What was wrong with the offense and what direction to go?

GumboBC · 01-28-2005, 02:28 PM

From what I can tell from the fan base here at B&G ... most wanted a change at offensive coordinator. They felt the "system" was flawed. And they felt the "play calling" was bad.

Well, we're going to have that change some of you folks wanted.

But, I'm just unclear on exactly what you guys want to change with the offense.

Do you think Deuce needs more carries?

2002 New Orleans Saints 15 15 325 1388
2003 New Orleans Saints 16 16 351 1641

Deuce reguarly gets as many carries as any other RB in the league. So, that can't be it?

Surely you don't think Brooks needs to throw it more? So, that can't be it?

Do the receivers need to run different routes? If you think that, please explain it to me?

Do we need to run more screen passes? Okay, I'll agree with that one.

Do we need to throw more on first down? Run more on second down? More trick plays? What?

Do you think another offensive coordinator is going to have much more success if we don't address the offensive line?

Do you think another offensive coordinator is going to get Riely and Gandy to quit jumping offsides?

Do you think another offensive coordiantor is going to get the receievers to catch the ball more consistently?

Do you think another offensive coordinator wil make our running game more effective if Deuce gets injured again?

Let me pose this question?

Is it possible, or even LIKELY, that our offensive problems won't get any better until we get other players?

Saint_LB · 01-28-2005, 02:40 PM

I don\'t know if this has ever been suggested yet, but how about a new QB?

shadowdrinker · 01-28-2005, 02:50 PM

I think we stand a good chance of bieng more efficient on the Offensive side of the ball..If we get Trestman...

I do not think he will instantly fix the mechanics of certain players and the problems we have with them...like the false starts..and things like that...

I hope they can address the O line..that in itself would help to some degree...

My real fear is...Are they going to show as much attention to the Defense..as they are the Offense..and..how will that translate in the picking and choosing of Free Agents, and Draft picks...

Which new Coordinator will have more pull, when it comes time to start signing people...I would hope the Defense would be the first on the list...

Have the even made any serious inquiries as to whom is going to take the Vanguard of running this dismal Defense?

Not to take one subject, and turn it into another...I do think however, that if they can get Trestman..we will be a top 10 Offense...We have the Players...and he has done better with worse...on more than one occasion

Danno · 01-28-2005, 03:00 PM

From what I can tell from the fan base here at B&G ... most wanted a change at offensive coordinator. They felt the \"system\" was flawed. And they felt the \"play calling\" was bad. Well, we\'re going to have that change some of you folks wanted.

Most wanted a change at HC 1st, DC 2nd, and OC 3rd. So we aren\'t exactly getting what we want

But, I\'m just unclear on exactly what you guys want to change with the offense.
Do you think Deuce needs more carries?

No I think someone needs to coach Deuce better. He stutter steps in the backfield too much, allowing defensers to collapse on him, hits the wrong hole too often, and doesn\'t pick up blitzes as well as he should, lines up too deep too often and now appears to fumble more than he ever has. I can also predict whether we\'re going to run or pass about 90% of the time.
All that points to coaching. Or maybe Deuce is just way over-rated.

Surely you don\'t think Brooks needs to throw it more? So, that can\'t be it?
Do the receivers need to run different routes? If you think that, please explain it to me?
Do we need to run more screen passes? Okay, I\'ll agree with that one.
Do we need to throw more on first down? Run more on second down? More trick plays? What?

We have the personnel to stretch the field, and we don\'t.
Everyone knows when we\'re gonna run or pass. Horribly predictable.
We still can\'t execute a screen pass.
Defenders stack 9 in the box and we still try and run.
Every pass to Karney out of the backfield has gained 7 or 8 yards. We stopped that about week 7.
We have an explosive offense that consistently fizzles.
We have an O-line that should have gotten better, it didn\'t.
We have TE\'s who are seldom used in the passing game.
Bottom line, we have top 5 talent on offense, but don\'t perform to it.

Do you think another offensive coordinator is going to have much more success if we don\'t address the offensive line?
Do you think another offensive coordinator is going to get Riely and Gandy to quit jumping offsides?
Do you think another offensive coordiantor is going to get the receievers to catch the ball more consistently?
Do you think another offensive coordinator wil make our running game more effective if Deuce gets injured again?

Well its obvious McCarthy wouldn\'t have. Maybe with the scheme so complicated players are having to think too much about their responsibilities, and losing focus, therby drops, penaties, pouting etc.
I think its been said that no one on this team is gonna cure cancer anytime soon. Maybe thats why we run the hurry-up so well. Not too complex, just routine plays at a frantic pace.

Is it possible, or even LIKELY, that our offensive problems won\'t get any better until we get other players

Like maybe top 3 talent on offense? Then Maybe we finish in the top 10?
McCarthy wasn\'t the MAIN problem but he didn\'t light the world on fire either.

GumboBC · 01-28-2005, 03:22 PM

Thanks for the replies, guys. Although I\'m looking foward to hearing others weigh in on the subject.

Danno --

Very good post. Although I have some observations on some of what you said...

1. Stretch the field: Although, I\'m not sure if you mean we need to be primarily a big play offense... But, if that\'s what you mean, then I don\'t like that idea.

I think teams offenses who rely on stretching the field are generally inconsistent. Not that those offenses don\'t enjoy some success, but I feel teams who rely more on the short passing game are more consistent.

It\'s just less of a chance to complete a pass the further you throw the ball. The Vikings are a prime example of what happens when teams shut that down.

On the other hand, you have teams like the Eagles, Pats, and even the Rams who throw the ball short and enjoy more success. Now, all of those teams take their shots down the field. But the Rams get a lot of YAC once the receivers catch the ball.

So, I\'m not so sure I want us to stretch the field a whole lot.

I do think another offensive coordinator can help come up with more creative ways of getting receiver open and help Deuce get more envolved in the passing game. As well as other players.

P.S. --

Watch your step Danno. You can\'t criticize Deuce here...

shadowdrinker · 01-28-2005, 03:37 PM

Mccarthy and Trestman both employ the West Coast Offense, The entire Offense has been geared to run it..

Maybe just a few tweaks is all that\'s needed?

Danno · 01-28-2005, 03:52 PM

Thanks for the replies, guys. Although I\'m looking foward to hearing others weigh in on the subject.

Danno --

Very good post. Although I have some observations on some of what you said...

1. Stretch the field: Although, I\'m not sure if you mean we need to be primarily a big play offense... But, if that\'s what you mean, then I don\'t like that idea.

I think teams offenses who rely on stretching the field are generally inconsistent. Not that those offenses don\'t enjoy some success, but I feel teams who rely more on the short passing game are more consistent.

It\'s just less of a chance to complete a pass the further you throw the ball. The Vikings are a prime example of what happens when teams shut that down.

On the other hand, you have teams like the Eagles, Pats, and even the Rams who throw the ball short and enjoy more success. Now, all of those teams take their shots down the field. But the Rams get a lot of YAC once the receivers catch the ball.

So, I\'m not so sure I want us to stretch the field a whole lot.

I do think another offensive coordinator can help come up with more creative ways of getting receiver open and help Deuce get more envolved in the passing game. As well as other players.

P.S. --

Watch your step Danno. You can\'t criticize Deuce here...

I\'m not implying we chunk it deep 40 times a game. But I think zero probably isn\'t enough, especially when the defenses cheat up to take the greatest athelete to ever strap on a jock out of the game. (Of course, I\'ll bet his 2002 jock no longer fits)

Also, with a zillion WR\'s that run a sub 4.4, logic would dictate we take a shot deep more often than once a frickin month.

Now if McCarthy\'s offense actually was way too complex, then we\'d have some rookie offensive players taking way too long to learn the system and contribute their 1st (or 2nd) year. They\'d probably even struggle to make the active roster.
No wait...nevermind.

[Edited on 28/1/2005 by Danno]

ScottyRo · 01-28-2005, 04:34 PM

Danno, I agree throwing deep was a problem because McCarthy rarely ever called it and when he did it was always to Horn.

Otherwise, the players will still have to make plays. A change in OC wont effect that. But I know that I as well as others have listed many things that McCarthy has done to subtract from the offensive production of this team and it shouldn\'t have to be mentioned again.

Also, Gumbo, you can post stats about Deuce or whoever, but the little things that need to be fixed wont be found there. You actually have to watch the games to see the stupid playcalling, the stilted game plans, the lack of adaptation, and the incessently slow way he got the plays in.

GumboBC · 01-28-2005, 04:39 PM

Also, Gumbo, you can post stats about Deuce or whoever, but the little things that need to be fixed wont be found there. You actually have to watch the games to see the stupid playcalling, the stilted game plans, the lack of adaptation, and the incessently slow way he got the plays in.

Scotty --

I agree with ya on some of the playcalling and the other things.

I suppose I\'m a little more worried that the problems lay more in some other things other than McCarthy.

I suppose I just need to hear more about McCarthy\'s faults to feel better about the situation.

Hopefully you guys are right and all goes well.

saintswhodi · 01-28-2005, 04:48 PM

Why would you need to feel better about the situation? He is gone. It\'s over. He ain\'t coming back. It\'s not up in the air any more. Just like most have no choice but to be happy Haslett and others are coming back, you really have no choice but to feel good about whoever they bring in if you wanna stay positive about the team. You know, the \"look over here and pay no attention to a HUGE problem\" approach. You\'re pretty good at that Gumbo.

01-28-2005, 02:28 PM	#1
GumboBC Banned Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 2,616	What was wrong with the offense and what direction to go? From what I can tell from the fan base here at B&G ... most wanted a change at offensive coordinator. They felt the "system" was flawed. And they felt the "play calling" was bad. Well, we're going to have that change some of you folks wanted. But, I'm just unclear on exactly what you guys want to change with the offense. Do you think Deuce needs more carries? 2002 New Orleans Saints 15 15 325 1388 2003 New Orleans Saints 16 16 351 1641 Deuce reguarly gets as many carries as any other RB in the league. So, that can't be it? Surely you don't think Brooks needs to throw it more? So, that can't be it? Do the receivers need to run different routes? If you think that, please explain it to me? Do we need to run more screen passes? Okay, I'll agree with that one. Do we need to throw more on first down? Run more on second down? More trick plays? What? Do you think another offensive coordinator is going to have much more success if we don't address the offensive line? Do you think another offensive coordinator is going to get Riely and Gandy to quit jumping offsides? Do you think another offensive coordiantor is going to get the receievers to catch the ball more consistently? Do you think another offensive coordinator wil make our running game more effective if Deuce gets injured again? Let me pose this question? Is it possible, or even LIKELY, that our offensive problems won't get any better until we get other players?
GumboBC Banned Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 2,616

01-28-2005, 02:40 PM	#2
Saint_LB Deuce Join Date: Sep 2004 Posts: 2,894	What was wrong with the offense and what direction to go? I don\'t know if this has ever been suggested yet, but how about a new QB?
Saint_LB Deuce Join Date: Sep 2004 Posts: 2,894

01-28-2005, 02:50 PM	#3
shadowdrinker Banned Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 517	What was wrong with the offense and what direction to go? I think we stand a good chance of bieng more efficient on the Offensive side of the ball..If we get Trestman... I do not think he will instantly fix the mechanics of certain players and the problems we have with them...like the false starts..and things like that... I hope they can address the O line..that in itself would help to some degree... My real fear is...Are they going to show as much attention to the Defense..as they are the Offense..and..how will that translate in the picking and choosing of Free Agents, and Draft picks... Which new Coordinator will have more pull, when it comes time to start signing people...I would hope the Defense would be the first on the list... Have the even made any serious inquiries as to whom is going to take the Vanguard of running this dismal Defense? Not to take one subject, and turn it into another...I do think however, that if they can get Trestman..we will be a top 10 Offense...We have the Players...and he has done better with worse...on more than one occasion
shadowdrinker Banned Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 517

01-28-2005, 03:00 PM	#4
Danno Truth Addict Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Spanish Fort, AL (via NO and B/R) Posts: 24,713	What was wrong with the offense and what direction to go? From what I can tell from the fan base here at B&G ... most wanted a change at offensive coordinator. They felt the \"system\" was flawed. And they felt the \"play calling\" was bad. Well, we\'re going to have that change some of you folks wanted. Most wanted a change at HC 1st, DC 2nd, and OC 3rd. So we aren\'t exactly getting what we want But, I\'m just unclear on exactly what you guys want to change with the offense. Do you think Deuce needs more carries? No I think someone needs to coach Deuce better. He stutter steps in the backfield too much, allowing defensers to collapse on him, hits the wrong hole too often, and doesn\'t pick up blitzes as well as he should, lines up too deep too often and now appears to fumble more than he ever has. I can also predict whether we\'re going to run or pass about 90% of the time. All that points to coaching. Or maybe Deuce is just way over-rated. Surely you don\'t think Brooks needs to throw it more? So, that can\'t be it? Do the receivers need to run different routes? If you think that, please explain it to me? Do we need to run more screen passes? Okay, I\'ll agree with that one. Do we need to throw more on first down? Run more on second down? More trick plays? What? We have the personnel to stretch the field, and we don\'t. Everyone knows when we\'re gonna run or pass. Horribly predictable. We still can\'t execute a screen pass. Defenders stack 9 in the box and we still try and run. Every pass to Karney out of the backfield has gained 7 or 8 yards. We stopped that about week 7. We have an explosive offense that consistently fizzles. We have an O-line that should have gotten better, it didn\'t. We have TE\'s who are seldom used in the passing game. Bottom line, we have top 5 talent on offense, but don\'t perform to it. Do you think another offensive coordinator is going to have much more success if we don\'t address the offensive line? Do you think another offensive coordinator is going to get Riely and Gandy to quit jumping offsides? Do you think another offensive coordiantor is going to get the receievers to catch the ball more consistently? Do you think another offensive coordinator wil make our running game more effective if Deuce gets injured again? Well its obvious McCarthy wouldn\'t have. Maybe with the scheme so complicated players are having to think too much about their responsibilities, and losing focus, therby drops, penaties, pouting etc. I think its been said that no one on this team is gonna cure cancer anytime soon. Maybe thats why we run the hurry-up so well. Not too complex, just routine plays at a frantic pace. Is it possible, or even LIKELY, that our offensive problems won\'t get any better until we get other players Like maybe top 3 talent on offense? Then Maybe we finish in the top 10? McCarthy wasn\'t the MAIN problem but he didn\'t light the world on fire either.

01-28-2005, 03:22 PM	#5
GumboBC Banned Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 2,616	What was wrong with the offense and what direction to go? Thanks for the replies, guys. Although I\'m looking foward to hearing others weigh in on the subject. Danno -- Very good post. Although I have some observations on some of what you said... 1. Stretch the field: Although, I\'m not sure if you mean we need to be primarily a big play offense... But, if that\'s what you mean, then I don\'t like that idea. I think teams offenses who rely on stretching the field are generally inconsistent. Not that those offenses don\'t enjoy some success, but I feel teams who rely more on the short passing game are more consistent. It\'s just less of a chance to complete a pass the further you throw the ball. The Vikings are a prime example of what happens when teams shut that down. On the other hand, you have teams like the Eagles, Pats, and even the Rams who throw the ball short and enjoy more success. Now, all of those teams take their shots down the field. But the Rams get a lot of YAC once the receivers catch the ball. So, I\'m not so sure I want us to stretch the field a whole lot. I do think another offensive coordinator can help come up with more creative ways of getting receiver open and help Deuce get more envolved in the passing game. As well as other players. P.S. -- Watch your step Danno. You can\'t criticize Deuce here...
GumboBC Banned Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 2,616

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01-28-2005, 03:37 PM	#6
shadowdrinker Banned Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 517	What was wrong with the offense and what direction to go? Mccarthy and Trestman both employ the West Coast Offense, The entire Offense has been geared to run it.. Maybe just a few tweaks is all that\'s needed?
shadowdrinker Banned Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 517

01-28-2005, 03:52 PM	#7
Danno Truth Addict Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Spanish Fort, AL (via NO and B/R) Posts: 24,713	What was wrong with the offense and what direction to go? Thanks for the replies, guys. Although I\'m looking foward to hearing others weigh in on the subject. Danno -- Very good post. Although I have some observations on some of what you said... 1. Stretch the field: Although, I\'m not sure if you mean we need to be primarily a big play offense... But, if that\'s what you mean, then I don\'t like that idea. I think teams offenses who rely on stretching the field are generally inconsistent. Not that those offenses don\'t enjoy some success, but I feel teams who rely more on the short passing game are more consistent. It\'s just less of a chance to complete a pass the further you throw the ball. The Vikings are a prime example of what happens when teams shut that down. On the other hand, you have teams like the Eagles, Pats, and even the Rams who throw the ball short and enjoy more success. Now, all of those teams take their shots down the field. But the Rams get a lot of YAC once the receivers catch the ball. So, I\'m not so sure I want us to stretch the field a whole lot. I do think another offensive coordinator can help come up with more creative ways of getting receiver open and help Deuce get more envolved in the passing game. As well as other players. P.S. -- Watch your step Danno. You can\'t criticize Deuce here... I\'m not implying we chunk it deep 40 times a game. But I think zero probably isn\'t enough, especially when the defenses cheat up to take the greatest athelete to ever strap on a jock out of the game. (Of course, I\'ll bet his 2002 jock no longer fits) Also, with a zillion WR\'s that run a sub 4.4, logic would dictate we take a shot deep more often than once a frickin month. Now if McCarthy\'s offense actually was way too complex, then we\'d have some rookie offensive players taking way too long to learn the system and contribute their 1st (or 2nd) year. They\'d probably even struggle to make the active roster. No wait...nevermind. [Edited on 28/1/2005 by Danno]

01-28-2005, 04:34 PM	#8
ScottyRo 1000 Posts + Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Williamsburg, VA (ugh, the food here) Posts: 1,704	What was wrong with the offense and what direction to go? Danno, I agree throwing deep was a problem because McCarthy rarely ever called it and when he did it was always to Horn. Otherwise, the players will still have to make plays. A change in OC wont effect that. But I know that I as well as others have listed many things that McCarthy has done to subtract from the offensive production of this team and it shouldn\'t have to be mentioned again. Also, Gumbo, you can post stats about Deuce or whoever, but the little things that need to be fixed wont be found there. You actually have to watch the games to see the stupid playcalling, the stilted game plans, the lack of adaptation, and the incessently slow way he got the plays in.

01-28-2005, 04:39 PM	#9
GumboBC Banned Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 2,616	What was wrong with the offense and what direction to go? Also, Gumbo, you can post stats about Deuce or whoever, but the little things that need to be fixed wont be found there. You actually have to watch the games to see the stupid playcalling, the stilted game plans, the lack of adaptation, and the incessently slow way he got the plays in. Scotty -- I agree with ya on some of the playcalling and the other things. I suppose I\'m a little more worried that the problems lay more in some other things other than McCarthy. I suppose I just need to hear more about McCarthy\'s faults to feel better about the situation. Hopefully you guys are right and all goes well.
GumboBC Banned Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 2,616

01-28-2005, 04:48 PM	#10
saintswhodi 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: San Antonio, TX Posts: 6,941	What was wrong with the offense and what direction to go? Why would you need to feel better about the situation? He is gone. It\'s over. He ain\'t coming back. It\'s not up in the air any more. Just like most have no choice but to be happy Haslett and others are coming back, you really have no choice but to feel good about whoever they bring in if you wanna stay positive about the team. You know, the \"look over here and pay no attention to a HUGE problem\" approach. You\'re pretty good at that Gumbo.