Evaluating our offense

Danno · 01-31-2005, 12:12 PM

Gumbo, I assume your intent is to point out that we didn\'t really under-achieve, we just didn\'t really have talent. The coaches didn\'t really have much to work with. There\'s no question in my mind the offense underachieved, everyone should get a C based on outcome. So I don\'t see what you\'re trying to get at. But here\'s a snapshot of the talent going into the season.

QB-More than adequate, needed to work on consistency. Grade B
RB-Deuce is as good as any RB in the league. Stecker is a perfect compliment-Grade A
FB-Solid rookie, Hard to give a rookie much more than a C though. Grade C
TE-Boo was on pace to flirt with a pro-bowl.
Conwell, a proven vet, consistent througout career.
Hall-Devastating blocker and great. Grade-B
WR-I can\'t think of another team as loaded at WR from top to bottom as this team was. Grade-A
O-Line- Riley flirted with a pro bowl last year. Gandy has always been solid, although unspectacular. Bentley a pro-bowler.Holand, a road-grater entering 2nd year. This unit probably had as much TALENT as any on this team except RB. This line was loaded when the season began. Grade-B plus

Now lets look at what happened.
Brooks-Underachieved by anyone\'s measure
Deuce-Underachieved, no question
Karney-good year
Horn-spectacular
Donte-good consistent year
Pathon-decent year for a 3rd WR
Boo-Horribly Underachieved
Conwell-Underachieved
Riley-Underachieved, to say the least
Gandy-Underachieved
Holland-Underachieved
Jacox-Underachieved
Bentley-Underachieved early due to position switch, came on late.

Looks to me like we have a very talented roster that underachieved. Not as bad as the defense, but without question didn\'t play to their capabilities

GumboBC · 01-31-2005, 12:29 PM

Danno --

Certain players underachieved. No doubt about it.

But, I think SOME folks think there\'s much more talent on the offense that what it is.

Boo Wiliams -- He hasn\'t ever done much. Until he does it, I don\'t know what he can do and thus have no way of knowing if Boo will ever do anything above average.

Donte\': He\'s never done too much. Until Donte\' ever makes the impact he should, then I don\'t know if he will EVER do it. I\'d like to think he could do it, but he hasn\'t done it and who\'s to say he ever will?

Riley: I\'ve seen enough of him to know I want him to do it somewhere esle.

Conwell: Done nothing but drop passes since he\'s been a Saint. Maybe he\'s done. Sure looks like it to me.

Gandy: Showing signs of age and is well below average at this point.

All I see is Horn and Deuce that I know can get the job done.

I don\'t know that all the coaching in the world is ever going to get Donte and Boo to perform up to the way we \"think\" they can play.

At this point there\'s only hope.

FB-- He did okay for a rookie. He\'s hardly a game changer, though.

How can you give our WR\'s an \'A\' ? On potential, yes!! On performance..........\'C\'.

Look, I\'m not talking about potential here. I\'m talking about performance up to the \"point.\"

I think coaching can help get more out of a lot of this players. Or at least I hope so.

Lets not go counting our chickens yet!!

LKelley67 · 01-31-2005, 12:30 PM

good analysis Danno. i think bentley will be as good at c as g so some slack for him in the transition (but might those transition woes have been avoided with fontenot for one more season). jacox and holland were under but nothing like the slowing of gandy and riley\'s stomach growing like the heavy lunch bunch. nesbitt is a pretty decent backup too that pushed for playing time. maybe one day we will see if stinch really stinks.

baronm · 01-31-2005, 12:31 PM

Boo Wiliams -- He hasn\'t ever done much. Until he does it, I don\'t know what he can do and thus have no way of knowing if Boo will ever do anything above average.

Donte\': He\'s never done too much. Until Donte\' ever makes the impact he should, then I don\'t know if he will EVER do it. I\'d like to think he could do it, but he hasn\'t done it and who\'s to say he ever will?

Riley: I\'ve seen enough of him to know I want him to do it somewhere esle.

Conwell: Done nothing but drop passes since he\'s been a Saint. Maybe he\'s done. Sure looks like it to me.

funny0that\'s most of us\' arguement for replacing brooks.

dberce1 · 01-31-2005, 12:34 PM

Rumors have the Saints are showing interest in free agent quarterback Kurt Warner

I swear to God, I will never watch the Saints play again.

Danno · 01-31-2005, 01:00 PM

Danno --

Certain players underachieved. No doubt about it.

But, I think SOME folks think there\'s much more talent on the offense that what it is.

Boo Wiliams -- He hasn\'t ever done much. Until he does it, I don\'t know what he can do and thus have no way of knowing if Boo will ever do anything above average.

Donte\': He\'s never done too much. Until Donte\' ever makes the impact he should, then I don\'t know if he will EVER do it. I\'d like to think he could do it, but he hasn\'t done it and who\'s to say he ever will?

Riley: I\'ve seen enough of him to know I want him to do it somewhere esle.

Conwell: Done nothing but drop passes since he\'s been a Saint. Maybe he\'s done. Sure looks like it to me.

Gandy: Showing signs of age and is well below average at this point.

All I see is Horn and Deuce that I know can get the job done.

I don\'t know that all the coaching in the world is ever going to get Donte and Boo to perform up to the way we \"think\" they can play.

At this point there\'s only hope.

FB-- He did okay for a rookie. He\'s hardly a game changer, though.

How can you give our WR\'s an \'A\' ? On potential, yes!! On performance..........\'C\'.

Look, I\'m not talking about potential here. I\'m talking about performance up to the \"point.\"

I think coaching can help get more out of a lot of this players. Or at least I hope so.

Lets not go counting our chickens yet!!

This is where you lose me Billy. Are you judging this teams talent based on what they did, or what they are capable of doing if it had decent coaching.
If Moss has a down year would you consider him talentless.

No excuses. This team is absolutely loaded with talent. Coaching has held it back.

saintswhodi · 01-31-2005, 01:02 PM

So Gumbo, I am not the only one who thinks this team has talent, at least on offense. How about that?

Nice point about Moss Danno.

GumboBC · 01-31-2005, 01:10 PM

This is where you lose me Billy. Are you judging this teams talent based on what they did, or what they are capable of doing if it had decent coaching.
If Moss has a down year would you consider him talentless.

No excuses. This team is absolutely loaded with talent. Coaching has held it back.

Danno --

I agree that coaching has held some players back. To what degree, I don\'t know. And neither do you. Or anyone else for that matter.

We see all of Donte\'s physical abilities, but I have no way of knowing if he\'ll ever be the type of player we think he will?

What are these players capable of? I don\'t know. And there\'s absolutely no way to know.

Donte and Boo were suppose to have break-out years this year. But they didn\'t.

Will a new coach get them to have those break-out years next year? Or will they regress? We don\'t know. We don\'t know they will ever reach their potential. Lots of players NEVER do. And until they do, we are left with no way of knowing.

The title of this thread was: Evaluating the Offense\"

Not potential

All potential means is they haven\'t done it yet.

Maybe next year they will. Maybe they won\'t.

Mike Holmgren\'s coaching ability isn\'t getting the Seahawks incredibly talented offense to reach their potential.

The Seahawks offense is much like ours. Loads of potential. Not much in results, though. Maybe the Seahawks offensive players are overrated?

What\'s going to fix the seahawks offensive problems? Coaching?

Danno · 01-31-2005, 01:21 PM

The title of this thread was: Evaluating the Offense\"

Not potential

All potential means is they haven\'t done it yet.

But they have done it already.
Donte HAS shown he has enormous talent.
Boo also has, Riley has, Gandy has, Bentley has, Conwell has, Karney Has, Brooks has, Deuce has, Pathon has, etc.

We have a team loaded with players that HAVE shown they have talent, and a lot of it.

Maybe they ALL just ran out of talent this year at the same time.

GumboBC · 01-31-2005, 01:32 PM

Hey, Danno. I agree with you mostly.

I know you think coaching has really held a lot of players back. I do too. I\'ve said it many times in the past.

But I think the players deserve a lot of blame themselves.

Dropped passes, stupid penalties, terrible blocking. That\'s not all on the coaches.

Here\'s what I\'m thinking. Or hoping.

I think all the players need to be on the same page. I think all the players have to believe in the system. Ala.. the Patriots.

I think the players lost confidence in McCarthy\'s system and doubted themselves before they ever ran the play.

If we can get a good OC who can get the offensive players fired up and get them to believe in the system, then I think that\'s half the battle.

But where I disagree is that we have a lot of \"proven\" players on the offense.

Beyone Deuce and Horn, I don\'t know who that would be.

Boo, Donte, etc.,ect., have shown flashes. But that\'s it.

I\'m definately not sitting here thinking that those players are going to have probowl years next year. No matter who the coach is.

Those players are going to have to do something more before I\'m convinced.

01-31-2005, 12:12 PM	#11
Danno Truth Addict Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Spanish Fort, AL (via NO and B/R) Posts: 24,713	Evaluating our offense Gumbo, I assume your intent is to point out that we didn\'t really under-achieve, we just didn\'t really have talent. The coaches didn\'t really have much to work with. There\'s no question in my mind the offense underachieved, everyone should get a C based on outcome. So I don\'t see what you\'re trying to get at. But here\'s a snapshot of the talent going into the season. QB-More than adequate, needed to work on consistency. Grade B RB-Deuce is as good as any RB in the league. Stecker is a perfect compliment-Grade A FB-Solid rookie, Hard to give a rookie much more than a C though. Grade C TE-Boo was on pace to flirt with a pro-bowl. Conwell, a proven vet, consistent througout career. Hall-Devastating blocker and great. Grade-B WR-I can\'t think of another team as loaded at WR from top to bottom as this team was. Grade-A O-Line- Riley flirted with a pro bowl last year. Gandy has always been solid, although unspectacular. Bentley a pro-bowler.Holand, a road-grater entering 2nd year. This unit probably had as much TALENT as any on this team except RB. This line was loaded when the season began. Grade-B plus Now lets look at what happened. Brooks-Underachieved by anyone\'s measure Deuce-Underachieved, no question Karney-good year Horn-spectacular Donte-good consistent year Pathon-decent year for a 3rd WR Boo-Horribly Underachieved Conwell-Underachieved Riley-Underachieved, to say the least Gandy-Underachieved Holland-Underachieved Jacox-Underachieved Bentley-Underachieved early due to position switch, came on late. Looks to me like we have a very talented roster that underachieved. Not as bad as the defense, but without question didn\'t play to their capabilities

01-31-2005, 12:29 PM	#12
GumboBC Banned Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 2,616	Evaluating our offense Danno -- Certain players underachieved. No doubt about it. But, I think SOME folks think there\'s much more talent on the offense that what it is. Boo Wiliams -- He hasn\'t ever done much. Until he does it, I don\'t know what he can do and thus have no way of knowing if Boo will ever do anything above average. Donte\': He\'s never done too much. Until Donte\' ever makes the impact he should, then I don\'t know if he will EVER do it. I\'d like to think he could do it, but he hasn\'t done it and who\'s to say he ever will? Riley: I\'ve seen enough of him to know I want him to do it somewhere esle. Conwell: Done nothing but drop passes since he\'s been a Saint. Maybe he\'s done. Sure looks like it to me. Gandy: Showing signs of age and is well below average at this point. All I see is Horn and Deuce that I know can get the job done. I don\'t know that all the coaching in the world is ever going to get Donte and Boo to perform up to the way we \"think\" they can play. At this point there\'s only hope. FB-- He did okay for a rookie. He\'s hardly a game changer, though. How can you give our WR\'s an \'A\' ? On potential, yes!! On performance..........\'C\'. Look, I\'m not talking about potential here. I\'m talking about performance up to the \"point.\" I think coaching can help get more out of a lot of this players. Or at least I hope so. Lets not go counting our chickens yet!!
GumboBC Banned Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 2,616

01-31-2005, 12:30 PM	#13
LKelley67 1000 Posts + Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: baton rouge Posts: 2,540	Evaluating our offense good analysis Danno. i think bentley will be as good at c as g so some slack for him in the transition (but might those transition woes have been avoided with fontenot for one more season). jacox and holland were under but nothing like the slowing of gandy and riley\'s stomach growing like the heavy lunch bunch. nesbitt is a pretty decent backup too that pushed for playing time. maybe one day we will see if stinch really stinks.

01-31-2005, 12:31 PM	#14
baronm 500th Post Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 954	Evaluating our offense Boo Wiliams -- He hasn\'t ever done much. Until he does it, I don\'t know what he can do and thus have no way of knowing if Boo will ever do anything above average. Donte\': He\'s never done too much. Until Donte\' ever makes the impact he should, then I don\'t know if he will EVER do it. I\'d like to think he could do it, but he hasn\'t done it and who\'s to say he ever will? Riley: I\'ve seen enough of him to know I want him to do it somewhere esle. Conwell: Done nothing but drop passes since he\'s been a Saint. Maybe he\'s done. Sure looks like it to me. funny0that\'s most of us\' arguement for replacing brooks.
baronm 500th Post Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 954

01-31-2005, 12:34 PM	#15
dberce1 Chuck Liddells Right Hand Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Prairieville, Louisiana Posts: 1,227	Evaluating our offense Rumors have the Saints are showing interest in free agent quarterback Kurt Warner I swear to God, I will never watch the Saints play again.

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01-31-2005, 01:00 PM	#16
Danno Truth Addict Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Spanish Fort, AL (via NO and B/R) Posts: 24,713	Evaluating our offense Danno -- Certain players underachieved. No doubt about it. But, I think SOME folks think there\'s much more talent on the offense that what it is. Boo Wiliams -- He hasn\'t ever done much. Until he does it, I don\'t know what he can do and thus have no way of knowing if Boo will ever do anything above average. Donte\': He\'s never done too much. Until Donte\' ever makes the impact he should, then I don\'t know if he will EVER do it. I\'d like to think he could do it, but he hasn\'t done it and who\'s to say he ever will? Riley: I\'ve seen enough of him to know I want him to do it somewhere esle. Conwell: Done nothing but drop passes since he\'s been a Saint. Maybe he\'s done. Sure looks like it to me. Gandy: Showing signs of age and is well below average at this point. All I see is Horn and Deuce that I know can get the job done. I don\'t know that all the coaching in the world is ever going to get Donte and Boo to perform up to the way we \"think\" they can play. At this point there\'s only hope. FB-- He did okay for a rookie. He\'s hardly a game changer, though. How can you give our WR\'s an \'A\' ? On potential, yes!! On performance..........\'C\'. Look, I\'m not talking about potential here. I\'m talking about performance up to the \"point.\" I think coaching can help get more out of a lot of this players. Or at least I hope so. Lets not go counting our chickens yet!! This is where you lose me Billy. Are you judging this teams talent based on what they did, or what they are capable of doing if it had decent coaching. If Moss has a down year would you consider him talentless. No excuses. This team is absolutely loaded with talent. Coaching has held it back.

01-31-2005, 01:02 PM	#17
saintswhodi 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: San Antonio, TX Posts: 6,941	Evaluating our offense So Gumbo, I am not the only one who thinks this team has talent, at least on offense. How about that? Nice point about Moss Danno.

01-31-2005, 01:10 PM	#18
GumboBC Banned Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 2,616	Evaluating our offense This is where you lose me Billy. Are you judging this teams talent based on what they did, or what they are capable of doing if it had decent coaching. If Moss has a down year would you consider him talentless. No excuses. This team is absolutely loaded with talent. Coaching has held it back. Danno -- I agree that coaching has held some players back. To what degree, I don\'t know. And neither do you. Or anyone else for that matter. We see all of Donte\'s physical abilities, but I have no way of knowing if he\'ll ever be the type of player we think he will? What are these players capable of? I don\'t know. And there\'s absolutely no way to know. Donte and Boo were suppose to have break-out years this year. But they didn\'t. Will a new coach get them to have those break-out years next year? Or will they regress? We don\'t know. We don\'t know they will ever reach their potential. Lots of players NEVER do. And until they do, we are left with no way of knowing. The title of this thread was: Evaluating the Offense\" Not potential All potential means is they haven\'t done it yet. Maybe next year they will. Maybe they won\'t. Mike Holmgren\'s coaching ability isn\'t getting the Seahawks incredibly talented offense to reach their potential. The Seahawks offense is much like ours. Loads of potential. Not much in results, though. Maybe the Seahawks offensive players are overrated? What\'s going to fix the seahawks offensive problems? Coaching?
GumboBC Banned Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 2,616

01-31-2005, 01:21 PM	#19
Danno Truth Addict Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Spanish Fort, AL (via NO and B/R) Posts: 24,713	Evaluating our offense The title of this thread was: Evaluating the Offense\" Not potential All potential means is they haven\'t done it yet. But they have done it already. Donte HAS shown he has enormous talent. Boo also has, Riley has, Gandy has, Bentley has, Conwell has, Karney Has, Brooks has, Deuce has, Pathon has, etc. We have a team loaded with players that HAVE shown they have talent, and a lot of it. Maybe they ALL just ran out of talent this year at the same time.

01-31-2005, 01:32 PM	#20
GumboBC Banned Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 2,616	Evaluating our offense Hey, Danno. I agree with you mostly. I know you think coaching has really held a lot of players back. I do too. I\'ve said it many times in the past. But I think the players deserve a lot of blame themselves. Dropped passes, stupid penalties, terrible blocking. That\'s not all on the coaches. Here\'s what I\'m thinking. Or hoping. I think all the players need to be on the same page. I think all the players have to believe in the system. Ala.. the Patriots. I think the players lost confidence in McCarthy\'s system and doubted themselves before they ever ran the play. If we can get a good OC who can get the offensive players fired up and get them to believe in the system, then I think that\'s half the battle. But where I disagree is that we have a lot of \"proven\" players on the offense. Beyone Deuce and Horn, I don\'t know who that would be. Boo, Donte, etc.,ect., have shown flashes. But that\'s it. I\'m definately not sitting here thinking that those players are going to have probowl years next year. No matter who the coach is. Those players are going to have to do something more before I\'m convinced.
GumboBC Banned Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 2,616