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WhoDat --

You\'re getting to be a little ridiculous.

I NEVER said that a player should be paid whatever he wants.

I have CLEARLY stated that there are 2-sides when it comes to player contacts in the NFL.

When I debate something with you, you always like to pull up posts by other members in an attempt to prove you\'re right. Does this make you feel better? I don\'t see where it proves too much.

We were talking about player contracts and how they are negociated. Instead of staying on topic, you want to talk about how many problems Aaron Brooks has.

Here\'s what you said and here\'s what we were talking about, WhoDat:

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Where in there is it talking about Aaron Brooks? Why pull up quotes by other memebers on Aaron Brooks?

You said FOOTBALL players have probably done more to bastardize the term \"businessman\" than any other group on the planet, IMO.

And here\'s how you respond when asked to back that statement up!!

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Quote by WhoDat:
What?!?! Seriously?!?! So you\'re OK with the Saints paying Jonathan Sullivan 1st round money while he sits in the press booth eating, b/c hey, from the player\'s point-of-view he got what he wanted????? That is maybe the worst argument I\'ve ever seen.

Worst arguement you\'ve ever heard? That\'s your arguement, WhoDat. I never said Sully is earing his contract. You\'re being ridiculous. Putting words in my mouth.

Sully isn\'t earning his contract and if he doesn\'t perform this year he should be cut or he needs to take a pay cut.

But isolating one particular player is a very short-sighted view. But, that\'s what I\'ve become to expect from you.

How do you feel about the way Sammy Knight, Le\' Roi Glover, Wilie Roaf and Joe Johnson were done? All very good players. All players produced. Yet, the TEAM felt they weren\'t earning their contracts. In spite of the fact that some of those guys had contrats, the TEAM disrespected them and showed them the door. I believe you\'ve criticized the TEAM for this many times.

Where was your \"look at it from a team stand-point\" view then?

It seesm pretty hypicritical when you defend players like Le\' Roi Glover, Wille Roaf, and Sammy Knight and say they were treated unfairly by the team and then, all of a sudden, you take a totally different stance and say the TEAM needs to look out for the team and the hell with what the players want.

How can you bash the team for not paying Roaf, Joe Johnson, Sammy Knight, and Le\' Roi Glover and then take such a TOTALLY different stance?

Do you know what the word hypicritical means?

Now, pull up some more posts by other members. That\'s all I get from you now days!!

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Haven\'t been on the board in a while. Nice to see some things never change.

Brooks has every right to try and get his money. There is a business aspect to the game that players would be foolish not to address. The window of opportunity for them is very small and they have to take advantage of these opportunities whenever they can. A byproduct of that is negative reaction when that player handles the situation poorly. I think it can be said very fairly that AB sucks when it comes to public relations. Also, when a player denegrates his team in a public forum, such as an interview for a newspaper, and puts himself on a pedestal above his team, to think that people won\'t react negatively to that is crazy.

Now, I\'ve been a Saints fan all of my life. I have to say that Dave friggin Wilson handled himself better with his teammates and the public than AB has. The guy sucks at it!! And if a guy is gonna say that he\'s a top 5 qb in this league, and then doesn\'t back it up, you better damn well expect people are gonna slam him. AB deserves all the criticism he gets. While he isn\'t the only issue that needs to be addressed on this team, HE IS THE QUARTERBACK!!!!!! You want the glory of playing in this league, you better learn to accept the responsibility. THAT is why people seem to like Delhomme so much better. Because when they lose he doesn\'t shirk the responsiblity. He\'s the leader of that team so no matter what\'s fair or unfair, he\'d better be prepared to handle the tough questions and criticism. And he then does just that with self-deprecation and an eagerness to correct the problems.

As for teams not honoring contracts, that\'s why players negotiate guaranteed portions of contracts and signing bonuses. They get a certain amount of money regardless of their performance. But the rest of the money, they had better perform as advertised or their EMPLOYER has the right to tell them to go home.

I hope that AB comes out next year and lights the league up. If he does so, then I think that he will have earned the respect of everyone that bashes him on this board. But he had better start being a leader first, lead by example, demand accountability from himself. The rest of the team will see that, and I guarantee you it will have a domino effect. But, if you look at the entire whole player that is AB, the past results are unacceptable, and if he can\'t or won\'t do what is necessary to be a leader on this team, then I say we start looking in another direction. You\'ve got to remember, every offensive play, 10 guys look directly at the QB. No question he has to lead. If he\'s gonna be talking himself up he better be ready to !@#$ or get off the pot!!

This is the first post I can remember reading from you, but if the future ones are as good as this one, I will be looking forward to them.

OK, JK, ready? Alright...let\'s hit it. 2 bits, 4 bits,...(Inside joke)

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When I debate something with you, you always like to pull up posts by other members in an attempt to prove you\'re right. Does this make you feel better? I don\'t see where it proves too much.

I get it now! Billy\'s sane, it\'s the rest of us that are crazy!

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How do you feel about the way Sammy Knight, Le\' Roi Glover, Wilie Roaf and Joe Johnson were done? All very good players. All players produced. Yet, the TEAM felt they weren\'t earning their contracts. In spite of the fact that some of those guys had contrats, the TEAM disrespected them and showed them the door. I believe you\'ve criticized the TEAM for this many times.

No, I criticized HASLETT for letting Glover go. So has Jim Haslett - I believe he\'s referred to it as his biggest mistake. Roaf left the Saints, not the other way around. So did Joe Johnson. Knight I am still disappointed about, yes - but there\'s not much that can be done about it now.

And PS - you continue to demonstrate and redefine Myopia with every post.

We were talking about contract negociations? Really? You quote this:

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and then you ignore what came after that - ALL of which was specifically aimed at AB. Here, just so you don\'t forget, this is what I said:

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First, football players have probably done more to bastardize the term \"businessman\" than any other group on the planet, IMO. Yes, football is a business, and they are paid for their services. But holding out and whining and crying about more money doesn\'t make you a businessman. Further, there is such a thing as business ethics - something I believe VERY FEW NFL players know a thing about. ...

This year you are pointing at the o-line and Deuce. Last year it was drops and the o-line. The year before it was drops and youth... My point is, you can always point at something else. But EVERY QB IN THE LEAGUE deals with these types of problems. There\'s always something. At some point you simply have to point at the player and ask, \"when are you going to produce?\"

I mean, Kurt Warner is less talented than AB. He had average WRs at best this season, and I think that\'s being generous. His o-line was terrible, and his RB isn\'t as talented as Deuce. Yet, Kurt No-Good Warner got PULLED FROM THE STARTING LINEUP with an 86.5 QB Rating. AB\'s was 79.5 this season.

Tim Rattay was horrible this year, he was 78.1. Michael Vick, who was generally considered as a minimal threat in the passing game - and a guy who has a LONG way to go before he\'s a good QB (not just good runner) - was 78.1. So Vick is nearly as efficient as AB, but with that one little addition - the most explosive player in the league.

I mean, in his 4th year as a starter AB had a 79.5 QB rating. Here are guys who were nominally worse who have lost, or are in danger of losing, their jobs: Joey Harrington, 77.5, Jeff Garcia 76.7, Drew Bledsoe 76.6, Vinny Testeverde 76.4.

Look, I\'m not saying that the o-line, WRs, RBs, etc. didn\'t affect AB this year. Of course they did. But I expect a 6th year Pro with 4.5 years experience as a starter and being paid top 10 money to be able to deal with those things better than AB. You seem to disagree. Fine. But it is hard for me to imagine that the average backup in the league right now couldn\'t come in and put up SIMILAR numbers for a FIFTH of the cost.

Now Billy, here\'s an interesting exercise for you. Which is bigger? The four sentences about contract - which are simply a lead in to a Brooks discussion - or the NOVEL about AB that follows? No wonder you like Brooks so much. You can\'t seem to remember three or four posts in the past, how can you be expected to remember the last four years?

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I get it now! Billy\'s sane, it\'s the rest of us that are crazy!

Clearly.

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When I debate something with you, you always like to pull up posts by other members in an attempt to prove you\'re right. Does this make you feel better? I don\'t see where it proves too much.

Uh, let me try to explain. I know you have a hard time understanding the use of evidence to support your opinion - so this will be tricky for you.

You said:

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You try your level headed best to try and make it sound like a clear-cut case that Brooks should be cut. It\'s not selling. Sure, you might get the Brooks\' basing crew to agree with you. But, none of the unbiased guys on this board agree with you. [/

See Billy, that\'s what we call an unsubstantiated comment. It\'s when you make a statement that has no real basis in reality, but you claim it to be true as a fact. In order to dispute that, I showed you that 18 posters have said basically exactly what I\'ve said in this same thread within the last week. You see, if they are saying the same thing that I am, then unless you feel Saintfan, JoeSam, JKool... pretty much every active poster on the board other than you... is \"biased,\" then I\'ve just disproven your statement that \"none of the unbiased guys on this board agree with you.\" And how do you respond?

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When I debate something with you, you always like to pull up posts by other members in an attempt to prove you\'re right. Does this make you feel better? I don\'t see where it proves too much.

So if you don\'t think that what I say matters, what others on the board say matters (or the media, analysts, coaches, players - who you just as commonly shrug off) - then what matters? Your opinion and nothing else? And then why did you even bring up what other people on this board thought in the first place? I assume you brought it up to discredit me, but when I prove your statements are unfounded you ask why it even matters. Yeah, that\'s really building credibility and exposing my bias to the world. LMAO.

[Edited on 20/2/2005 by WhoDat]

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and then you ignore what came after that - ALL of which was specifically aimed at AB.

You\'re not as ingorant as I thought you were... LMAO!!

This whole thing started out because you were being critical of AB holding out. You then tried to suggest that no players should hold out and even said holding out is an unethical practice.

Did WhoDat really suggest holding out is unethical?

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But holding out and whining and crying about more money doesn\'t make you a businessman. Further, there is such a thing as business ethics - something I believe VERY FEW NFL players know a thing about.

I tried to leave AB out of it (as that\'s usually a wise thing to do) and make my point that owners don\'t hold up their in the bargin at times either.

In response to your claim that I brought other members posts into this conversation. Here\'s where that got started.

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Quote by WhoDat:
This is why people jump on you about Brooks, but leave JKool alone

Your clearly frustrated because I don\'t agree with you. Oh well....

Good try. Maybe next time bud...

But hey, just like your favorite player in the whole of the NFL, I\'m sure you \"owned me in your eyes.\"

Then, everything looks off through the goggles, huh? LOL.

Hey Bill - want to take a vote as to who won this conversation? LOL

Is this still the \"NFC South\" thread?
Talk about ranting..........dang.

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Is this still the \"NFC South\" thread?
Talk about ranting..........dang.

Yeah, and I tried to make it a \"Carney Hater\" thread. Oh well, Brooks gets ALL the attention ... where\'s the rest of my Carney Haters when I need \'em???

:dunce:

I stoped being a Carney supporter after the Jacksonville game 2 years ago........so I too need a kicker change.....

WhoDat, in the 2.5 years I\'ve been a member here I think you have set an official record for the longest post ever, EVER!

I think JKool was the previous champ, and a good one he was, but I truly think you just beotch-slappped that record upside its bulbous head.

I\'ve got a seriously disturbing case of post-envy.
:thumbsup:

I don\'t Danno. That post was pretty long, but me and Whodi have had a couple lately that were pretty derned long...

Who, ya done me proud with the length of that one. I\'m not sure I\'m envious yet, but we\'ll see... I did feel a need to comment after all...

I do aim to please. ;)

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Michael Vick, who was generally considered as a minimal threat in the passing game - and a guy who has a LONG way to go before he\'s a good QB (not just good runner) - was 78.1. So Vick is nearly as efficient as AB, but with that one little addition - the most explosive player in the league.

I was just wondering what would happen to both QBs QB rating if we eliminated from it all rushing stats. It seems to me that Vick boosts his rating by his rushing performance. His rating as a passer should be in the 40s I\'m sure. AB probably wouldn\'t suffer much of a drop off.

I didn\'t think rushing yards affected passer rating... ???

Maybe not. I always just assumed that if a QB scored a rushing TD that would help his rating. I guess it depends on whether it is a \"passer\" rating or a \"QB\" rating. There might not be any difference in reality but the later suggests to me that it would encompass the entirety of a QBs playing while the former seems to be just based on a QBs throwing.

Ok, write it down. I was wrong. It wont happend again and don\'t tell my wife I admitted it. She wouldn\'t believe you anyway.

Here\'s a link to what NFL.com has to say about it:
http://www.nfl.com/news/981202qbrate.html

Well Scotty, what can you expect? You were debating with ME afterall!! LMAO. ;) I won\'t tell your wife.