bad team,\" and scoffed that anyone would be upset by Moss\'s butt-crack routine last night. [Edited on 10/1/2005 by JOESAM2002]
WhoDat 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 5,631

01-10-2005, 11:31 AM	#13
mutineer10 Site Donor Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Baton Rouge, LA Posts: 1,739	Leadership i\'d beg to different on culpepper n mcnabb. i think they are leaders. Agreed. I might even go so far as to call Vick a leader. I certainly can\'t think of anyone else on the Buzzards who is as influential. On the other hand, I dunno who admires Matt Hasselbeck or Trent Green for their \"leadership.\" At best, they are moderately good QB\'s who just happen to be surrounded by alot of talent (especially Green).

01-10-2005, 12:16 PM	#14
JKool 1000 Posts + Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Madison, WI Posts: 2,423	Leadership Gator - J Kool - I wasn\'t comparing QBs at all. I named those QBs to show ALL qbs have flaws even the ones presumed to be good leaders. So there\'s no need to explain why a flaw is irrelevant because you don\'t like hearing about it. Kinda like me saying over and over Jake doesn\'t need cannon b/c great arms are useless. Or me saying Peyton doesn\'t need wheels b/c running is useless. I\'m sure you knew this, but I understood. This was just a part of a bit of a running joke for me. Also, you did compare them. You said they each have a flaw (and we know they each have more than just one). That is a comparison. The simple fact of the matter is that these guys are are comparable in the sense that we can make judgements about what is the same (and different about them). The only issue with that is that sometimes there are just too many differences between them to any real judgement away from it. It is my view that comparision IS possible AND not a problem.
	"... I was beating them with my eyes the whole game..." - Aaron Brooks

01-10-2005, 12:29 PM	#15
JKool 1000 Posts + Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Madison, WI Posts: 2,423	Leadership As for your view on leadership, I\'m inclined to agree. First, good leaders are good - agreed. However, it is not clear to me that your analysis is quite right. Being respectful, for example, is good MOST of the time; surely you can imagine a time when being disrespectful would be good (I\'m sure you get the idea). Thus, I\'m disinclined to agree that leadership is analytically good - consider a team with too many leaders (the many headed beast, too many chefs, and so on). That said, leadership, more often than not, is a good thing. I believe your \"common sense\" point is strong enough for that. Also, in many discussions on this board, I\'ve come to believe that there are different kinds of leadership. Here are the two that come up most often: vocal leadership (leading by commanding, explaining, calling out, etc.) and example leadership (leading by doing). It is clear to me that Brooks is poor at the first kind, and low to medium on the second kind. I\'m also sure that there are others. Farve, for example, in contrast, is high on both. As for your idea as to how to determine leadership, I like it. I suggested you may say something to that effect in my earlier post. Do you then agree that Haz is a good leader, since his players have recently rallied behind him and said that they wanted to win for him (surely a sign of a leader)? Benson thinks he\'s a leader. On your account (assuming you have no first hand experience of him), it seems you must say he is. Also, I agree that we experience leadership, but personal experience doesn\'t usually do much for me. The greatest leaders are the ones who can lead everyone (thus, I\'d be inclined to think that my personal experience of that person would tell me that they are a great leader); however, many good leaders inspire some and repulse others. Take for example Margaret Thatcher - inspiring to some, annoying as all get out to others. My point here is that it isn\'t one\'s own personal experience that should matter so much as inter-subjective agreement (lots of people think x is a good leader) that should tell one about who is a good leader. A minor point, but I thought you might find it interesting.
	"... I was beating them with my eyes the whole game..." - Aaron Brooks

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01-10-2005, 12:32 PM	#16
JKool 1000 Posts + Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Madison, WI Posts: 2,423	Leadership Oh, yeah. I also agree that good leaders have strong drives. That is a good idea for evaluating leadership; I\'ll think more on it. At first blush though, it seems too coarse grained. Brooks certainly has a strong drive for some more cash. He also has a strong drive to be considered a top flight QB. Sometimes he even seems to have a strong drive to win games. We will agree that these strong drives are not an indication of his being a leader though, right? AND we agree on leadership being multi-dimensional AND only a part of the big picture.
	"... I was beating them with my eyes the whole game..." - Aaron Brooks