Deuce is lazy?
 

Funny how he left out a couple of RBs that didn\'t support his point:

Ahman Green: 43.2 carries per fumble
Priest Holmes: 49.0
Edgerrin James: 55.6


I actually have tomlinson at 67.8.

So, Deuce is slightly lower than most premier Rbs last season on carries per fumble. You know IF you take away the fumble he lost on the play he got injured against SF, then he 67 carries per fumble. I know, we don;t need to play the IF game, but that\'s just an example of how much just one fumble can change this stat.

Deuce is lazy?
 

I\'ve looked and it\'s not good when compared to other RB\'s around the league.

Doesn\'t look good...

Deuce McAllister:
First 3 years as starter: 34 TD/11 fumbles lost.

Shawn Alexander:
First 3 years as a starter: 52TDs/0 fumbles lost.

Curtis Martin:
First 3 years as starter: 36TDs/4 fumbles

LaDainian Tomlinson:
First 3 years as starter: 43TDs/0-fumbles lost.

Ahman Green:
First 3 years as starter: 33TDs/0-fumbles lost

Edgerrin James:
First 3 years as starter: 34TDs/0-fumbles lost.

I\'m not making this up. I even looked at more running backs than this, but Deuce is about the worst when compared to the top running backs in the NFL.

The only one I could find worse was Tiki Barber. But even Tiki didn\'t fumble as much in his first 3 years..

Discuss??

Deuce is lazy?
 

Yeah, Scotty, I left more than that off my list. I COULD have listed more RBs that would have supported my POINT. Just didn\'t feel the need.

If I really wanted to make Deuce look bad, I could have listed fumbles \"lost\" instead of just \"fumbles\" alone.

Deuce is lazy?
 

Rekon he\'s worth the Money I\'m fairly certain he\'ll ask for? I mean, those aren\'t exactly top 5 numbers eh? LMAO

Deuce is lazy?
 

Uhh, you better post a link to those stats, sport.

I get very different results from espn.com.

Not that Deuce doesn\'t still have a worse ratio here (saintfan...look stats up before you start spouting crap?), but it\'s not nearly as bad as Gumbo would have you believe.

The first rule in the art of argument must be to lie.

oh, and justify why you leave evidence against your argument out anyway you wish. I can go get more that have a worse ratio too.

Deuce is lazy?
 

You\'re accusing me of lying? Please, stop it.

I got my stats from NFL.com. The only place I ever get stats from.

You want links, eh?

Here ya go Scotty:

Deuce stats here

Edgerrin James stats here

Curtis Martin stats here

Shawn Alexander stats here

Now, sport, how \'bout posting your stats and links to go with \'em?

You may be right and NFL.com may be wrong. But don\'t go accusing me of lying.......LMAO

Deuce is lazy?
 

Perhaps you might wanna advise me of the \"crap\" I\'m spouting ??? Perhaps you might wanna check that attitude while you\'re at it. ;)

Deuce is lazy?
 

Ok, you\'re not a liar. But you must be (something I can\'t say without getting kicked off the site).

According to your wonderful links, much appreciated btw, James, Martin and Alexander have never lost a fumble in their respective careers. For each season under Fumbles lost it posts a big 0. Of course, underneath where it supposed to add these things up, it has a figure. Couldn\'t you tell something was wrong? Didn\'t you expect that to say these three Rbs had ZERO fumbles lost in their first 3 seasons seem funny to you?

I got my stats off espn. I\'m leaving work now so if you haven\'t looked them up by then, I\'ll post a link later.

I hope that\'s a joke cuz I\'ve checked and I have plenty of attitude.

Deuce is lazy?
 

Can someone explain to me please why we are arguing over Deuce and his OCCASIONAL fumbles and still considering him a top 10 back but he can be traded(huh?), but AB who leads the team in turnovers annually and barely has stats in line with the top 20 in the league and a higher salary should stay? Trade AB and give his money to Deuce. Done and done. I just can\'t see how fumbles can be used to define how bad Deuce is, but they can be totally ignored when it comes to AB. Is this even logical? So seemingly one player can fumble willy nilly and get a free pass, while a player who until this injury plagued season WAS considered a top 5 back in the league and has a down year can be dumped? Wow.

[Edited on 2/2/2005 by saintswhodi]

Deuce is lazy?
 

I guess I\'m wondering precisely what stats I\'m supposed to look up before I start \"spouting\", and you\'re right, you might be careful when choosing the language you use. I knew the ratio wouldn\'t be good sir, and I expected most to be surprised. I guess you qualify as \"most\" huh?

Deuce is lazy?
 

Without bringing AB into this thread whodi, wouldn\'t you agree that Deuce is likely to want a relative TON of money in the near future, and wouldn\'t you further agree that we could get that production from a \"lesser\" player...a rookie even? 1000 yard backs seem pretty common these days.

Deuce is lazy?
 

But that is my EXACT argument for AB. Doesn\'t that seem hypocritical? If it works for Deuce, why not AB? He is already making comments about being under-appreciated. Deuc ehas DONE IT on a rookie contract for the past 3 years. He deserves to be paid. If we wanna examing turnovers per TD, I am sure AB\'s numbers would be appalling. But I won\'t bring that into this thread, so you guys keep thinking Deuce isn\'t worth it and AB is. Just seems flat out hypocritical to me. Where was all this talk when he was going to the pro bowl?

Deuce is lazy?
 

If it\'s your argument against AB, what\'s wrong with it regarding Deuce? Relative to the \"top\" backs, he just doesn\'t score a lot...lots of yards, but not lots of TD\'s, and that\'s what matters right? Brooks, when he requested his \"raise\", had just been the QB on the first Saints team ever to win a playoff game...and he was being paid less than the 3rd string QB. I\'d say I might have asked for one too. Might you have done the same? But that\'s enough about Brooks.

Deuce has been to a pro bowl...keyword there is \"Has\". I\'m glad for that, but I\'m not ready to give him a pass for the rest of his career for it either.

Deuce is lazy?
 

Okay, so let\'s trade both of them and start over? Fair? Other players from that playoff winning team have been shipped off, why not AB? SO let\'s just trade both of them this off-season. Okay?

Deuce is lazy?
 

After reading all of this confusion, I\'ve decided what we need to do is to take Deuce out and shoot him. If we kill him then he won\'t gain weight or sprain his ankle or anything else bad for the Saints. Let\'s do the same thing to Charles Grant, Courtney Watson, Bockwoldt, Mitch Berger, Mike McKenzie, LeCharles Bently, Joe Horn, Michael Lewis, and Brian Young.

That way we can really revel in mediocrity with AB at the helm, and Talman Gardner catching, with Henderson trying to figure out which end of the field to run toward, and Stallworth on Injured Reserve for a damned hangnail. Also, Sullivan can tackle the caterer as he makes a dash to the grocery store.

Sheeeeeeeeeeeeechhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!! You guys have way, way too much time on your hands. Billy, you need to stop posting such drivel.

Deuce is lazy?
 

I\'m not interested in trading either of \'em, \'cause don\'t think either of them are related to what the real problem with our team is. I think the real problem is now what it has been for a while now, and that\'s defense, but I do think it\'s interesting that with one some folks are ready to hang him from the highest tree based on his production and with the other we make excuse after excuse after excuse.

Deuce is lazy?
 

Now THAT\'S funny.

:rollinglaugh:

Deuce is lazy?
 

All stats and fumbles aside (seems like I can\'t get reliable stats these days.. ;) )

Deuce has been the starter for 3-years. Put up good rushing yardage in 2 of those seasons.

He would have put up good rushing yardage if not for the O-line and injuries this year.

But, his fumbe/TD ratio is pretty bad. No matter what source you get the stats from.

And Decue was labled as being injury prone coming out of college. And he hasn\'t done much to prove them wrong. He\'s gotten injured for 2 years in a row now. Is next year going to be the 3rd?

I don\'t care how good you are, you\'ve got to be on the field and not play hurt to the point where it\'s affecting your game so much. As was the case this year....

Top 5? Nope. Top 10? Yeah, I can see that.

Now, I think that was fair. Maybe some of you don\'t.

But, as saintfan said, if you\'re going to apply the rules for Brooks, then you should apply them to Deuce.

I don\'t agree with the way Brooks is judged by some and I don\'t agree with the way Deuce is judged by some.

I can compare Deuce\'s TD/fumble ratio and its not good at all.

I can say Deuce isn\'t a great leader. And, IMO, he\'s not.

I can say lots of things. But, all I\'m worried about is if I think they can do the job next year. All this other stuff is in the past and it\'s nothing that can be done about it. Not that some of it shouldn\'t be considered...

Deuce is lazy?
 

OK....I know for a fact that stephen alexander fumbled a couple of times on the goal line this year...I saw your links but you can\'t tell me that Alexander has never lost a fumble in his career.
I know that\'s what nfl.com posted, but the fact that you bought that shows where you\'re coming from.

What\'s your point? Deuce is the reason this team can\'t get over the hump? That\'s absurd. There were no holes this year. A couple of his fumbles, he got smeared right when the ball got put in his gut.

Alexander has 16 career fumbles/13 lost.
Deuce? 15/11 lost

He had a bad year. He played hurt and he was a horse at the end of the year. If you\'re focusing your negativity on Deuce, then you have no idea what you\'re watching, that\'s all I\'m saying. The OC changed the scheme on him, he got hurt on a play where the OLine just moved out of the way for the defenders.

I\'ve been reading your posts and I\'m startnig to think you just want to get a rise out of people. Should we lose Deuce so AB can flourish? Will Deuce make our Defense better if he\'s not here?

Your stats were wrong dude......

Deuce is lazy?
 

I, for one, have not said anything about him deserving a pass. I have simply argued that Danno was asking too much of him by complaining that he only got 1000 yards instead of 2000 and that his fumbles aren\'t as bad as people were trying to say.

When I made my little remark about crap, I was joking because I thought we were arguing on the same side about Deuce and that stat doesn\'t exactly scream how good he is. Sorry you took it the wrong way. Now I\'m trying to figure out if you\'re just messing with me or pulling a moderator power trip.

Deuce is lazy?
 

Moderator power trip? No, just asking you to check the attitude at the door, that\'s all. You made the comment man, not me. I think we should just move on.

Deuce is lazy?
 

I\'ve got a suggestion for a moderator power trip::

Lock this sucker or delete it. It is stupid and needs to die. I vote for deletion, myself. We have a lot more sensible things to discuss than this.

Deuce is lazy?
 

And one more thing folks..

Some of you say I \"stir the pot\".

I may be stirring the pot, but at the same time, some of you are trying to force-feed me something out of you\'re own little pot. And it don\'t taste very good either... ;)

So, while some of you are trying to force-feed me your Brooks\' stew, all I\'m doing is stating some FACTS.

Some of you think I\'m \"stirring the pot\" when I say:

1. Peyton Manning gets his team sent home every year because he throws a TON of Ints in the playoffs.

2. Delhomme couldn\'t win more than 7 games because he didn\'t get any help from his teammates.

3. Deuce has a bad TD/fumble raito.

4. There\'s no clear cut case that says we should cut Brooks.

Exactly which of these aren\'t facts? I\'m confused.

Is it that I\'m \"stirring the pot\"....

Or, some of these are your favorite players and you don\'t like hearing the FACTS?

I never said any of your favorite players should be cut.

Just giving ya the facts...

That\'s all.......... :D

Deuce is lazy?
 

Career turnovers. Deuce verses AB.

Deuce- 2001 1 fumble 0 lost
2002 4 fumbles 3 lost
2003 6 fumbles 4 lost
2004 5 fumbles 4 lost
Total 16 fumbles 11 lost

AB- 2000 6 INTs 4 fumbles 1 lost
2001 22 INTs 13 fumbles 2 lost
2002 15 Ints 11 fumbles 5 lost
2003 8 INTs 14 fumbles 11 lost
2004 16 INTs 13 fumbles 2 lost
Total 67 INts 55 fumbles 21 lost

Explain to me why Deuce is the bigger problem PLEASE ANYONE.

Deuce is lazy?
 

As has been stated before, Brooks touches the ball on EVERY play, so it would stand to reason that he\'d have more fumbles, right? What\'s the ratio of the number of times each player touched the ball versus the number of times each has fumbled? Wouldn\'t that be a true comparison? I think if you compared the number of touches to the number of fumbles you might see it differently.

Also, you\'re including INT\'s too, wich isn\'t what I\'d consider a fair comparison since Deuce doesn\'t throw passes, plus, some of those INT\'s aren\'t Brooks\' fault, unless we can blame him for tipped balls and guys running the wrong routes.

Then again, this thread is about Deuce, right?

Deuce is lazy?
 

Even if you take that into account, he has fumbled WAY more and lost more. I don\'t care how many times he touches the ball. Seems to me that only makes the point stronger. Since he DOES touch the ball so much, WHY would I want someone so fumble prone handling it? And I am glad we agree Deuce does not touch the ball as much so the bigger problem is obviously the guy who touches the ball more right? And if he can\'t handle it, he needs to go. That is very much agreed upon. So let\'s also say we cut the INTS in HALF because we wanna blame outside factors, that is still 54 TURNOVERS to Deuce\'s 11. That is almost 5 to 1, AND THAT IS CUTTING THE INTS IN HALF considering no way half of those were tipped and whatever other excuses there were. So that didn\'t do it. Someone else explain to me how Deuce is the bigger problem please.

Deuce is lazy?
 

First, saintwhodi. I want to aplogize for some things that I might have said in the past.

I\'ve read a lot of your posts, and, while I don\'t agree with some of them, you seem pretty knowledgeable. That is, when you get off the Aaron Brooks subject... ;)

Are we cool?

Now!!

Couple of things here:

1. You used 5 years worth of stats for Brooks and only 3-years worth of stats for Deuce. (you used the 2000 season when Deuce hardly played at all.) That really doesn\'t seem fair to me. Not when you total all them up.

Maybe if you woud have factored in 2 more years for Deuce on an average of what he\'s done over his first 3 years as a starter..

Let\'s wipe out two years for Brooks just to be fair? Fair?

I\'ll take out 2000 and 2004. That\'s 2 of Brooks better years for turnovers...

Brooks:
2001 22 INTs 13 fumbles 2 lost
2002 15 Ints 11 fumbles 5 lost
2003 8 INTs 14 fumbles 11 lost

Total Int: 45 Total fumbles lost: 18 Grand Total: 63

Deuce-
2002 4 fumbles 3 lost
2003 6 fumbles 4 lost
2004 5 fumbles 4 lost
Total 16 fumbles 11 lost

Now we\'ve got 3 years with both of them starting. That seems much fairer to me??

Brooks - 18 fumbles lost
Deuce- 11 fumbles lost

As far as factoring in AB\'s interceptions. That\'s hard to do when Deuce never throws the ball.

IMO, Brooks interception ratio is one of the best in the league when comparing other QBs. Not the best, but not bad. I think you also have to take into consideration that a lot of those ints were in his 1st and 2nd year as a starter...

I understand you want Brooks gone. That\'s cool. But this is just my way of looking at it.

I could be wrong.

Deuce is lazy?
 

I don\'t think the AB touches the ball everytime thing helps him.

Half the time (assuning an even run/pass ratio) AB only has to hand the ball off. He\'s not risking much in getting hit and doesn\'t have possession of the ball very long. However, the RB is going to take a hit and may have possesion much longer.

The other half - passes - AB isn\'t supposed to get hit either. The point of the play for him is to get rid of the ball - and not by giving it to the other team. He\'s got options that a RB wouldn\'t have (such as throwing the ball away).

For the QB to be out-fumbling our apparent bumbling, stumbling, fumbling RB is not a good thing. I\'m looking at 21 lost fumbles for AB and 11 for Deuce. INTs aren\'t included. Shouldn\'t happen.

Anybody except Gumbo wanna look up stats on other QB-RB combos in regards to fumbling? (j/k Billy) ;)

Deuce is lazy?
 

Well I am impressed that it lasted 4 pages.

Deuce is lazy?
 

Did a little research for you saintfan. It was surprising. I added all AB\'s pass attempts, plus his rushing attempt plus all Deuce\'s rushing attempts Stecker\'s, Karney\'s, Terrelle Smith\'s and the games Ricky(even the ones Blake handed to him) was here to get an aggregate number of touches for AB since he handed off to Deuce and the others. Gave me a crude number of 4197 total touches for his career with 88 TURNOVERS. Came to a turnover per every 47.69 touches. Then I took Deuce\'s rushign attempts, receptions, punt and kick returns and added them up, total 1179 touches for his career, 11 turnovers. Comes to a turnover every 107.17 touches. So AB turns the ball over at a rate MORE THAN TWICE DEUCE. Tell me again how Deuce is the bigger problem since you said that would be more accurate.

[Edited on 2/2/2005 by saintswhodi]

Deuce is lazy?
 

Thanks to Halo Gumbo, I wanna squash the beef so no prob. Also, I agree with Scotty here, a QB may touch theball more, buthe has FAR more options of gettign rid of the ball and can not take the hits a RB can with the new rules, especially in the pocket. SO you have to factor INTs. I did another little project for saintfan since he asked for it. Thought I was more than fair too. Years doesn\'t matter since it was a per touch research project. Tell me what you think.

Deuce is lazy?
 

:yourock:

Deuce is lazy?
 

saintwhodi --

I was going on the total TD and int post you made when comparing Brooks and Deuce.

After I made my post, I read your new posts about: touches/turnovers.

While I do think that\'s more fair, I\'m not convinced we are putting up the most compelling arguement that we could.

Let me say this, first: whodi, I do agree with you that Brooks has turned the ball over too many times and it\'s really hurt us at times. Especially the year Brooks made all those \"mystery\" fumbles. He gets no free pass from me on those...


In the interest of \"fairness\", I want to compare Brooks\' TD/turnovers to some QB\'s in the NFL rather than Deuce.

Comparing Deuce to ANY QB does an injustice to both, IMO.

Anyway, I\'m going to try and be unbiased here. Really, I am..

Donte Culpepper
1st year: 33TD - 16Ints-
2nd year: 14TD - 13Ints
3rd year: 25TD - 11Ints
4th year: 39TD - 11Ints
Total TD - 111 Total Ints - 51
TD/Int ratio: 2.1

Trent Green as a Chief
1st year: 17TD - 24Ints
2nd year: 26TD - 13Ints
3rd year: 24TD - 12Ints
4th year: 27TD - 17Ints.
Total TD - 94 Total Ints - 66Ints
TD/Int ratio:1.4

Aaron Brooks
1st year: 26TD - 22Ints
2nd year: 27Td - 15Ints
3rd year: 24TD - 8Ints
4th year: 21TD - 16Ints
Total TD - 98 Total Ints - 61
TD/Int ratio:1.6

Brett Favre
1st year: 18TD - 13Ints
2nd year: 19TD - 24Ints
3rd year: 33TD - 14Ints
4th year: 38TD - 13Ints
Total TD: 108 - 64Ints
TD/Int ratio: 1.6

Donovan McNabb
1st year: 21TD - 13Ints
2nd year: 25TD - 12Ints
3rd year: 17TD - 6Ints
4th year: 16TD - 11Ints
Total TD - 79TD - 42Ints
TD/Int ratio: 1.8

Tom Brady
1st year: 18TD - 12Ints
2nd year: 28TD - 14Ints
3rd year: 23TD - 12Ints
4th year: 28TD - 14Ints
Total TD - 97 - 52Ints
TD/Int ratio: 1.8

Trent Green: TD/Int ratio:1.4
Brett Favre: TD/Int ratio: 1.6
Aaron Brooks: TD/Int ratio: 1.6
Tom Brady: TD/Int ratio: 1.8
Donavan McNabb: TD/Int ratio: 1.8
Donte\' Culpper: TD/Int ratio: 2.1

I took QBs stats from the first 4-years as a starter.


I think TD/int ratios is a good indicator of making the correct decisions in the passing game. It\'s not the \"tell-all\", but, to me, that\'s the most important stat for a QB.

I think this shows Brooks is right there with the best of them in this regard.

Now, NFL.com has the fumbles screwed up for the players. So, I can\'t get them.

Brooks is up there in fumbles when compared to other QBs. I know that. Though I\'m not sure how he would compare to these same QBs. I\'d like to know?

There\'s much more to evaluating a QB than what I\'ve done here.

Such as:

1. The fumbles need to be compared.
2. Completion percentage needs to be compared.

But, there are so many other things that must be considered taht stats will never show.

Such as:

1. How many times is the quarterback under pressure? It makes a big difference.
2. How many times does the QB avoid a sack?
3. What\'s the completion percentage on 3rd down? That\'s huge.

While I can understand your frustration with Brooks. The fumbles, the stupid comments to the media, the stupid plays, etc, ect....

But, surly you can understand that there are folks who think Brooks has done enough to be our QB. Heck, just look at the TD/int raito I listed. It\'s very good. One of the top in the NFL.

And I hope you understand that some of us think Brooks has had problems that were out of his control that has affected his play. It seems it\'s always something wrong with this team every year. The offensive line is bad one year. Brooks has a fumbling problem one year. Deuce is injured one year.

The only constant is that our defense has sucked every year.

I\'m not excusing Brooks. Not at all. And I may very well be wrong about Brooks.

Okay, I\'m tired. This post is getting too long..

Deuce is lazy?
 

Ya know what Gumbo? I appreciate the work you did to compile those stats. The reason I posted as I did for Deuce was cause saintsfan said:

So as to make it as fair as possibly, I did TURNOVERS per touch, cause giving AB a pass on the INTs when, like Scotty said, he has WAY more options to get rid of the ball than a RB just isn\'t fair. But again I appreciate your work.

Now let me get into it a little. For 4 years now AB\'s receivers and RB have put McNabb\'s to shame. Same with Culpepper since Horn makes the pro bowl just like Moss and we have a better RB. Brady\'s receivers are more consistent than ours,but they didn\'t get Dillon until this year. Green\'s receivers pale in comparison to ours, but Priest is a hoss. and when he was with the Redskins, that was just crap and since you took his first 4 years, that was those right? I also don\'t think the actual fumble NUMBERS on NFL.com are wrong, just some of the totals are jacked. You basically have to add them yourself to check, but the actual numbers are correct.

But you are right, there is more in evaluating a QB. My question was though in relation to this thread, I am trying to find out why anyone is seeing Deuce as a bigger problem than AB. It just baffles me. I have my man Danno who scowled at me several times for continually discussing AB when he felt we had bigger problems, and he rails Deuce. I don\'t understand. But in the spirit of fairness, if I feel free to rail AB, anyone else is free to lay into Deuce. I just don\'t understand, but that\'s nobody\'s fault but my own. Carry on fellas. Sorry I interrupted./

Deuce is lazy?
 

So as to ensure we\'re all working with the same data, I lifted the above from th Saints website. I assume that it is accurate.


LEON
Passing
Year G GS Att Comp Pct Yards YPA TD Int S/YL Rate
2000 8 5 194 113 58.2 1514 7.80 9 6 15/94 85.7
2001 16 16 558 312 55.9 3832 6.87 26 22 50/330 76.4
2002 16 16 528 283 53.6 3572 6.77 27 15 36/236 80.1
2003 16 16 518 306 59.1 3546 6.85 24 8 34/195 88.8
2004 16 16 542 309 57.0 3810 7.03 21 16 41/223 79.5
TTL 72 69 2340 1323 56.5 16274 6.95 107 67 176/1078 81.5

Rushing
Year G GS Att Yards TD FD Fum/L
2000 8 5 41 170 2 14 4/1
2001 16 16 80 358 1 24 13/2
2002 16 16 62 253 2 21 11/5
2003 16 16 54 175 2 20 14/11
2004 16 16 58 173 4 14 13/2
TTL 72 69 295 1129 11 93 55/19

DEUCE
Year G GS Att Yards TD FD Fum/L
2001 16 4 16 91 1 4 1/0
2002 15 15 325 1388 13 65 4/3
2003 16 16 351 1641 8 69 6/4
2004 14 14 269 1074 9 53 5/4
TTL 61 49 961 4194 31 191 16/11

Receiving
Year G GS No Yards FD
2001 16 4 15 166 8
2002 15 15 47 352 15
2003 16 16 69 516 22
2004 14 14 34 228 5
TTL 61 49 165 1262 50


I\'ve now included the \"Top 5\" in the NFL for comparison on this turnover issue (2000-2004). My analysis: Find LEON a new color jersey and we better hope that Deuce just gets a little better, because the stats don\'t paint LEON in a favorable light. This should end debate as to whether Deuce is more of a liability than LEON.

As for League comparisons, LEON\'s got to have a hall of fame year if he stays just to compensate for his last five years. He\'s not close on any measure, and toward the bottom middle on most every fundamental statistic. Including W/L. D.McNabb has had FAR fewer weapons over the last 5 years than has LEON and his T% is remarkable. That\'s not due to the defense. It\'s due to good decision-making.

All Deuce has to do is fumble 1 fewer time per year, and he\'s among the best in the league per touch. I seem to remember one fumble was on his injury play, and another was where Kearny missed his block and Deuce got hit as he took the handoff. Deuce clearly has had fewer touches, but that\'s because he\'s got one fewer full year of statistics.


Touches Turnovers %
LEON 2811 86 3.06
Tom Brady 2311 63 2.73
P Manning 3074 80 2.60
D McNabb 2898 58 2.00
D Culpep 3018 87 2.88
B Farve 2891 79 2.73

DEUCE 1126 11 0.98
E James 1709 18 1.05
L Tomlinson 1654 8 0.48
C Martin 1859 15 0.80
A Green 1749 21 1.20
S Alexander1520 13 0.86

Deuce is lazy?
 

Deuce McAllister:

73 yards behind George Rogers for first on the Saints\' career rushing yards

Has the second and third ranked highest single season totals for rushing yards in Saints History. (His highest total trailed George Rogers highest total by a mere 33 yards.)

Has the third highest single game rushing total in Saints History.

Has the most career 100 yard games in Saints History

Tied for 1st (George Rogers) with most 100 yard games in a single season in Saints History. He also occupies 2nd place on this list.

2nd all-time career rushing attempts in Saints History

2nd in single season rushing attempts in Saints History

2nd in career TDs in Saints History

Tied for 1st (George Rogers) in single season TD total in Saints History

Tied for first in single game TDs (3) with the likes of Rogers, Manning & Williams, among others. BTW, he did it twice.

Tied for 2nd - longest scoring run (76)

Deuce is lazy?
 

Ok, someone may have said this, since I was only able to bring myself to read the last page: I like the idea of turnovers per touch, that was interesting.

However, turnovers per touch is an odd measure when comparing guys in completely different circumstances. Someone noted that the RB gets hit nearly every play, so this should make him more likely to fumble.

I want to disagree with that. First, RBs are expecting to get hit and thus protecting the ball on most plays - this seriously decreases their chance of fumbling. QBs are frequently hit in passing motions rather than tucked in, QBs are looking for WRs (rather than who is going to hit them), QBs are hit from behind far more often than RBs (which opens them to strips as well as being in a more open passing position), RBs are playing a fairly linear game and looking at the on coming tacklers and tacklers are moving in linear patterns toward them (QBs in the pocket are suceptible to defenders coming from odd angles as they disengage blocks), and so on.

It seems to me that QBs ought to fumble more often per touch than RBs. It would be interesting to see what the relative difference is on average (but I\'m sure as heck not going to do it).

This is not a point about Duece or AB, it is merely about the likelihood of a fumble on any given touch.

Again, if this point has been made, please ignore me.

Deuce is lazy?
 

That point was touched upon Kool, but it\'s not really fair either. Once Deuce gets the ball, does he have the option to slide, throw it out of bounds, throw it downfield, kneel? No. These are all options available to a QB with the ball in his hands. If Deuce were to do any of these, he would be cut the next week. SO to ONLY compare a RBs fumbles to a QBs overall turnovers is unfair to the RB cause there is only one thing he can really do once he gets the ball, find someone and hit them. Also, if a QB gives a bad handoff to the RB or the RB is hit as he is getting the ball and it\'s fumbled, that fumble goes on the RB. Now that\'s not really fair either. Turnovers per touch was the only fair way I could see to do it, and I even added every handoff to every Saints RB since AB has been here and even included the 11 games Blake was handing off to Ricky. I think I was more than fair with AB.

Deuce is lazy?
 

saintwhodi --

All of these things that are being compared with stats are very interesting. I\'m a stat guy.. :D

I believe stats are VERY important. I also think that\'s why stats are kept for all players. Coaches use \'em. GMs use \'em. And its foolish not to use \'em, IMO.

But, as we all know, stats are not the \"tell-all\".

And I\'d just like to say, though your touch/turnover comparison between Deuce and Brooks was interesting, and I understand WHY you made the comparison (to prove a point to saintfan) ... I just DO NOT think its very useful to EVALUATE a quarterback by comparing him to a RB. Now matter who\'s the QB and the RB.

I think the only fair comparison is to take all the important stats for several QBs and do a side-by-side comparison.

I did a side-by-side comparison for Brooks and several of the top QBs in the NFL for TD to interception raito. Which I believe is one of the more important stats for a QB. And Brooks ranks right up there in that aspect.

However, I did NOT include fumbles. Mainly, because I can\'t find a good source to get \'em. I\'m guessing Brooks ranks bad in this regard. So, that\'s one strike against Brooks when compared to the better QBs in the NFL.

Then you have completion percentage. Brooks hasn\'t completed 60% yet. Although, he did complete 59.8% last year. But overall, thoughout his 4 year career, Brooks isn\'t up there with the better QBs in the NFL. But, he was improving up unitl this year.

So.........as far as stats go, I think the big things are his fumbling and his completion percentage. All of his other stats are great when compared to other QBs.

But, completion percentage and fumbling isn\'t all on the QB. The receivers have a lot to do with completion percentage. And I think our receivers have affected Brooks\' completion percentage some. But some of it is on Brooks because I don\'t think Brooks is the most accurate passer when it comes to throwing those intermediate passes. He misses more than he should at times.

And QBs who scramble a lot generally always have more fumbles than a pocket passer. There\'s a trade-off you get with mobile QBs, though. They generally get sacked for greater losses and have more fumbles. BUT.........they also avoid a lot of sacks than other less nimble QBs and make plays that wouldn\'t otherwise be made.

Then the offensive line can greatly effect ALL STATS for a QB.

In my mind, Brooks has done some things that has left me scratching my heads at times. But, he\'s done a lot of good and seems to be improving to me.

That was..........up until this year. But, it\'s hard for me to guage too much about Brooks this year because of the offensive line.

Same for Deuce. The line effected his play also. I can\'t put it all on Deuce or Brooks this year because of the offensive line.

Deuce is lazy?
 

You kids play nice now. i\'m the only moderator with a power trip! :rollinglaugh: Unless you count BnB. :P :bandg: