A debate challenge

GumboBC · 02-08-2005, 01:14 PM

4saintspirit --

Look, I understand that by making certain topics off limits that you don\'t get to consider everything.

Venturi is still here and we know he\'s not a great DC.

Haslett has made mistakes in the past and he might make them again.

Brooks has made some mistakes and he might do it again.

I understand ALL of that.

But, there\'s more to discuss than the \"usual\" things that are pointed out.

I could care less whether someone is optimistic or pessimistic.

I\'m not very optimisic at this point myself.

I just put up an optimistic view and wanted some insight on something more than the same thing I\'ve already heard.

Haslett, Brooks, and Venturi...........I\'ve heard all of those. I\'d like to hear something else.

I\'m not saying those aren\'t valid points of criticism. I\'m just saying I\'d like to hear some other reasons as to why we won\'t get over the hump.

I suppose I did a poor job of explaining the purpose of this thread. Hopefully, I did a better job this time?

shadowdrinker · 02-08-2005, 01:43 PM

The Offense has never been the question to me,

We have, for the past few years, enjoyed arguably..the best , most complete Offense this team has EVER had....I don\'t have to argue it..or post a link...it\'s just a fact...

On the other hand...The Defense has been the weakest we have ever had to endure..and possibly..one of the most ineffective Defenses of all time...The one consistent through out the years has been...Haslett, Venturi, and Mccarthy...

Now... I have to question the firing, or whatever happened to Mccarthy...MAYBE if we had some super big time hotshot kinda guy all lined up , ready to come in and take over..but...They had noone...and damn sure noone better than Mccarthy...once again..I don\'t have to argue it..the numbers speak for themselves...

The thing that really baffles me is...I don\'t understand why they would promote the underlings of people they thought weren\'t good enough to begin with...and then...to not hire anyone to fill the vacancies left by the one\'s who got the promotion...really makes me wonder why these guys were ever here to begin with.....

Now...it appears to me that Benson is playing GM...and thus far...all his moves have been real head scratchers...unless..like me...you adhere to the obvious...I think the owner is downsizing in anticipation of a possible huge payday in the very near future..

It\'s hard to suceed at the game..when your playing for the heck of it...there\'s no common goal...there\'s no stability...what I mean is...if you came to win..you came to the wrong team and players are starting to see it...so are coaches...namely assistant coaches....they\'re just here to fill some seats...and put it on cruise till the day to sell comes....

I refuse to believe that noone else sees that....

baronm · 02-08-2005, 01:49 PM

no I see it..benson is a major problem for this team.

what I don\'t get is why we didn\'t go to the college ranks and get a hot shot OC/teacher???

I also don\'t understand with hasllett and venturi why this d is so bad other than players and lack of a scheme. I mean anyone can run on us...and that isn\'t good.

[Edited on 8/2/2005 by baronm]

shadowdrinker · 02-08-2005, 02:02 PM

no I see it..benson is a major problem for this team.

what I don\'t get is why we didn\'t go to the college ranks and get a hot shot OC/teacher???

I also don\'t understand with hasllett and venturi why this d is so bad other than players and lack of a scheme. I mean anyone can run on us...and that isn\'t good.

[Edited on 8/2/2005 by baronm]

It\'s all the ripple effects of downsizing the team...

This year in particular..Benson has aggresively and blatantly shredded the Coaching staff from the inside out...

And..it may seem ridiculous to some...as to why on Earth an Owner would sabatoge his own team...but...let me say this...

Either way..Benson wins....the more this team losses..the more of a stranglehold he has on the State...If he can\'t fill the seats...he will have his argument of poverty all wrapped up in a pretty little package...and it will be undeniable...

On the other hand...if somehow..some way..this team manages to win...he will have a great looking team to sell to the highest bidder....

Whenver you have deranged motives, you have deranged results...this team suffers from a deranged Owner...

baronm · 02-08-2005, 02:04 PM

kinda like the clippers in the nba, huh.

4saintspirit · 02-08-2005, 03:01 PM

Okay Gumbo -- I see your point -- however I have to question if its a matter of talent, lack of talent, poor drafting, etc. It seems to me to be all on the coaches heads --- We have all of the talent in the world on offense --- good receivers, great running back, a Quarterback who can get the ball to a receiver (despite his faults he can throw the ball), the offensive line should not be as bad as they have played.

4saintspirit · 02-08-2005, 03:05 PM

Continued -- I pressed post reply before I was done -- In any case I am trying to make a point that at what time is it proper to say that the problem is not in the players we have but in the preparation and coaching. Maybe our 5 game turnaround was because they finally were properly prepared. I know we should bring up coaching but I am having difficulty putting the blame on the players ---

Tobias-Reiper · 02-09-2005, 01:12 AM

... something about going into a battle unarmed...

... you cannot make a case for anything by saying things that you \"believe\" are going to happen, and not present any sort of proof to back up our argument...

..it is like a D.A. saying in his opening statement \"The man is guilty. The prosecution rests...\"

... thank you for having me on this thread... bye bye..

GumboBC · 02-09-2005, 09:01 AM

Well....... this went over like a lead balloon.. :P

Folks, if yall want to blame coaching that\'s fine. I\'m inclined to agree that our coaching situation has been one of the problems with this team.

But, simply saying I expect more of the same isn\'t very insightful. It sounds like some of you just have a grudge or you\'re just disinterested in our current coaching staff and have closed your mind to any possibiltiy of improving as long as Haslett is here.

I liken our situation to that of Tampa. The Bucs have really struggled the past 2 years. Stupid penalites, missed assignments, and they just play bad football in general.

Is coaching thier problem? If you listen to some of the Bucs\' players it is. The Bucs players have publicly aired their dirty laundry about Jon Gruden... They say Dungy was the reason for their success and Gruden has destroyed that team.

I suppose Gruden could be the problem. But, I don\'t think they will ever win a thing until they get the right players.

Parcells had one bad season with the Cowboys. Granted, he hasn\'t had 4 sub-par seasons like the Saints. But, I think it shows it takes more than just good coaching to get it done.

I do believe good coaching goes a long way in the NFL. Or in any sport. I do not, however, believe coahcing alone can get it done.

And I don\'t think anyone here believes coaching alone will get it done.

The REAL question is can Haslett win if he gets the right players? I think the answer is YES!!

If someone wants to point to the past and say Haslett is doomed to repeat it ... then ... okay!! I guess that ends that discussion and there\'s not much else to say....

4saintspirit · 02-09-2005, 09:15 AM

I\'m not sure Haslett can win with good players -- I don\'t think we have bad players now - certainly better players than an 8-8 record in a lousy division and conference would suppose. I will ask you this question -- would New England have won those superbowls with Haslett as coach -- no way -- would he have had a winning record -- probably. Fact is a coach cannot consistently win with bad players and a team cannot conistently win with a bad coach.

02-08-2005, 01:14 PM	#11
GumboBC Banned Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 2,616	A debate challenge 4saintspirit -- Look, I understand that by making certain topics off limits that you don\'t get to consider everything. Venturi is still here and we know he\'s not a great DC. Haslett has made mistakes in the past and he might make them again. Brooks has made some mistakes and he might do it again. I understand ALL of that. But, there\'s more to discuss than the \"usual\" things that are pointed out. I could care less whether someone is optimistic or pessimistic. I\'m not very optimisic at this point myself. I just put up an optimistic view and wanted some insight on something more than the same thing I\'ve already heard. Haslett, Brooks, and Venturi...........I\'ve heard all of those. I\'d like to hear something else. I\'m not saying those aren\'t valid points of criticism. I\'m just saying I\'d like to hear some other reasons as to why we won\'t get over the hump. I suppose I did a poor job of explaining the purpose of this thread. Hopefully, I did a better job this time?
GumboBC Banned Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 2,616

02-08-2005, 01:43 PM	#12
shadowdrinker Banned Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 517	A debate challenge The Offense has never been the question to me, We have, for the past few years, enjoyed arguably..the best , most complete Offense this team has EVER had....I don\'t have to argue it..or post a link...it\'s just a fact... On the other hand...The Defense has been the weakest we have ever had to endure..and possibly..one of the most ineffective Defenses of all time...The one consistent through out the years has been...Haslett, Venturi, and Mccarthy... Now... I have to question the firing, or whatever happened to Mccarthy...MAYBE if we had some super big time hotshot kinda guy all lined up , ready to come in and take over..but...They had noone...and damn sure noone better than Mccarthy...once again..I don\'t have to argue it..the numbers speak for themselves... The thing that really baffles me is...I don\'t understand why they would promote the underlings of people they thought weren\'t good enough to begin with...and then...to not hire anyone to fill the vacancies left by the one\'s who got the promotion...really makes me wonder why these guys were ever here to begin with..... Now...it appears to me that Benson is playing GM...and thus far...all his moves have been real head scratchers...unless..like me...you adhere to the obvious...I think the owner is downsizing in anticipation of a possible huge payday in the very near future.. It\'s hard to suceed at the game..when your playing for the heck of it...there\'s no common goal...there\'s no stability...what I mean is...if you came to win..you came to the wrong team and players are starting to see it...so are coaches...namely assistant coaches....they\'re just here to fill some seats...and put it on cruise till the day to sell comes.... I refuse to believe that noone else sees that....
shadowdrinker Banned Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 517

02-08-2005, 01:49 PM	#13
baronm 500th Post Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 954	A debate challenge no I see it..benson is a major problem for this team. what I don\'t get is why we didn\'t go to the college ranks and get a hot shot OC/teacher??? I also don\'t understand with hasllett and venturi why this d is so bad other than players and lack of a scheme. I mean anyone can run on us...and that isn\'t good. [Edited on 8/2/2005 by baronm]
baronm 500th Post Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 954

02-08-2005, 02:02 PM	#14
shadowdrinker Banned Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 517	A debate challenge no I see it..benson is a major problem for this team. what I don\'t get is why we didn\'t go to the college ranks and get a hot shot OC/teacher??? I also don\'t understand with hasllett and venturi why this d is so bad other than players and lack of a scheme. I mean anyone can run on us...and that isn\'t good. [Edited on 8/2/2005 by baronm] It\'s all the ripple effects of downsizing the team... This year in particular..Benson has aggresively and blatantly shredded the Coaching staff from the inside out... And..it may seem ridiculous to some...as to why on Earth an Owner would sabatoge his own team...but...let me say this... Either way..Benson wins....the more this team losses..the more of a stranglehold he has on the State...If he can\'t fill the seats...he will have his argument of poverty all wrapped up in a pretty little package...and it will be undeniable... On the other hand...if somehow..some way..this team manages to win...he will have a great looking team to sell to the highest bidder.... Whenver you have deranged motives, you have deranged results...this team suffers from a deranged Owner...
shadowdrinker Banned Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 517

02-08-2005, 02:04 PM	#15
baronm 500th Post Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 954	A debate challenge kinda like the clippers in the nba, huh.
baronm 500th Post Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 954

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02-08-2005, 03:01 PM	#16
4saintspirit 500th Post Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 690	A debate challenge Okay Gumbo -- I see your point -- however I have to question if its a matter of talent, lack of talent, poor drafting, etc. It seems to me to be all on the coaches heads --- We have all of the talent in the world on offense --- good receivers, great running back, a Quarterback who can get the ball to a receiver (despite his faults he can throw the ball), the offensive line should not be as bad as they have played.
4saintspirit 500th Post Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 690

02-08-2005, 03:05 PM	#17
4saintspirit 500th Post Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 690	A debate challenge Continued -- I pressed post reply before I was done -- In any case I am trying to make a point that at what time is it proper to say that the problem is not in the players we have but in the preparation and coaching. Maybe our 5 game turnaround was because they finally were properly prepared. I know we should bring up coaching but I am having difficulty putting the blame on the players ---
4saintspirit 500th Post Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 690

02-09-2005, 01:12 AM	#18
Tobias-Reiper Merces Letifer Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 4,161	A debate challenge ... something about going into a battle unarmed... ... you cannot make a case for anything by saying things that you \"believe\" are going to happen, and not present any sort of proof to back up our argument... ..it is like a D.A. saying in his opening statement \"The man is guilty. The prosecution rests...\" ... thank you for having me on this thread... bye bye..

02-09-2005, 09:01 AM	#19
GumboBC Banned Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 2,616	A debate challenge Well....... this went over like a lead balloon.. :P Folks, if yall want to blame coaching that\'s fine. I\'m inclined to agree that our coaching situation has been one of the problems with this team. But, simply saying I expect more of the same isn\'t very insightful. It sounds like some of you just have a grudge or you\'re just disinterested in our current coaching staff and have closed your mind to any possibiltiy of improving as long as Haslett is here. I liken our situation to that of Tampa. The Bucs have really struggled the past 2 years. Stupid penalites, missed assignments, and they just play bad football in general. Is coaching thier problem? If you listen to some of the Bucs\' players it is. The Bucs players have publicly aired their dirty laundry about Jon Gruden... They say Dungy was the reason for their success and Gruden has destroyed that team. I suppose Gruden could be the problem. But, I don\'t think they will ever win a thing until they get the right players. Parcells had one bad season with the Cowboys. Granted, he hasn\'t had 4 sub-par seasons like the Saints. But, I think it shows it takes more than just good coaching to get it done. I do believe good coaching goes a long way in the NFL. Or in any sport. I do not, however, believe coahcing alone can get it done. And I don\'t think anyone here believes coaching alone will get it done. The REAL question is can Haslett win if he gets the right players? I think the answer is YES!! If someone wants to point to the past and say Haslett is doomed to repeat it ... then ... okay!! I guess that ends that discussion and there\'s not much else to say....
GumboBC Banned Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 2,616

02-09-2005, 09:15 AM	#20
4saintspirit 500th Post Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 690	A debate challenge I\'m not sure Haslett can win with good players -- I don\'t think we have bad players now - certainly better players than an 8-8 record in a lousy division and conference would suppose. I will ask you this question -- would New England have won those superbowls with Haslett as coach -- no way -- would he have had a winning record -- probably. Fact is a coach cannot consistently win with bad players and a team cannot conistently win with a bad coach.
4saintspirit 500th Post Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 690