Blowing up some arguments

saintswhodi · 01-24-2005, 09:40 PM

I am glad you watched that Gumbo. Did you watch him stink up Irving Stadium? Did you watch the backwards pass? Did you watch the under-handed throw to John Mobley? You realize he doesn\'t play for us right? Or how about in the first game when we were down 14-7 to Seattle and your guys throws an INT on his side of the field giving Seattle the ball IN THEIR OWN RED ZONE and effectively ending the game? I guess the D shoulda stopped them when they had just gotten off the field in the second half huh? Come on man.

Brooks gets 10%, like I said in my mind that is high when it is for an INDIVIDUAL PLAYER. Front Office and Haslett get 60 or 70% combined, and they aren\'t going anywhere so no fixing 90% won\'t get us anywhere cause we are keeping what I consider to be an adiitional 60%-70% along with Brooks. Understand now?

And I NEVER said Brooks was the BIGGEST problem, I said he is a big problem. Unlike you, I listen to people\'s arguments, and this is the second time in this one alone you have been off base and completely mis-stating what I have said. I guess when you have no good counter argument, mis-interpret and argue that misrepresentation right? Here\'s a small token of what I am talking about

Here is where I stand on the off-season. If we go LB and T in free agency, I already consider us ahead of the game. That leaves us safety in the first round if Thomas Davis is available. Or Travis Johnson at DT. That takes care of 3 of the 4 biggest needs between free agency and the draft. If we trade Leon after free agency, that probably gives us a player or an extra pick in the draft, one or the other. I for one am not against a rookie starting at qb, cause I don\'t see us winning with the one we have. I think that\'s where our biggest divide in our arguments is. QB is lower on your list cause you think we can win with AB. I do not.

Now maybe you can see where I listed THREE BIGGER PROBLEMS and how to address them. At least if you are gonna disagree with me, disagree with what I say and not what you make up.

saintswhodi · 01-24-2005, 09:43 PM

Apparently about 1/10th as much as we discuss Aaron Brooks.

Excuse me if I am wrong here but you do have the option to ignore any discussion about AB right? You aren\'t forced to read it or take part. If I am wrong about that, let me know. But if you don\'t wanna talk about it, you don\'t have to. You have a choice. I am choosing to talk about it, and not talk about something else. I see no reason why anyone needs to be told what is more important to discuss.

GumboBC · 01-24-2005, 09:55 PM

saintwhodi--

Okay, my bad. I guess you don\'t think Brooks is the BIGGEST problem. I\'ll admit, I haven\'t read every post you have ever made.

But, nevertheless, I do see that the MAJORITY of your posts are about Brooks.

Look, the QB position, by nature, is going to make more mistakes than any other SINGLE position on the team. Brooks\' INTs didn\'t keep us out of the playoffs. Brooks ints were no wose than these guys:

Tom Brady: 14INTS
Brett Favre: 17INTS
Trent Green: 17INTS
Jake Delhomme: 15INTS
Matt Hasselbeck: 15INTS
Mark Bulger: 15INTS

Some had a couple more or a couple less. You think all of those guys are bums?

Besides that, Brooks threw the 3rd most passes in the NFL. And did it behind one of the worst O-lines in the NFL.

You fail to take other things in to consideration and skew the facts!!

[Edited on 25/1/2005 by GumboBC]

saintswhodi · 01-24-2005, 10:01 PM

I am not failing to take anything into consideration. Does Tom Brady lead his team to the Superbowl? Hell the playoffs? Every guy you listed does. See the difference now? I am not skewing anything. I am tired of EVERY season we have a new excuse as to why AB isn\'t the qb he should be, and I am ready for him to go. You aren\'t, I get that. But I am. So to that end, WE WILL NEVER AGREE until AB burns you again. But then I am sure there are more excuses ready. Why don\'t we just start preparing them now? We don\'t have to wait for the season.

And that quote was from this argument. You don\'t have to read all of them, just everything that is said. Any time you mention Brooks and it isn\'t praising him, people wanna say you think he is the biggest problem and I never said that.

GumboBC · 01-24-2005, 10:10 PM

Look, you want to talk about Brooks\' INTs. Fine. But, when I put them in some kind of context .. LIKE:

Tom Brady: 14INTS
Brett Favre: 17INTS
Trent Green: 17INTS
Jake Delhomme: 15INTS
Matt Hasselbeck: 15INTS
Mark Bulger: 15INTS

You don\'t want to hear it. INTs are INTs. No matter who makes them. It\'s just some TEAMS have the ability to overcome them.

Tom Brady, or any other QB, has never scored a TD by themselves.

Tom Brady\'s O-line gives him time to throw the ball almost all the time. Tom Brady\'s receivers get open. And Tom Brady\'s receivers catch the ball on a CONSISTENT basis.

What\'s more, Tom Brady\'s defense takes care of their business and gives him opportunity after opportunity by creating turnovers and stopping the opposing team\'s offense.

Tom Brady and the Pats offense only trailed in ONE quarter this year. That sure makes it easy on on QB. ANY QB!!

saintswhodi · 01-24-2005, 10:40 PM

That\'s why arguments like this never end. Now you put it on Brady\'s team. What about Culpepper and Bulger\'s teams? That was my argument. But you have to compare AB and our team to Brady and a dynasty. Classic. Stick with Bulger and Culpepper. Why are their teams, which have the same problems as ours, able to get into the playoffs? Hhhmmm. Also, the Pats caoch makes ours coach looks like Gilbert Gottfried. But Mike Tice doesn\'t, people think Martz is an idiot. So explain that to me.

RDOX · 01-25-2005, 09:59 AM

That\'s why arguments like this never end. Now you put it on Brady\'s team. What about Culpepper and Bulger\'s teams? That was my argument. But you have to compare AB and our team to Brady and a dynasty. Classic. Stick with Bulger and Culpepper. Why are their teams, which have the same problems as ours, able to get into the playoffs? Hhhmmm. Also, the Pats caoch makes ours coach looks like Gilbert Gottfried. But Mike Tice doesn\'t, people think Martz is an idiot. So explain that to me.

Whodi!!

You are fighting a losing fight. You have logic and common sense in your corner and the children look at the statistics. What the children don\'t realize is that the W-L percentage is the only real meaningful statistic. Leon has guided a talented offense to successive 8-8 season on the back of his \"greatness.\" While Culpepper, Bulger, and others have done slightly better. Why, because they are TEAM oriented and not SELF oriented. Leon is about 10% of the problem, but his ME FIRST attitude trickles down to the other 90% of the problem. One wonders if the real \"cancer\" in the locker room was Roaf, Turley, pick one. The dissention on the plane and in other places during the season is indicative of the negative feelings that the team has toward Leon. As I have said in the past, Leon is not the entire problem, but he IS the lightning rod for all that is wrong with the Saints.

After 5 years of 8-8, don\'t you think that it\'s time to TRY SOMETHING ELSE? Leon simply doesn\'t get it done, so, cut your losses and move on. I\'m not in love with Kitna, but he does appear to understand how a TEAM works, Leon doesn\'t. Therefore, let\'s looke at getting Kitna here for a season or two while we groom a young talented QB that we draft.

saintswhodi · 01-25-2005, 10:14 AM

I am right there with you RDOX. That\'s what I am trying to get Gumbo to understand about my viewpoint. Just cause I say Leon is 10% of the problem, does not mean the other 90 being fixed would cure anything. If we change the other 90% and not Leon, he will just corrupt them as well. He is like a virus, and this team is the computer he is ruining. It\'s funny to me that Gumbo says no to Moss in another thread, a selfish player actually considered one of the greatest receivers of all time already, yet he says yes to Leon a selfish player who has done nothing but run his mouth and embarrass this team. Like I said before, classic.

JKool · 01-25-2005, 11:30 AM

There is a limit to the number of problems that can be addressed in the offseason. We have only so many draft picks, so much money, so many available options, and so much available time. This, it seems to me, makes it the case that we have to prioritize. My priority list goes like this: LB, OT, LB, DT, OT, S, CB, and then maybe QB (but that is in close with TE, Backup RB, another Safety, and an OG).

GumboBC · 01-25-2005, 11:31 AM

RDOX & Whodi --

On one hand you guys claim that Brooks is only 10% of the problem. Then, in the same breath, you blame Brooks for just about every thing !!

For example:

Quote by saintwhodi:
Just cause I say Leon is 10% of the problem, does not mean the other 90 being fixed would cure anything.

You CAN\'T have it both ways. You either think Brooks is only 10% of the problem or you blame him for us not making the playoffs. Which means Brooks is much more than 10% of the problem. Surly you can understand that?

What do you mean if we fix the other 90% of the problems that you don\'t think that would cure anything?

Am I suppose to take that seriously? You\'ve got to be kidding me!!

I suppose having a defense that ranks last in the league didn\'t cost us a playoff spot. That\'s funny, \'cause when the defense starting playing well over the last 4-weeks, we NEVER lost a game. And guess who the QB was over the last 4 games? That\'s right.... Aaron Brooks.

As far as Bulger and Culpepper go. Well, both their teams finished 8-8. They had the same record as us. And we beat the Rams in our head-to-head match-up!!! How the Rams went to the playoffs and we didn\'t, I have no idea.

And guess what buddy, both the Rams and the Vikings have more talent than us. Or at least as much. I happen to think they have more talent myself!!

According to you guys, we have a playoff team if we had another QB. You really want us to believe that?

Not today, not tomorrow, not the next day either. I don\'t believe that!!!

01-24-2005, 09:40 PM	#31
saintswhodi 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: San Antonio, TX Posts: 6,941	Blowing up some arguments I am glad you watched that Gumbo. Did you watch him stink up Irving Stadium? Did you watch the backwards pass? Did you watch the under-handed throw to John Mobley? You realize he doesn\'t play for us right? Or how about in the first game when we were down 14-7 to Seattle and your guys throws an INT on his side of the field giving Seattle the ball IN THEIR OWN RED ZONE and effectively ending the game? I guess the D shoulda stopped them when they had just gotten off the field in the second half huh? Come on man. Brooks gets 10%, like I said in my mind that is high when it is for an INDIVIDUAL PLAYER. Front Office and Haslett get 60 or 70% combined, and they aren\'t going anywhere so no fixing 90% won\'t get us anywhere cause we are keeping what I consider to be an adiitional 60%-70% along with Brooks. Understand now? And I NEVER said Brooks was the BIGGEST problem, I said he is a big problem. Unlike you, I listen to people\'s arguments, and this is the second time in this one alone you have been off base and completely mis-stating what I have said. I guess when you have no good counter argument, mis-interpret and argue that misrepresentation right? Here\'s a small token of what I am talking about Here is where I stand on the off-season. If we go LB and T in free agency, I already consider us ahead of the game. That leaves us safety in the first round if Thomas Davis is available. Or Travis Johnson at DT. That takes care of 3 of the 4 biggest needs between free agency and the draft. If we trade Leon after free agency, that probably gives us a player or an extra pick in the draft, one or the other. I for one am not against a rookie starting at qb, cause I don\'t see us winning with the one we have. I think that\'s where our biggest divide in our arguments is. QB is lower on your list cause you think we can win with AB. I do not. Now maybe you can see where I listed THREE BIGGER PROBLEMS and how to address them. At least if you are gonna disagree with me, disagree with what I say and not what you make up.

01-24-2005, 09:43 PM	#32
saintswhodi 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: San Antonio, TX Posts: 6,941	Blowing up some arguments Apparently about 1/10th as much as we discuss Aaron Brooks. Excuse me if I am wrong here but you do have the option to ignore any discussion about AB right? You aren\'t forced to read it or take part. If I am wrong about that, let me know. But if you don\'t wanna talk about it, you don\'t have to. You have a choice. I am choosing to talk about it, and not talk about something else. I see no reason why anyone needs to be told what is more important to discuss.

01-24-2005, 09:55 PM	#33
GumboBC Banned Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 2,616	Blowing up some arguments saintwhodi-- Okay, my bad. I guess you don\'t think Brooks is the BIGGEST problem. I\'ll admit, I haven\'t read every post you have ever made. But, nevertheless, I do see that the MAJORITY of your posts are about Brooks. Look, the QB position, by nature, is going to make more mistakes than any other SINGLE position on the team. Brooks\' INTs didn\'t keep us out of the playoffs. Brooks ints were no wose than these guys: Tom Brady: 14INTS Brett Favre: 17INTS Trent Green: 17INTS Jake Delhomme: 15INTS Matt Hasselbeck: 15INTS Mark Bulger: 15INTS Some had a couple more or a couple less. You think all of those guys are bums? Besides that, Brooks threw the 3rd most passes in the NFL. And did it behind one of the worst O-lines in the NFL. You fail to take other things in to consideration and skew the facts!! [Edited on 25/1/2005 by GumboBC]
GumboBC Banned Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 2,616

01-24-2005, 10:01 PM	#34
saintswhodi 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: San Antonio, TX Posts: 6,941	Blowing up some arguments I am not failing to take anything into consideration. Does Tom Brady lead his team to the Superbowl? Hell the playoffs? Every guy you listed does. See the difference now? I am not skewing anything. I am tired of EVERY season we have a new excuse as to why AB isn\'t the qb he should be, and I am ready for him to go. You aren\'t, I get that. But I am. So to that end, WE WILL NEVER AGREE until AB burns you again. But then I am sure there are more excuses ready. Why don\'t we just start preparing them now? We don\'t have to wait for the season. And that quote was from this argument. You don\'t have to read all of them, just everything that is said. Any time you mention Brooks and it isn\'t praising him, people wanna say you think he is the biggest problem and I never said that.

01-24-2005, 10:10 PM	#35
GumboBC Banned Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 2,616	Blowing up some arguments Look, you want to talk about Brooks\' INTs. Fine. But, when I put them in some kind of context .. LIKE: Tom Brady: 14INTS Brett Favre: 17INTS Trent Green: 17INTS Jake Delhomme: 15INTS Matt Hasselbeck: 15INTS Mark Bulger: 15INTS You don\'t want to hear it. INTs are INTs. No matter who makes them. It\'s just some TEAMS have the ability to overcome them. Tom Brady, or any other QB, has never scored a TD by themselves. Tom Brady\'s O-line gives him time to throw the ball almost all the time. Tom Brady\'s receivers get open. And Tom Brady\'s receivers catch the ball on a CONSISTENT basis. What\'s more, Tom Brady\'s defense takes care of their business and gives him opportunity after opportunity by creating turnovers and stopping the opposing team\'s offense. Tom Brady and the Pats offense only trailed in ONE quarter this year. That sure makes it easy on on QB. ANY QB!!
GumboBC Banned Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 2,616

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01-24-2005, 10:40 PM	#36
saintswhodi 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: San Antonio, TX Posts: 6,941	Blowing up some arguments That\'s why arguments like this never end. Now you put it on Brady\'s team. What about Culpepper and Bulger\'s teams? That was my argument. But you have to compare AB and our team to Brady and a dynasty. Classic. Stick with Bulger and Culpepper. Why are their teams, which have the same problems as ours, able to get into the playoffs? Hhhmmm. Also, the Pats caoch makes ours coach looks like Gilbert Gottfried. But Mike Tice doesn\'t, people think Martz is an idiot. So explain that to me.

01-25-2005, 09:59 AM	#37
RDOX 100th Post Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 264	Blowing up some arguments That\'s why arguments like this never end. Now you put it on Brady\'s team. What about Culpepper and Bulger\'s teams? That was my argument. But you have to compare AB and our team to Brady and a dynasty. Classic. Stick with Bulger and Culpepper. Why are their teams, which have the same problems as ours, able to get into the playoffs? Hhhmmm. Also, the Pats caoch makes ours coach looks like Gilbert Gottfried. But Mike Tice doesn\'t, people think Martz is an idiot. So explain that to me. Whodi!! You are fighting a losing fight. You have logic and common sense in your corner and the children look at the statistics. What the children don\'t realize is that the W-L percentage is the only real meaningful statistic. Leon has guided a talented offense to successive 8-8 season on the back of his \"greatness.\" While Culpepper, Bulger, and others have done slightly better. Why, because they are TEAM oriented and not SELF oriented. Leon is about 10% of the problem, but his ME FIRST attitude trickles down to the other 90% of the problem. One wonders if the real \"cancer\" in the locker room was Roaf, Turley, pick one. The dissention on the plane and in other places during the season is indicative of the negative feelings that the team has toward Leon. As I have said in the past, Leon is not the entire problem, but he IS the lightning rod for all that is wrong with the Saints. After 5 years of 8-8, don\'t you think that it\'s time to TRY SOMETHING ELSE? Leon simply doesn\'t get it done, so, cut your losses and move on. I\'m not in love with Kitna, but he does appear to understand how a TEAM works, Leon doesn\'t. Therefore, let\'s looke at getting Kitna here for a season or two while we groom a young talented QB that we draft.
RDOX 100th Post Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 264

01-25-2005, 10:14 AM	#38
saintswhodi 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: San Antonio, TX Posts: 6,941	Blowing up some arguments I am right there with you RDOX. That\'s what I am trying to get Gumbo to understand about my viewpoint. Just cause I say Leon is 10% of the problem, does not mean the other 90 being fixed would cure anything. If we change the other 90% and not Leon, he will just corrupt them as well. He is like a virus, and this team is the computer he is ruining. It\'s funny to me that Gumbo says no to Moss in another thread, a selfish player actually considered one of the greatest receivers of all time already, yet he says yes to Leon a selfish player who has done nothing but run his mouth and embarrass this team. Like I said before, classic.

01-25-2005, 11:30 AM	#39
JKool 1000 Posts + Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Madison, WI Posts: 2,423	Blowing up some arguments There is a limit to the number of problems that can be addressed in the offseason. We have only so many draft picks, so much money, so many available options, and so much available time. This, it seems to me, makes it the case that we have to prioritize. My priority list goes like this: LB, OT, LB, DT, OT, S, CB, and then maybe QB (but that is in close with TE, Backup RB, another Safety, and an OG).

01-25-2005, 11:31 AM	#40
GumboBC Banned Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 2,616	Blowing up some arguments RDOX & Whodi -- On one hand you guys claim that Brooks is only 10% of the problem. Then, in the same breath, you blame Brooks for just about every thing !! For example: Quote by saintwhodi: Just cause I say Leon is 10% of the problem, does not mean the other 90 being fixed would cure anything. You CAN\'T have it both ways. You either think Brooks is only 10% of the problem or you blame him for us not making the playoffs. Which means Brooks is much more than 10% of the problem. Surly you can understand that? What do you mean if we fix the other 90% of the problems that you don\'t think that would cure anything? Am I suppose to take that seriously? You\'ve got to be kidding me!! I suppose having a defense that ranks last in the league didn\'t cost us a playoff spot. That\'s funny, \'cause when the defense starting playing well over the last 4-weeks, we NEVER lost a game. And guess who the QB was over the last 4 games? That\'s right.... Aaron Brooks. As far as Bulger and Culpepper go. Well, both their teams finished 8-8. They had the same record as us. And we beat the Rams in our head-to-head match-up!!! How the Rams went to the playoffs and we didn\'t, I have no idea. And guess what buddy, both the Rams and the Vikings have more talent than us. Or at least as much. I happen to think they have more talent myself!! According to you guys, we have a playoff team if we had another QB. You really want us to believe that? Not today, not tomorrow, not the next day either. I don\'t believe that!!!
GumboBC Banned Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 2,616