NFC South
 

How do you guys see us finishing in the division next season?
If you look at the last 3 seasons it's our turn to take the division.
2002 Tampa
2003 Carolina
2004 Atlanta
2005 ?????

NFC South
 

Saints
Atlanta
Tampa
Carolina

NFC South
 

The NFC South is always a tough division. There really aren\'t any easy games.

Here\'s the way I see the division:

1. Atlanta Falcons: With Mike Vick, they have a legit shot of winning any game. But it ain\'t just Vick. Their defense is solid. Their running game is very good. And their special teams are outstanding11

2. Carolina Panthers: The defense will keep them in most games. Their running game is good. Jake Delhomme isn\'t gonna win any games on his own, but he\'s capiable of making some plays. Jake also has TWO probowl receivers. But the Panthers have some concerns. The offensive line is suspect. And Stephen Davis is getting up their in age. And Mushin is gonna want a HUGE contract. It\'s gonna be an interesting offseason for them.

3. New Orleans Saints: Deuce needs to stay healthy and return to form. Donte\' needs to have the breakout year we\'ve been waiting on. Brooks needs to have a solid year. But, the one thing that will help all the skilled-position players is a solid offensive line. If Haz can get the offensive line to play well, it\'ll go a long ways towards fixing most of the probems.

On defense, the secondary looks solid. The pass rush looks strong. And the young linebackers came on strong towards the end of the season. Right now, I\'d have to say the defense might be ahead of the offense.

4. Tampa Bay Bucs: Oh how the mighty have fallen. Just goes to show ya that schemes and coaching only play a small part in the equasion. Wonder how Parcells would do in Tampa? The Bucs have got to get some more talent if they want to compete. The defense will still be solid. But, not dominating. The offense? They aren\'t gonna scare anyone!!

NFC South
 

Come on Gumbo
3RD PLACE?
I think we will be a little better than that.........
I think FireVent is closer to the mark...... :o

NFC South
 

Right now, at this point in time, I can definately say that Atlanta is a better team than us.

And Carolina .... hmmmm .... Do you get the feeling that we\'re going to sweep them? I don\'t.

The only team I think we are better than is the Bucs.

Now, a lot can change between now at the regular season. Until we get that offensive line repaired ... I rank us 3rd!!

NFC South
 

Is this the reverse agenda?
I have to disagree, sort of. He may not win a game by running the ball down the field like Vick. However, there aren\'t many QBs who will. Yeah, he won\'t win many games on his own, but its a team game. However, it\'s his fiery spirit, winning attitude, and never-say-die performance that rubs off on his teammates and makes everybody believe.

NFC South
 

Fair enough but I just don\'t see Atl beating us at all next year.
We almost won the first time (with Vick and Crump) and we beat em the last time.....
Unless Atl gets a serious WR in the offseason we will sweep them and the whole division(maybe split with Carolina).....
just a thought.

NFC South
 

Jake makes some of the most stupid interceptions in the NFL. Tell me you haven\'t noticed Jake just throwing the ball up for grabs.

Jake had as many, OR MORE, total turnovers than Aaron Brooks over the past 2 years. Go check it out. I speak the truth!!

And without that strong defense, all Jake\'s fiery attitude got him was one less win than the dreadful New Orleans\' Saints.

[Edited on 19/2/2005 by GumboBC]

[Edited on 19/2/2005 by GumboBC]

NFC South
 

Billy,

WTF?

Our secondary looks solid? I don\'t know if I\'d say that. Our second CB as of now is going to be a league no namer, no matter who steps in there. Brown was ok, but he got smoked a bunch of times. Thomas might be ok if he remains uninjured, but we all know his limitations. On passing downs, we\'re in trouble in the dime (and maybe even in the nickle).

Want to guess why we used the Cover 3 a lot of the time - Bellamy is getting to old to cover a third WR or even a TE. He\'s great against the running game, but in coverage he\'s been pretty darned mediocre (and even bad at times - a good reason to move him from FS the year before). If he drops off as fast as Ambrose, we have a serious liability here. I\'ll concede that Mitchell may be something, but I have yet to see him under real game conditions. We\'re thread bare at Safety.

Tebucky, IMO, is fine, but people are starting to get me to think his cap number may be a problem. If he goes, the secondary is now MM and who? A big question mark.

Our LBs were strong in comparison to what we started the year with. I\'ll give you Watson and Bockwoldt\'s heart, but a heart isn\'t enough to be a starter. Allen? Blah. We\'ve MAYBE got two guys with any game at all. I guess, I don\'t see that as solid.

Pass rush?! Grant and Smith are good to great, but after that we\'re hurting (well, Whitehead is pretty good too). As long as those guys are reigned in (which will happen a lot when you\'re run D BLOWS), they cannot be as productive. Also, without help in the middle, they will continue to be hindered in production. So, I\'ll give you this one, but we need more strength in the middle, not only to help the run D, but also to help the pass rush on non-obvious passing downs.

The offense? It needs one or two new Tackles and a third WR (since Pathon is probably out). With more pass protection from the line, the TEs could improve (not having to be kept in and/or a chance for Boo to run longer developing patterns against the LBs). With Karney in the backfield we are solid in the running game. Drop the 2TE set and we improve right away.

The defense night be ahead of the offense? I guess it is possible, but I\'m not seeing it yet.

NFC South
 

JKool --

To be perfectly honest with you, I\'m over dreaming about what the offense is capiable of.

They aren\'t capiable of blocking on the offensive line. And that hurts everything else. IF we can fix that, then yeah, I\'ll start to believe. But our pass blocking problems didn\'t just start this year. They\'ve been awful for 2-years. I said it 2 years ago and I said it this past year. And I haven\'t seen anything that\'s been corrected yet. And I\'m still waiting on Donte\'. All I see is Horn, Deuce, and Brooks. And their playing with a terrible offensive line.

On defense, we\'ve got Charles Grant, Darren Howard, Will Smith, and Mike McKenzie. That\'s a lot of talent. Then we\'ve got other players who are very capiable. Like .... Colby Bockwaldt, Tebucky Jones, Brian Young, and Fakir Brown.

Yeah, there are weak spots. But, I truly believe that \"scheming\" has been the big problem. I think Haslett has had enough of Venturi. I really think our defense might be ahead of our offense next year. Yeah, I know it sounds crazy, but I\'m sticking with it... ;)

NFC South
 

:o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o


Brooks\' Number 1 fan is criticizing a QB for stupid mistakes?????

That HAS to be a joke.

NFC South
 

I know it\'s hard to accept that Jake turned the ball over more than Brooks. And I know it\'s hard to accept that Brooks LED the Saints to more wins than Jake LED the Panthers to.

And Brooks did it with the 32nd ranked defense and the 27th ranked running game. And to boot, Brooks knocked Jake and the Panthers out of the playoffs. Well, Delhomme\'s 2 fumbles helped him out some....

NO JOKE!! :o :o :o :o :o

[Edited on 19/2/2005 by GumboBC]

NFC South
 

Billy - do you know what the word myopic means?

\"Jake had as many, OR MORE, total turnovers than Aaron Brooks over the past 2 years.\"

So AB has more wins under his belt and more success than Jake in the last TWO seasons?

Wasn\'t Carolina\'s O-line worse than ours (AB excuse)? Didn\'t Delhomme have a RB who started something like 187th on the depth chart?

But you want to look at one game? OK, Jake\'s record was better than Brooks over the last 8 games of last season. Nanny nanny poo poo. Jakes stats were better in first quarters all season. Hey this is fun - I like it when I get to pick and choose whatever stats I want and not consider all of them.

NFC South
 

Yeah, I know what \"myopic\" means.

Do you know what \"makes no sense\" means?

I\'m talking about QB stats. In other words, I\'m evaluating the QB.

You, on the other hand, are talking about \"wins.\" That\'s a TEAM stat. Want to evaluate QBs on \"wins\"? That\'s gonna automatically knock Peyton out of the top spot. And put McNabb in second place.

You\'ve got to be joking... :o :o :o :o :o

NFC South
 

You\'re absolutely right Billy. Wins are TEAM stats. I just thought I could misapply them as you do to QBs like Delhomme or Manning when you bash them.

But you\'re right, let\'s look at individual stats to compare the two QBs LAST SEASON, shall we?

Jake Delhomme
Yards: 3886
Comp %: 58.2%
Yards per Att: 7.3
TDs: 29
INTs: 15
TD:INT Ratio: 1.9:1
Long: 63
QB Rating: 87.3

Aaron Brooks
Yards: 3810
Comp %: 57%
Yards per Att: 7.0
TDs: 21
INTS: 16
TD:INT Ratio: 1.3:1
Long: 57
QB Rating: 79.5

Wait a minute... I don\'t get it. Jake Delhomme is ahead of Aaron Brooks in EVERY category - whether raw numbers like Yards and TDs, or representative measures like Comp % and QB Rating. Hhhmmmm. But you say AB is a better QB right? And they both had a bad O-line, the Saints rushed for MORE yards than Carolina (Saints 1606, Car 1582), and both had a Pro Bowl WR. I guess it\'s the defense\'s fault AB can\'t complete passes regularly huh? Care to explain your position?

NFC South
 

Jake had a better season than Brooks.

But, Carolina\'s offensive line was better than ours.

Delhomme was sacked 33 times. Brooks was sacked 41 times. Seems odd that a mobile QB is sacked more than a pocket passer. I wonder how many times Jake would have gotten sacked behind our offensive line? And a \"fullback\" was able to rush for over 100-yards in every game behind the Panther\'s offensive line.

But, I\'ll give it to Jake. He had a better statistical season than Brooks. But isn\'t all that matters to you are wins? Isn\'t that always what you preach? Now, you want to use stats? That\'s convinient.... ;)

NFC South
 

Gumbo, I will give you that having a weak O-Line doesn\'t help, however, even with a good line to protect Brooks still has no accuracy. Example: Senoir Bowl week. Each of the top college receivers are competing in a challenge in which several random routes are run. Each WR is paired with a pro quarterback. Unfortunatley for him, Braylon Edwards was pared with AB. Edwards, the top college receiver, got last out of 5 because Aaron through the ball OVER his head on a crossing and post route. How bad does your acccuracy have to be to through a ball over the head of a 6 foot 4 athlete with a 40 inch vertical? Just food for thought.

NFC South
 

No, wins aren\'t all that matter to me when analyzing a position - if you believe that\'s all I care about, then you don\'t understand my opinion at all. I seek to stack up all of the information in full context. For example: stats are important when examining a QB, no doubt. But we agree that they don\'t tell the whole story, right? I think intangibles matter a lot - probably more than anything else at the QB position. Think AB\'s intangibles are better than Jake\'s? Is AB a better leader? More vocal? Does he play with more heart? Is he smarter? I think the answer to all of those questions has to be no, but if anyone can argue it, I\'m sure it\'s you.

Additionally, there are a couple of other factors that I think you have to consider. Talent and potential is an important piece. On the talent front, AB is clearly superior. On the potential front, I think they\'re about even, but if I had to pick I\'d give the edge to Brooks. AB\'s talent makes him attractive, but his inconsistency and intangibles hurt him. Delhomme is unspectacular as an athlete, but his heart and leadership make him play above his station, IMO. Overall - the two about equal out in terms of their play on the field. I also look to two other areas - value and team success. On the value front, there\'s no doubt in my mind that Brooks isn\'t earning his pay and the Delhomme is giving the Panthers their fair share. There are two pieces to that, in my mind. What you expect, and what you get. Delhomme is doing for the Panthers what they wanted when they signed him - he\'s playing a role. Brooks is not the top 5 QB that he demanded he was and that the Saints pay him to be. Finally, the team\'s results do matter. Sometimes, a guy can do everything right, but simply be in the worng place at the wrong time - or be bad for the system - or whatever. In these cases, it\'s not necessarily the QBs fault, but that doesn\'t change the fact that change is needed (see Buffalo as an example). There you have it. Care to explain your position on Brooks and why you think he is the right guy for the Saints?

NFC South
 

He also badly underthrew one to Clayton TAYTAY that Clayton had to come back on his knees and get. This is with no rush, and no outside factors. I made a post about it. After all, we are talking about a guy who has NEVER completed 60% of his passes in any season.

NFC South
 

Thanks for the extra info whodi. I\'m glad that other people also see that the O-Line doesn\'t matter if the QB is a BUM

NFC South
 

Watch out Tay, comments like that will get you labeled. Especially on this board. Welcome though.

NFC South
 

Yeah Tay........watch the Bashing
already a gang of \"haters\" up in here.
Welcome though...... ;)

NFC South
 

My position on Brooks is simple, WhoDat.

In 2003 Brooks had a PRO-BOWL year. He passed for 3546 yards/24TDs/8ints/59.1 comp. %/Passer Rating: 88.8

I don\'t care who you are ... that\'s a great year.

If you want to say Brooks\' fumbles erased all of that. That\'s fine. But, I\'m not ready to throw Brooks off the team for it.

If you want to use this year to throw Brooks off the team, I don\'t see it. He played behind a terrible offensive line, had the 27th ranked rushing attack, and a defense that couldn\'t stop anyone.

To make this short, I don\'t give a crap about Brooks saying he\'s a top 5 QB. He\'s not getting top 5 money. I don\'t expect Brooks to be superman, either. What I want to see is the problems around Brooks fixed and see how he does.

For eveyone talking about how awful McCarthy\'s offense was, none of you ever say it hurt Brooks? How can that be?

I\'m not dumb. I might not be the smartest person in the world, but I know when some folks aren\'t being fair.

I\'m not talking about you. Just to some folks. I\'m not saying you don\'t have some good points. I just don\'t see where they outweigh my points...

NFC South
 

55-59% isn\'t bad either. Bledsoe was a turnover machine. J.P. was drafted in the first round to be the quarterback of the future. Of course Bledsoe needed to be replaced. Why pay this first round x amount of dollars to ride the pine? Why pay Bledsoe x amount of dollars to throw picks or backup J.P.? He was aging and his skills are diminishing which is not the case with AB. I might not like having him as our qb, but he is very serviceable.

I have this feeling AB will have a very good year. I bet that if AB were to lead us to a playoff game, and perhaps even make it to the ProBowl, a lot of people in here will be biting their tongue and hop right back on the AB bandwagon. I\'m pretty sure no one gave Drew Brees a chance when Rivers was drafted... and next thing you know everyone is like LET\'S TRADE FOR BREES... OMGOMG HE\'S SO GOOD.

NFC South
 

I\'m not saying that they necessarily do. Obviously, I believe they do b/c it\'s my opinion. But you\'re just as entitled to yours.

You\'re also right that AB had a good year in 2003. To say that his league leading fumbles were irrelevant is unfair, but that doesn\'t erase his other good numbers. But then, this is why I feel there\'s always something with Brooks. There\'s always a catch - always an \"if\". IF he could just stop throwing off his back foot. If he could stop fumbling. If he could learn to throw with touch. If, if, if....

I mean, it\'s telling that the one year he finally puts it all together throwing the ball, he also leads the league in fumbles.

You may also feel that what AB says is irrelevant. I don\'t care what the guy says, unless it hurts the team. I think he\'s done that.

For example: He held-out and demanded a new contract. OK, fine, he deserved it. Then he claimed to be a top-5 QB in the NFL and demanded a salary equal to that. The Saints gave him one.

In 2001, he finished 19th in QB rating.
In 2002, he finished 20th in QB rating.
In 2003, he finished 8th in QB rating.
In 2004 he finished 19th in QB rating.

So, for starters, I see 2003 as the anomoly, not the norm. Secondly, even if you argue that his contract is no longer top 5, which it isn\'t, it certainly isn\'t 15th or 20th. Bottom line: the Saints aren\'t getting what they pay him for. If you paid good money for a new car that was always breaking down, wouldn\'t you be pissed? I bet you would - that\'s why I can\'t understand why you don\'t demand more of the guy. To you, it seems that saying AB isn\'t earning his keep means you\'re saying that he is the ONE and ONLY problem with the team. He\'s not, and I\'m not suggesting that. The LBs and Ts may be our biggest problem this offseason - does that mean you think we should ignore S or DT? No, of course not. But you do think we should ignore AB. I disagree. We need to find a replacement. I mean, people are complaining about Joe Horn\'s $5 million dollar contract and he\'s been to the Pro Bowl 4 times in 5 years. Brooks makes $6 million a year and he\'s never been selected (though he did show up as an alternate one year). That just seems assinine to me.

NFC South
 

Dam Pappy!
You just struck gold....I feel the same way.......AB should have a breakout year if players rally around him and strive to
redeem themselves(horrible few years)......on that same note..Aaron needs to shut the hell up, stop whining and let his actions speak for him......The bandwagon pulls out in September..
ALLLLLL ABOARDDDDDDD!!!!!

NFC South
 

WhoDat --

I just want to clear a couple of things up...

Why do you hold it against Brooks that he held out? And said he was one of the top QBs in the NFL to get the big money. That\'s exactly what I would have done.

Football is a business, also. On any job, you get what you can get and you do whatever you have to to get it. Regardless of popular opinion... Brooks is no fool. And Brooks certainly isn\'t the first NFL player to hold out and demand the big money. Hell, Joe wants to be paid like Marvion Harrison. All stats aside, Joe is out of his mind, but I damn sure don\'t blame him for trying.

Part 2:

I think this year was the anomoly. Every year Brooks improved in the passing game. Even put up pro-bowl numbers in 2003.

2001- Progressed
2002- Progressed
2003 - Progressed
2004 - Regressed

What happend to the trend? I say it was mainly the offensive line. And Deuce being hurt made us the most predictable offense in the NFL. Pass Pass Pass. Brooks passed the ball more than any other QB in the NFL.

That\'s my take.


[Edited on 19/2/2005 by GumboBC]

NFC South
 

\"I mean, people are complaining about Joe Horn\'s $5 million dollar contract and he\'s been to the Pro Bowl 4 times in 5 years.\"

Name one person that has complained about him making 5 million a year. Certainly not me if you are implying that. As I recall it was about getting a 3-4 million dollar pay raise. Get your facts straight.

Bandwagon doesn\'t start yet chaching. Only if Brooks have a good year then they will be back on his balls. Then everyone will probably deny anything they\'ve ever said about him. I can pretty much see it now... \"I knew he could do it!\"

NFC South
 

Now let me call your attention to another post from Mr. Gumbo.

Well which is it Gumbo? I guess it depends on which argument your trying to win at the time.

NFC South
 

What\'s up, Mr. Dog?

There is a lot of talent on the defense. But, in relation to the the top defenses in the NFL, we\'re about middle of the pack.

What I meant is that we have the talent to play much better on defense, but not enough to be a top 10-defense.

What say you...Dog?

NFC South
 

Alright, it was bound to happen, so I\'ll do it:

What?

At the very least the OLine still has to block for the running game, don\'t they?

NFC South
 

Billy - I\'m going to have to take issue with a couple of things you\'ve said. Let\'s try to keep this civil. I disagree, but I\'m not attacking you...

First, football players have probably done more to bastardize the term \"businessman\" than any other group on the planet, IMO. Yes, football is a business, and they are paid for their services. But holding out and whining and crying about more money doesn\'t make you a businessman. Further, there is such a thing as business ethics - something I believe VERY FEW NFL players know a thing about. So does it piss me off that Brooks keeps calling himself top 5? Yes and no. In part it makes me sad, b/c he is insane to think that. At least with Horn an argument can be made. In any case, I think it demonstrates character. Tom Brady has a much stronger case for holding out for a huge contract, but you don\'t see the guy pounding on his chest do you? I just think it shows what Brooks is made of, and frankly, I\'m not impressed.

But you have a point, trying to get paid regardless of what you\'re really worth is something that a lot of people would do in the situation. That\'s not my point. I don\'t look at it from a standpoint of Aaron Brooks. I look at it from the standpoint of the Saints. I consider myself somewhat of an emotional shareholder in this stupid franchise. If I could buy stock in it, I would. I certainly dedicate far more of my time and emotion to the Saints then most of my other investments. Thus, I measure the team in many instances as if I am a part owner - as if I have some entitlement right. I\'m not saying that\'s the best way to do it, I\'m saying that\'s how I look at it. From the standpoint of the Saints, AB is a bad investment.

Let me use an analogy, if I may, that we have used a lot in the past: a car. AB is like a porsche fuel injection system. Under perfect conditions the system has the ability to seriously boost horsepower, efficiency, and general performance from the car\'s engine. For such a potentially powerful piece of equipment, I can understand why the team would be willing to pay a premium. However, 4 years later, the damn fuel system hasn\'t paid off. Hoses are constantly rupturing and having to be replaced. The intakes get clogged and cause misfires. In general, the car runs real well every so often, but normally it is generally in need of repair and maintenance.

To use the same analogy, the LBs may be flat tires and the OT may be a cracked radiator. If you really want this stupid car to go anywhere, you\'re gonna need to address the tires first. After that, you could move, but the radiator is really going to need to be replaced, or at least sealed and refilled with antifreeze. This fuel injection system may be a large overhaul, and may limit the car less than two flat tires, but it\'s still a problem and it still needs attention.

That\'s how I feel about AB. He\'s a large investment that hasn\'t paid off. It goes back to the same issue on which we always seem to disagree - when is enough enough? We disagreed on Haslett, Brooks, Loomis, Venturi, and others along that vein. You seem willing to keep giving second and third and fourth and fifth chances. I think a lot of coaches and players on this team have had more than enough opportunity to prove themselves and have failed. It\'s time to overhaul the damn car before the few good parts we have remaining all go bad too.

Sure, I want to be paid Marvin Harrison money also. But just like me, JOE HORN IS NOT DEMANDING IT. In fact, Joe Horn has NEVER suggested that he should get paid like Harrison. A sports writer suggested that Joe Horn might possibly be thinking about the idea of considering maybe suggesting to the Saints that he may be in the same general league. If you construe that one little blurb in that article in which Horn never mentioned any WRs name (other than his own), then it\'s fair for me, under the same method of seriously over exagerrating a player\'s actual comments to construe the AB \"I\'m a great QB on an inconsistent team\" to mean that AB really said \"I\'m the best player to ever play for the New Orleans Saints, the rest of the team is worthless and they\'re all bums, and I want Peyton Manning money!\"

Can you show me any reason to believe he progressed in any season other than 2003? Popular opinion (on this board, in the local media, in the national media, amongst analysts, and even supposedly amongst the coaching staff even at times LAST SEASON) was that he hasn\'t progressed very much at all, and not as expected.

This year you are pointing at the o-line and Deuce. Last year it was drops and the o-line. The year before it was drops and youth... My point is, you can always point at something else. But EVERY QB IN THE LEAGUE deals with these types of problems. There\'s always something. At some point you simply have to point at the player and ask, \"when are you going to produce?\"

I mean, Kurt Warner is less talented than AB. He had average WRs at best this season, and I think that\'s being generous. His o-line was terrible, and his RB isn\'t as talented as Deuce. Yet, Kurt No-Good Warner got PULLED FROM THE STARTING LINEUP with an 86.5 QB Rating. AB\'s was 79.5 this season.

Tim Rattay was horrible this year, he was 78.1. Michael Vick, who was generally considered as a minimal threat in the passing game - and a guy who has a LONG way to go before he\'s a good QB (not just good runner) - was 78.1. So Vick is nearly as efficient as AB, but with that one little addition - the most explosive player in the league.

I mean, in his 4th year as a starter AB had a 79.5 QB rating. Here are guys who were nominally worse who have lost, or are in danger of losing, their jobs: Joey Harrington, 77.5, Jeff Garcia 76.7, Drew Bledsoe 76.6, Vinny Testeverde 76.4.

Look, I\'m not saying that the o-line, WRs, RBs, etc. didn\'t affect AB this year. Of course they did. But I expect a 6th year Pro with 4.5 years experience as a starter and being paid top 10 money to be able to deal with those things better than AB. You seem to disagree. Fine. But it is hard for me to imagine that the average backup in the league right now couldn\'t come in and put up SIMILAR numbers for a FIFTH of the cost.

NFC South
 

WhoDat --

How can you even suggest such a thing? Given the fact that football organizations reguarly screw the players over every chance they get, if I were a player, I would be looking out for myself and let the team worry about themselves. These contracts aren\'t guaranteed. Teams will cut players if they get injuried, have one poor year, etc., ect,....

Am I suppose to feel sorry for Tom Benson or some other owner? If you don\'t like what Brooks did, you should really dislike Mike McKenzie?!! You remember his situation in Green Bay, right?

Spare me all this stuff about looking at the situation from an owner\'s point of view. Brooks\' salary hasn\'t hindered our cap number one bit. In fact, Benson needs to shell out a little more money. Brooks got what he could and whether you or anyone else thinks it\'s too much is irrelevant. I suppose you would have turned the money down if you had been in Brooks\' shoes. Yeah, right!!

I\'m really not interested in what the popular opinion here is. I love it when someone points to an article that agrees with their opinion and somehow that\'s suppose to make them right. Boy, if that\'s the name of the game, I could have ended this arguement long ago. Let\'s keep on track and not get sidel-tracked by some of this stuff.

The question was has Brooks progressed? You\'re a big fan of passer rating. Right?

2001 - 76.4
2002 - 80.1
2003 - 88.8

I call that progression. What do you call it? Yeah, Brooks had ONE bad year in fumbles lost. This year his turnovers were less than Tom Brady who won the super bowl. And even with the fumbles in 2003, his turnovers were less than Jake Delhomme who went to the superbowl


P.S. --

You try your level headed best to try and make it sound like a clear-cut case that Brooks should be cut. It\'s not selling. Sure, you might get the Brooks\' basing crew to agree with you. But, none of the unbiased guys on this board agree with you. They don\'t agree with me either. They can see both sides. So can I. I just think I\'m right and you think you\'re right.

[Edited on 20/2/2005 by GumboBC]

NFC South
 

Damn Who, well done. :thumbsup:

NFC South
 

Yes, his analysis of the NFC south was very well done.
No wait, that was another thread, no wait again, it IS this thread.
Or is this an AB thread, No wait, thats EVERY thread.

Man I could post a topic \"Should we replace John Carney?\"
and by the 3rd reply Gumbo, Whodat and the rest of the AB obsessed posters will be in yet another full blown AB arguement bringing up the EXACT same arguements.

Geeez. I hope they cut him outright just so we can start talking about something else, anything else. I\'m starting to become sick of being a Saints fan.

NFC South
 

I don\'t get it Billy. Do you just get angry and not think? Seriously. By this exact logic, then you shouldn\'t give a rats a$$ whether Joe Horn get Marvin Harrison money, right? You\'re not looking at it from the owner\'s point of view huh? So we could pay Brooks $100 million and it would be OK? Jonathan Sullivan\'s contract doesn\'t bother you?

I seriously don\'t get it. Do you read my posts? I am NOT suggesting that AB be cut. I have clearly and repeatedly said that AB is currently our best option. Because I think the Saints should find a replacement doesn\'t mean I think he should be thrown out on the street tomorrow. I think the Saints need to find a few stud LBs too - does that mean I favor dumping Buckwoldt and Watson ASAP? That\'s just ridiculous. You\'re polarizing again, and I don\'t know if you do it in an attempt to discredit, b/c you don\'t know how to ague any other way, or simply because you cannot comprehend my posts. Look at what I write Bill. Go back and find a post, just one, where I said AB should be cut flat out in the last.... how long, two year? Three? Go ahead.

This is why people jump on you about Brooks, but leave JKool alone. He can say read someone say, \"We need to find a replacement for Brooks\" and respond with, \"Yes, long-term it\'s something that has to be addressed, but I wouldn\'t get rid of him unless we\'re getting some other proven player, and defense is a bigger concern to me right now.\" You respond to the the same comment with, \"Sure! Why don\'t we just go hire some waterboy!?! THat\'s all we need right? AB is the best QB the Saints have ever had and if you can\'t see that you have an agenda!!!!\" Do me a favor - try not to polarize - you\'ll get farther with people.

NFC South
 

WhoDat --

I\'m not attacking you or anything. But, you seem to only look at one side of an issue. You have some good points here and there, but you totally overlook the other side of the arguement...

What about the players side of the arguement? You never even talked about that!!

NFL owners and GMs are looking out for themselves. They really don\'t have the players best interest in mind. The only reason they give a player more money is because the HAVE to!!

Players sign contracts that a team will not honor if a player isn\'t performing the way they think he should. They will cut that player in a New York second!! They don\'t give a damn about honoring that contract.

It\'s \"what have you done for me lately.\"

What\'s fair about that? The player and the team agrees to a contract and the TEAM does NOT honor it. Is that fair, WhoDat? Is that ethical?

So, when a player thinks he isn\'t getting paid enough and holds out - you feel sorry for the TEAM?

Like I said, spare me \"looking at it from a TEAM standpoint.\"

I really don\'t get you, WhoDat. You\'re a bright guy. But, you seem to have a problem looking at the BIG PICTURE.

If it pisses you off so much that a player won\'t honor his contract .. then .. why don\'t you get just as pissed off when the TEAM doesn\'t honor a contact?

Let me spell it out:

1. Players don\'t honor their contracts sometimes.
2. Teams don\'t honor their contracts sometimes.

Who\'s right? Who\'s wrong?

It\'s pretty simple actually. A player must look out for his best interest and the team must look out for their best interest.

If a player feels like he is worth more money and hold out ... the TEAM doesn\'t have to sign him. And if they do, they must feel like he\'s worth it.

And if the team doesn\'t honor a so-called \"guaranteed\" contract, they must feel like he doesn\'t deserve it.

That, WhoDat, is the OTHER SIDE that you NEVER mentioned.







[Edited on 20/2/2005 by GumboBC]

NFC South
 

Actually, now that you mention it, I wouldn\'t be against that.

Guy\'s getting old, leg strength is getting questionable, and he\'s famously botched a clutch kick or two. I dunno how much he\'s costing us, but it might be about time to look toward some fresh blood at kicker. Then again, NFL kickers (especially if expected to kick on turf in a dome) are a dime a dozen, so any journeyman would probably do.

Umm ... am I a \"Carney Hater\" now???

NFC South
 

Haven\'t been on the board in a while. Nice to see some things never change.

Brooks has every right to try and get his money. There is a business aspect to the game that players would be foolish not to address. The window of opportunity for them is very small and they have to take advantage of these opportunities whenever they can. A byproduct of that is negative reaction when that player handles the situation poorly. I think it can be said very fairly that AB sucks when it comes to public relations. Also, when a player denegrates his team in a public forum, such as an interview for a newspaper, and puts himself on a pedestal above his team, to think that people won\'t react negatively to that is crazy.

Now, I\'ve been a Saints fan all of my life. I have to say that Dave friggin Wilson handled himself better with his teammates and the public than AB has. The guy sucks at it!! And if a guy is gonna say that he\'s a top 5 qb in this league, and then doesn\'t back it up, you better damn well expect people are gonna slam him. AB deserves all the criticism he gets. While he isn\'t the only issue that needs to be addressed on this team, HE IS THE QUARTERBACK!!!!!! You want the glory of playing in this league, you better learn to accept the responsibility. THAT is why people seem to like Delhomme so much better. Because when they lose he doesn\'t shirk the responsiblity. He\'s the leader of that team so no matter what\'s fair or unfair, he\'d better be prepared to handle the tough questions and criticism. And he then does just that with self-deprecation and an eagerness to correct the problems.

As for teams not honoring contracts, that\'s why players negotiate guaranteed portions of contracts and signing bonuses. They get a certain amount of money regardless of their performance. But the rest of the money, they had better perform as advertised or their EMPLOYER has the right to tell them to go home.

I hope that AB comes out next year and lights the league up. If he does so, then I think that he will have earned the respect of everyone that bashes him on this board. But he had better start being a leader first, lead by example, demand accountability from himself. The rest of the team will see that, and I guarantee you it will have a domino effect. But, if you look at the entire whole player that is AB, the past results are unacceptable, and if he can\'t or won\'t do what is necessary to be a leader on this team, then I say we start looking in another direction. You\'ve got to remember, every offensive play, 10 guys look directly at the QB. No question he has to lead. If he\'s gonna be talking himself up he better be ready to !@#$ or get off the pot!!

NFC South
 

What?!?! Seriously?!?! So you\'re OK with the Saints paying Jonathan Sullivan 1st round money while he sits in the press booth eating, b/c hey, from the player\'s point-of-view he got what he wanted????? That is maybe the worst argument I\'ve ever seen. If that\'s really how you feel and what you believe, this is pointless. I\'ve thought there was hope, maybe I need to become a Billy Moonshiner too.

:o :o :o

You\'re right Billy, the team is irrelevant, just so long as AB is taken care of. True colors seem to be shining through.

You\'re damn right about that.



Just thought I would disprove this point - not that I think it will sink in.

I didn\'t find quotes from Whoodi, Gator, or BMG - I think it\'s well established that they\'re on my side of the fence. But here are posters I found quotes from in the LAST FEW DAYS that are in line with exactly what I\'ve said in THIS thread.

Papz, ChrisRX, JoeSam, SubGuy, SFIAH, Saintfan (that\'s right - even your biggest ally), JKool, TayTay, Saints_LB, Fan Frenzy, lKelly67, Scotty, Danno, Spkb25, and Baronm.

Again, these are quotes just from the LAST FEW DAYS and if you would like, I\'ll be happy to show you my points from THIS THREAD alone that parallel what each poster has said in the quote.

Papz
ChrisRX

JoeSam
SubGuy
SFIAH
Saintfan
JKool

TayTay
Saints_LB
Fan Frenzy
lKelly67
Scotty

Danno

Spkb25
baronm

Now, can you please show me one guy that agrees with your \"spare me \'looking at it from a TEAM standpoint\'\" sentiment, just so long as the player is taken care of. Just ONE.