bignic26

WhoDat I hate to step up to a moderator when I\'m just a young buck on this board but I\'ve got issues with Horn. I\'m not saying the guy isn\'t a good player, all I\'m saying is that he\'s not a team player or a leader and he\'s on the downside of a great career.

Ask any expert what \'s wrong with the Saints and the first thing out of their mouth will be leadership. As a whole, the team has a sense of laziness. It seems like players go down to The Big Easy and start taking it easy while putting forth as little effort as possible and still get paid millions. Maybe it\'s the water down there. Maybe it\'s the whole N.O. lifestyle. Maybe Haz let\'s the monkeys run the zoo. It could be alot of things, but the main thing is a major lack of leadership.

Just look at the roster and show me the leaders. Horn is supposed to be a wise old vet but he acts like a rookie. Yes he\'s a pro bowler, but what kind of an example does he set for the rest of the team? Brooks? Please, that guy couldn\'t lead the team in a prayer. Deuce? Quiet warrior. No one on the roster right now is respected enough to step up and be a leader. In the near future Will Smith will be the leader of the D because he is a class act and sets a good example on the field and off. He has skills and he doesn\'t have to remind everybody every few minutes about how he\'s the greatest DE in the league. It\'s funny, usually the second year player should learn how to carry himself from the four time pro bowler. In this case Joe could learn alot from Will Smith.

We are the music makers, And we are the dreamers of dreams

WhoDat

Step up all you want. Welcome to the board... now, school\'s in session.

First, I disagree that Horn isn\'t a leader or team player. As BnB brought up in another thread - one of the gutsier games I ever saw from a Saint was the Carolina game two years ago when Horn had two scores including one in which he skied and sold out to go get a bad AB pass and had to be helped off the field. As Whodi mentioned, Horn plays hurt every week. That tells me the guy is placing team over self - possibly hurting his own career for the team.

As far as leadership goes, I\'ll get to that more in a second. However, I challenge you to support your statement that Horn isn\'t a leader, and contradict these two statements:

1) Leadership starts on the field with performance. Lead by example. No Saint has performed better than Joe Horn over the last 5 years.

2) Name a Saints player who is more ra-ra. That might not be leadership per se, but it shows his role - which is to bring the attitude, the swagger to the team.

Absolutely. I\'ve made this same argument time and again. I think it only supports the need to keep guys like Joe Horn. Pro Bowl caliber veterans who are anything but lazy. Who sacrifice their bodies every week and actually back their talk up with great performances game in game out year after year.


I won\'t argue that Joe Horn isn\'t a loud mouth. Maybe he could conduct himself in a more professional manner outside of the lines. But you don\'t go to 4 Pro Bowls in 5 years by being unprofessional when the helmet\'s on.

Leadership is a team-wide problem, I absolutely agree. But to say that is a reason to Joe Horn seems to be nonsensical. Is Moss a better leader? Owens? Horn isn\'t perfect, but it\'s about what you do on the field. All he does is put up Pro Bowl numbers... every... single... year... (except when he suffers injuries mid-year that limit his playing time ).

\"Excuses, excuses, excuses. That’s all anyone ever makes for the New Orleans Saints’ organization.\" - Eric Narcisse


\"Being a Saints fan is almost like being addicted to crack,\" he said.[i]\"You know you should stop, but you just can\'t.\"

LKelley67

the interview transcript-
(highlight mine)
On the Contract Proposals

\"The proposal was embarrassing to me and to Ralph.

So Ralph [Vitolo] sent them a proposal back that wasn’t even equal to what the top four or five guys in the league make and Mickey [Loomis] said it was still too much. My agent said if I were a free agent, I would get what I want.

I’m frustrated with it. All the big guys in the league don’t have these problems with their GM’s. They are taken care of.

I’m willing to say, \"Hey, keep the million dollars and let me see what I’m worth [on the open market]. But they aren’t going to do that. I don’t want them to do that. I want to be a Saint and end my career here. Let me go on the market and see what I’m worth.

Obviously someone up stairs is telling him [Loomis] I’m not worth it unless he’s the big Don Corleone calling all the shots and smoking a cigar. This is ridiculous.

We should be talking about next year and if we’re going to make the Super Bowl not a contract. Mickey should have taken care of this two years ago. My agent told him we’ll be in your face in two years and Mickey said we’d see.\"

On possible hold out

\"With all do respect to Jim Haslett and Mr. Benson, I won’t be anywhere near Airline drive until my deal is done. Not for mini camp, not for training camp. I was so upset I told my agent to tell them to take the 120,000 dollars out my check because I won’t be at camp. With all due respect I’ve done everything I’ve needed to do.

I want to be there but it comes down to getting a deal done. I want to be paid fairly. A lot of fans don’t understand contracts, but the top five receivers\' contracts compared to mine are crazy. We weren’t even asking for that and the Saints still balked.

All I’m saying is I want to be Saint for life and still produce. I don’t want to steal from Mr. Benson. If they don’t feel like I can still do that then let me be a free agent and let me show you what other teams think... Joe Horn can still be a Pro Bowl player.

It’s still possible that the deal gets done and I’m back working with the guys next week trying to win a Super Bowl and really, that’s what I’d rather be doing.\"

On Saints Organization

\"I don’t know if Mr. Benson tells them what to pay us. I think he probably tells them to do their jobs. I know what I’m worth and on Sunday I prove it. It’s up to him if he wants to pay me or not.

We’re only a million and a half apart. My agent has come down, as far I will. Hopefully we can get this done, but until then I’ll be on high school field running routes and with Tom Shaw lifting weights. Until then the ‘Don’ can sit up in his office calling the shots.

I don’t want to stir up [expletive] and piss off the GM but he’s trying to throw it in my face. I’m not going to say any more. I’m going to leave it alone.

Two years ago my agent told them that I was going to play until I was 38 if I want to and I was going to produce. If I’m third receiver than pay me like that one but I’ve been to the Pro Bowl four out of five years I should be paid like one.

No we didn’t go to the playoffs, and I’m mad about that, but I feel like I gave it my all.

I’ve seen this movie before. Here’s the bottom line: I want to be here but they always say let’s see if you’re a Pro Bowl player but that time is now. They could have signed me to a five-year deal two years ago and we wouldn’t be here. They have not lived up to their end.

[Edited on 19/3/2005 by LKelley67]

saintswhodi

WHOA!!!!! I think WhoDat IS Joe Horn. That was eerie. :shockedbig:

bignic26

WhoDat I see what you\'re trying to say but do you see where I\'m coming from? I KNOW Joe Horn is a great WR. I KNOW Joe horn has been to 4 pro bowls in 5 years. I\'m not talking about his skill. Yes, if you wanna talk about leadiing a team with your play on the field, then Joe is a great leader. But IMO leadership has less to do with what you to on the field and has more to do with how you carry yourself everywhere else.

If you say that leadership comes from on field play, then Randy Moss is a great leader of men. Deion Sanders was the best CB ever, was he a leader in the clubhouse? Did rookies and vets alike look to him as a leader? The answer is no.

Leadership doesn\'t come from great on field play. Leadership comes from great people who happen to play sports. A jerk who happens to be a great ball player does not deserve to be a leader.

You say \"Joe plays through pain\", \"He\'s got heart\". That\'s great, he\'s getting paid millions of dollars to play football, the least he can do is play when he can. Today\'s NFL is so upside down. We commend players for playing through pain when it should be expected. Players should play through pain. The only time they shouldn\'t play is if they are INJURED and can\'t physically perform. Like John Abraham for the Jets last year! He could have played but he chose not to. We all know what he is, it\'s starts with a p and ends with a y.

We are the music makers, And we are the dreamers of dreams

spkb25

the guy had 90 catches and i didnt like him shooting off his mouth before. but last year he kept his mouth shut and just played. 90 catches. he plays hurt. he plays hard every week. he had 90 catches did i say that already. he deserves the money. if the team doesnt want to pay him fine. but who else do you have. and the vikings won without moss last year. not as much with him but they were able to get on without him. more importantly then that they traded him for a real nice number one. they will probally pick up a real good wo. maybe williams or edwards. you know im sure we can get play without horn if we have to but why would you want to.

5 years here is his catch totals. 94,83,88,78,94. that comes out to over 87 catches per season on average. im pretty sure the year he had only 78 he was hurt nearly the entire year. he played but wasnt healthy. why would we want to get rid of that?

Your team stinks

JKool

I agree bignic. Players should be expected to do this. However, MANY of them do not. Thus, Joe is to be commended for meeting expectations when so many others don\'t.

I see that we\'ve come back to the leadership debate again. As Who points out, there are two kinds of leadership: (1) lead by example, and (2) lead with rhetorec (empassioned, timely, effective verbal communication. It seems that Joe does both of these, at least some of the time.

I feel like what bignic is talking about is a third kind of leadership. Usually, we call it Integrity. Comportment on and off the field is a good characteristic - I don\'t usually associate it with leadership, but I see how it can be. It is an interesting point.

Joe leads during games, but does he lead \"on and off the field\". I don\'t know. He some times does, some times doesn\'t. I\'m not sure how much \"football value\" integrity has. Certainly not having it hurt guys like Connell. Having it helped guys like Roaf. However, if you\'re in between, like Horn, what should we say about the value of this kind of leadership that I think ought to be called integrity? Interesting question.

"... I was beating them with my eyes the whole game..." - Aaron Brooks

spkb25

i dont here anything bad a bout joe. no rapes or drug problems or wife beating or running over cops or being involved with someone who killed someone. he has been pretty stand up for us. i dont think that anyone knows that joe was sleeping with roafs wife. according to joe he wasnt

WhoDat

You\'re absolutely right bignic. But then, we\'re paying Joe to play football, not be a \"great leader of men.\" If the Saints traded or cut every good football player they had b/c he was a bad leader, then we\'d have no one left. It comes down to production, and Joe produces better than any player on the team. I don\'t know what more you can ask of a player?

spkb25

your right whodat and once again i havent heard anything bad about joe.