Leadership

GumboBC · 01-09-2005, 07:54 PM

Favre, Delhomme, Hasselbeck, Trent Green, all considered great leaders... Yet, what did it get them?

Favre - Threw 4 ints in the first playoff game and got his team bounced by the lowly Vikings!!

Delhomme -- From superbowl to ummmm... sitting at home watching the playoffs.

Culpepper, Vick, McNabb, Bulger -- Not considered to be leaders. Where are they at.

Vick -- Won the NFC South and had the second best record in the NFC.
McNabb -- Won division and had best record in NFC.
Culpepper -- Threw 4TDs and beat Favre on his home turf!!
Bulger -- Beat Hasselbeck and the Seahawks on their home turf.

And then there's leadership from the coaches..

Parcells?
Gruden?
Holmgren?
Shannahan?

Can someone explain to me what leadership is doing for those folks this year?

It sure ain't making much of a difference.

Let me think... Talent or Leadership?

Culpepper or Hasselbeck?
Vick or Delhomme?
McNabb or Favre?

Parcells or Mike Martz?

Talent it is !!!

What say you?

Tobias-Reiper · 01-09-2005, 08:29 PM

...out of curiosity, how many times are you going to post the same thing?

GumboBC · 01-09-2005, 08:38 PM

...out of curiosity, how many times are you going to post the same thing?

To satisfy your curiosity, I only talked about leadership in one other thread.

And as the playoffs are played out, like today, it proves more and more my point about leadership being overrated.

Did that satisfy your curiosity?

LOL

BrooksMustGo · 01-09-2005, 08:59 PM

...out of curiosity, how many times are you going to post the same thing?

Tobias, I\'m so glad you joined B&G.net. You\'re very quickly becoming one of my favorite members here.

Maybe it would be easier to label these threads like:
Absolve Leon Thread #1
Absolve Leon Thread #2
Absolve Leon Thread #3

But to go ahead and talk about the merits of the thread for just a second.

In the Vikings win today, who is the leader of that team if not Culpepper? I wonder if the Packers suffer from a home field ego syndrome. They always make a big deal about how they can\'t be beaten at Lambeau in the playoffs. I wonder if they thought they were so bullet-proof that they didn\'t take the Vikings seriously?

I refuse to discuss the Carolina QB.

But why does it have to be either/or? I think everyone would agree that Norman Schwatzkoff is a great leader, but he probably doesn\'t have the physical tools/talent to lead an NFL team to the superbowl.

It goes without saying that to play professional football, you have to have physical talent/ability/prowess. The physical stuff is the ticket that gets you in. Everyone would also agree that Sullivan has all the physical ability/talent to be an elite DT, but he can\'t even stay dressed to play. What a player does with that talent when they get in seems to make all the difference.

So why can\'t we be talking more both/and?

ScottyRo · 01-09-2005, 09:01 PM

Lack of leadership by HC and QB:

Saints, missing playoffs 4 straight years.

UK_WhoDat · 01-09-2005, 10:02 PM

ScottyRo - almost right; you forgot the organization; i.e. TB.

The defining characteristics of gumbo are the type of stock used and the thickening agent used. - Too much thickening I fear :shrug:

JKool · 01-10-2005, 04:04 AM

Let\'s just say I agree with you Gator (since I think I do). On your acount it seems to me that the following hold:

1. You can\'t determine who is a good leader based on wins/losses.
2. You can\'t determine who is a good leader based on on-field performance, since there may be no one to lead.
3. You can\'t determine who is a good leader based on getting to the playoffs.
4. You can\'t determine who is a good leader due to success of the team, since other players may be getting the job done.

If you say that you can determine who is a good leader based on what his teammates say, then Haz IS a good leader, since so many players have recently come forward to say that it is so (or at least that Haz was getting a bum wrap).

Sounds good to me that leadership is always a plus, but how can you know that? It seems to me that you\'ve left know real way of determining who is a leader and who isn\'t. Perhaps Billy\'s reasoning just isn\'t there, but your skepticism is too trenchant here.

It is my view that leadership is determined on the basis of a complex set of things that INCLUDES wins/losses, playoff appearances, personal stats, testimony of teammates and opponents, and so on. So, it seems to me that while Billy\'s argument is far from complete, it is nowhere near as off track as you\'ve made it seem.

JKool · 01-10-2005, 04:11 AM

PS - I couldn\'t resist.

... leadership is AB\'s flaw. Big deal, Peyton Manning can\'t run; that\'s his flaw. Farve takes too many chances ; that\'s his flaw. Jake doesn\'t have a strong arm; that\'s his flaw.

Gator, I don\'t understand how you can even mention AB along with Peyton and Farve? Were you COMPARING them? I don\'t get it. You know that is IMPOSSIBLE, right?

coastalkid · 01-10-2005, 05:59 AM

For what it is worth my two cents......a good/great leader is a person who inspires others to up their performance. He doesn\'t necessarily have to be the guy who always wins or does it all himself but through his motivational ability brings out the best in those around him. If for one second you think that Bret Favre is NOT a great leader then you, my friend, are just wrong. His play in loosing or winning brings out the best in MOST of his team mates. He \"inspires\" those around him that \"we\" together can do this. THAT is a leader.

spkb25 · 01-10-2005, 09:34 AM

i\'d beg to different on culpepper n mcnabb. i think they are leaders.

01-09-2005, 07:54 PM	#1
GumboBC Banned Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 2,616	Leadership Favre, Delhomme, Hasselbeck, Trent Green, all considered great leaders... Yet, what did it get them? Favre - Threw 4 ints in the first playoff game and got his team bounced by the lowly Vikings!! Delhomme -- From superbowl to ummmm... sitting at home watching the playoffs. Culpepper, Vick, McNabb, Bulger -- Not considered to be leaders. Where are they at. Vick -- Won the NFC South and had the second best record in the NFC. McNabb -- Won division and had best record in NFC. Culpepper -- Threw 4TDs and beat Favre on his home turf!! Bulger -- Beat Hasselbeck and the Seahawks on their home turf. And then there's leadership from the coaches.. Parcells? Gruden? Holmgren? Shannahan? Can someone explain to me what leadership is doing for those folks this year? It sure ain't making much of a difference. Let me think... Talent or Leadership? Culpepper or Hasselbeck? Vick or Delhomme? McNabb or Favre? Parcells or Mike Martz? Talent it is !!! What say you?
GumboBC Banned Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 2,616

01-09-2005, 08:38 PM	#3
GumboBC Banned Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 2,616	Leadership ...out of curiosity, how many times are you going to post the same thing? To satisfy your curiosity, I only talked about leadership in one other thread. And as the playoffs are played out, like today, it proves more and more my point about leadership being overrated. Did that satisfy your curiosity? LOL
GumboBC Banned Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 2,616

01-09-2005, 08:59 PM	#4
BrooksMustGo 1000 Posts + Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 1,762	Leadership ...out of curiosity, how many times are you going to post the same thing? Tobias, I\'m so glad you joined B&G.net. You\'re very quickly becoming one of my favorite members here. Maybe it would be easier to label these threads like: Absolve Leon Thread #1 Absolve Leon Thread #2 Absolve Leon Thread #3 But to go ahead and talk about the merits of the thread for just a second. In the Vikings win today, who is the leader of that team if not Culpepper? I wonder if the Packers suffer from a home field ego syndrome. They always make a big deal about how they can\'t be beaten at Lambeau in the playoffs. I wonder if they thought they were so bullet-proof that they didn\'t take the Vikings seriously? I refuse to discuss the Carolina QB. But why does it have to be either/or? I think everyone would agree that Norman Schwatzkoff is a great leader, but he probably doesn\'t have the physical tools/talent to lead an NFL team to the superbowl. It goes without saying that to play professional football, you have to have physical talent/ability/prowess. The physical stuff is the ticket that gets you in. Everyone would also agree that Sullivan has all the physical ability/talent to be an elite DT, but he can\'t even stay dressed to play. What a player does with that talent when they get in seems to make all the difference. So why can\'t we be talking more both/and?
	http://www.blackandgold.net/site/signature/buddysig.jpg

01-09-2005, 09:01 PM	#5
ScottyRo 1000 Posts + Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Williamsburg, VA (ugh, the food here) Posts: 1,704	Leadership Lack of leadership by HC and QB: Saints, missing playoffs 4 straight years.

01-09-2005, 10:02 PM	#6
UK_WhoDat 1000 Posts + Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Wherever I lay my hat Posts: 3,947	Leadership ScottyRo - almost right; you forgot the organization; i.e. TB. The defining characteristics of gumbo are the type of stock used and the thickening agent used. - Too much thickening I fear :shrug:

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01-09-2005, 08:29 PM	#2
Tobias-Reiper Merces Letifer Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 4,161	Leadership ...out of curiosity, how many times are you going to post the same thing?

01-10-2005, 04:04 AM	#7
JKool 1000 Posts + Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Madison, WI Posts: 2,423	Leadership Let\'s just say I agree with you Gator (since I think I do). On your acount it seems to me that the following hold: 1. You can\'t determine who is a good leader based on wins/losses. 2. You can\'t determine who is a good leader based on on-field performance, since there may be no one to lead. 3. You can\'t determine who is a good leader based on getting to the playoffs. 4. You can\'t determine who is a good leader due to success of the team, since other players may be getting the job done. If you say that you can determine who is a good leader based on what his teammates say, then Haz IS a good leader, since so many players have recently come forward to say that it is so (or at least that Haz was getting a bum wrap). Sounds good to me that leadership is always a plus, but how can you know that? It seems to me that you\'ve left know real way of determining who is a leader and who isn\'t. Perhaps Billy\'s reasoning just isn\'t there, but your skepticism is too trenchant here. It is my view that leadership is determined on the basis of a complex set of things that INCLUDES wins/losses, playoff appearances, personal stats, testimony of teammates and opponents, and so on. So, it seems to me that while Billy\'s argument is far from complete, it is nowhere near as off track as you\'ve made it seem.
	"... I was beating them with my eyes the whole game..." - Aaron Brooks

01-10-2005, 04:11 AM	#8
JKool 1000 Posts + Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Madison, WI Posts: 2,423	Leadership PS - I couldn\'t resist. ... leadership is AB\'s flaw. Big deal, Peyton Manning can\'t run; that\'s his flaw. Farve takes too many chances ; that\'s his flaw. Jake doesn\'t have a strong arm; that\'s his flaw. Gator, I don\'t understand how you can even mention AB along with Peyton and Farve? Were you COMPARING them? I don\'t get it. You know that is IMPOSSIBLE, right?

01-10-2005, 05:59 AM	#9
coastalkid 100th Post Join Date: May 2003 Location: Spain Posts: 287	Leadership For what it is worth my two cents......a good/great leader is a person who inspires others to up their performance. He doesn\'t necessarily have to be the guy who always wins or does it all himself but through his motivational ability brings out the best in those around him. If for one second you think that Bret Favre is NOT a great leader then you, my friend, are just wrong. His play in loosing or winning brings out the best in MOST of his team mates. He \"inspires\" those around him that \"we\" together can do this. THAT is a leader.

01-10-2005, 09:34 AM	#10
spkb25 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Baltimore, MD Posts: 13,097	Leadership i\'d beg to different on culpepper n mcnabb. i think they are leaders.