Stats, Talent, Intangibles, and the Cap. A Joe Horn view of

WhoDat · 03-24-2005, 05:07 PM

It seems that around BnG these days, everyone's got their own Joe Horn thread, and two stat threads too. Well, I looked around and saw that while I have an abundance of Aaron Brooks threads to call my own, that type of talk is just plain outdated. I find myself behind the curve and in order to catch up, I thought I do what everyone else on this board seems to do - start my own thread not so much as a spin-off or extension of another topic, but really just as a repitition thereof.

How do you evaluate a player when deciding to keep him on a team? We could talk for hours, but I thought I'd just use Joe Horn as a real world example instead.

Stats:
Stats mean nothing. If you looked at the stats, you would think that Horn is a good, maybe even great WR in the league these days. That simply can't be true. He's old and slow and can't catch and can't run after the catch and is just generally poo. Nevermind the fact that stats measure performance - that little thing that all NFL teams pay their players to produce. Not important. Stats can be misleading, and Joe Horn is an example.

Talent:
Talent can also be misleading. Clearly, Joe Horn has none, so he isn't a good example here. A better example might be Ryan Leaf - or closer to home Jonathan Sullivan. Both are guys with tremendous physical gifts but who never made it in the NFL (don't hold your breath for Sully).

First, how do we know that they didn't make it? Well, they have bad stats - but as we've seen, stats are totally irrelevant. So then what? Well neither actually PLAY football, though one is still on a team. That tells you that they suck. So talent does make a guy a good football player either? Well, how can ou tell who is going to be good and who is going to be Ryan Leaf? Must be intangibles.

Intangibles:
Actually, forget that last statement. Leadership is overrated. The ability to inspire, to study film and learn the intricasies of the game, to demonstrate fight and fire and heart - those things don't mean anything either. Have INTANGIBLES gotten Manning to a Super Bowl? Do INTANGIBLES stop Favre from throwing INTS? Two years ago it wasn't INTANGIBLES that got Jake D to the Super Bowl, it was a good running game and a great defense! Duh! There is not such thing as intangibles and even if here were they wouldn't matter you idiots!

The Cap:
Let's face it, in today's NFL, everything comes down to the cap. Teams like the Patriots suceed b/c they can manage the cap. What's that you say? Few teams have managed the cap better than the Saints over the last four years but that hasn't kept the Saints from maintaining mediocrity? Nevermind all that. You're focusing on the wrong things.

In order for a player to be a good signing, he must be valuable to his team. That means that his cap figure must be less than his actual value to the team. How do you determine value? Well, as we've seen, stats, talent, and intangibles are all irrelevant. Age on the other hand, is of the utmost importance. Other than that, it really boils down to whomever I say is best.

If you learn nothing else from this, that's what you need to know. Find the youngest guy you can find - anyone under 15 is a major plus. Don't worry about stats or talent or intangibles. Just listen to what I say and never pay a guy more than a cheeseburger and fries per game. You may however, want to consider never changing the team in a meaningful way. Sure you won't get better, but you won't get worse either. Plus, if you can sell a kidney for an extra second round draft pick that you'll let a GM with zero talent evaluation skills blow on a guy that won't see the field - jump on that deal in a heartbeat. Sure, our heart might be beating a little slowly b/c you just gave up your kidney, but move fast. It doesn't matter that the GM can't evaluate talent - remember talent is worthless. Just like stats and intangibles.

I hope you all enjoyed this and learned a lot.

GumboBC · 03-24-2005, 05:13 PM

WhoDat --

My position on Joe Horn is the same today as it was last month.

I want Joe Horn back and I think he\'s a very good WR.

I do not think he\'s top 5. Maybe somewhere in the 10 to 12 range. But, that\'s just my opinion and the stats do suggest otherwise. But, we all know stats aren\'t everything.

I just think there\'s a lot (10 or so) WRs that are very close to one another and there\'s not much serperation there.

I\'m not into making things up to discredit a players performance. Not Joe Horn, not AB, not Boo Williams, not anybody. I\'m going to call it like I see it and I\'ve said my peace on Joe Horn.

JKool · 03-24-2005, 05:14 PM

Frustrated Who?

Hilarious either way.

Stats aren\'t useless, btw, they can be used to prove anything!

Sign that waterboy from Dallas, I heard he dated Paris...

JKool · 03-24-2005, 05:16 PM

I just think there\'s a lot (10 or so) WRs that are very close to one another and there\'s not much serperation there.

With this I agree.

Danno · 03-24-2005, 05:16 PM

Stats- Joe has good stats
Talent- Joe has talent
Intangibles - Joe\'s got \'em
Cap - If we can reach a reasonable compromise with Joe, it\'ll be a win-win for everyone.

That was easy. Even for a slow typer like myself.

shadowdrinker · 03-24-2005, 05:21 PM

The thing you have to consider is...How much importance do YOU place on a particualr catogorized Stat?

Which is more important..yards..or Td\'s..?..both sides could be argued..but..when you get down to the brass tacks..it comes down to how much value you personally place on yards vs. td\'s..and which one in your mind holds greater purpose...

The Stats are not misleading anyone...it is only misleading when someone places personal value on that particular stat, in favor of one, over another...

The numbers don\'t change, and they don\'t lie..if Horn caught 11 passes for 120 yards and 2 td\'s..he did infact..do just that...

Now, If you say Stallworth was better because he caught 10 passes for 145 yards and 1 td...Then you have just manipulated those numbers to fit your prefernce...because you place personal value on yards over td\'s...

See what I mean?

The stats aren\'t manipulating your views..your views are manipulated by the value YOU place on the numbers..

FrenzyFan · 03-24-2005, 05:26 PM

Stats- Joe has good stats
Talent- Joe has talent
Intangibles - Joe\'s got \'em
Cap - If we can reach a reasonable compromise with Joe, it\'ll be a win-win for everyone.

That was easy. Even for a slow typer like myself.

Agree on all points.

An additional point: based on our receivers\' (other than the aforementioned, talentless, stat-false, old-old-OLD-older-oldiest, intangibleless subject of this thread) seeming inability to improve; without Horn our offense becomes TRULY one dimensional (it\'s not far from that now).

JKool · 03-24-2005, 05:26 PM

Well said Shadow. I agree.

I think the point to be made is that stats alone don\'t decide anything (since they are merely one kind of report of what happened). This is why argument is needed to decide which stats apply, what sub-set of them matter, and the context is provided for understanding the stat (which is an abstract object after all) \'s application to the issue at hand.

Good point.

saintsfan1313 · 03-24-2005, 05:28 PM

The only stats that matter are team stats, most importantly the big ole W. and we dont have many of those for the past 3 years.......

BlackandBlue · 03-24-2005, 05:38 PM

I heard that Horn impregnates his teammates\' wives, then eats the babies upon birth. I heard Horn also created global warming, put dinosaurs into extinction, and helped satan create hell.

And you want this guy on your team???

03-24-2005, 05:07 PM	#1
WhoDat 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 5,631	Stats, Talent, Intangibles, and the Cap. A Joe Horn view of It seems that around BnG these days, everyone's got their own Joe Horn thread, and two stat threads too. Well, I looked around and saw that while I have an abundance of Aaron Brooks threads to call my own, that type of talk is just plain outdated. I find myself behind the curve and in order to catch up, I thought I do what everyone else on this board seems to do - start my own thread not so much as a spin-off or extension of another topic, but really just as a repitition thereof. How do you evaluate a player when deciding to keep him on a team? We could talk for hours, but I thought I'd just use Joe Horn as a real world example instead. Stats: Stats mean nothing. If you looked at the stats, you would think that Horn is a good, maybe even great WR in the league these days. That simply can't be true. He's old and slow and can't catch and can't run after the catch and is just generally poo. Nevermind the fact that stats measure performance - that little thing that all NFL teams pay their players to produce. Not important. Stats can be misleading, and Joe Horn is an example. Talent: Talent can also be misleading. Clearly, Joe Horn has none, so he isn't a good example here. A better example might be Ryan Leaf - or closer to home Jonathan Sullivan. Both are guys with tremendous physical gifts but who never made it in the NFL (don't hold your breath for Sully). First, how do we know that they didn't make it? Well, they have bad stats - but as we've seen, stats are totally irrelevant. So then what? Well neither actually PLAY football, though one is still on a team. That tells you that they suck. So talent does make a guy a good football player either? Well, how can ou tell who is going to be good and who is going to be Ryan Leaf? Must be intangibles. Intangibles: Actually, forget that last statement. Leadership is overrated. The ability to inspire, to study film and learn the intricasies of the game, to demonstrate fight and fire and heart - those things don't mean anything either. Have INTANGIBLES gotten Manning to a Super Bowl? Do INTANGIBLES stop Favre from throwing INTS? Two years ago it wasn't INTANGIBLES that got Jake D to the Super Bowl, it was a good running game and a great defense! Duh! There is not such thing as intangibles and even if here were they wouldn't matter you idiots! The Cap: Let's face it, in today's NFL, everything comes down to the cap. Teams like the Patriots suceed b/c they can manage the cap. What's that you say? Few teams have managed the cap better than the Saints over the last four years but that hasn't kept the Saints from maintaining mediocrity? Nevermind all that. You're focusing on the wrong things. In order for a player to be a good signing, he must be valuable to his team. That means that his cap figure must be less than his actual value to the team. How do you determine value? Well, as we've seen, stats, talent, and intangibles are all irrelevant. Age on the other hand, is of the utmost importance. Other than that, it really boils down to whomever I say is best. If you learn nothing else from this, that's what you need to know. Find the youngest guy you can find - anyone under 15 is a major plus. Don't worry about stats or talent or intangibles. Just listen to what I say and never pay a guy more than a cheeseburger and fries per game. You may however, want to consider never changing the team in a meaningful way. Sure you won't get better, but you won't get worse either. Plus, if you can sell a kidney for an extra second round draft pick that you'll let a GM with zero talent evaluation skills blow on a guy that won't see the field - jump on that deal in a heartbeat. Sure, our heart might be beating a little slowly b/c you just gave up your kidney, but move fast. It doesn't matter that the GM can't evaluate talent - remember talent is worthless. Just like stats and intangibles. I hope you all enjoyed this and learned a lot.
WhoDat 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 5,631

03-24-2005, 05:13 PM	#2
GumboBC Banned Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 2,616	Stats, Talent, Intangibles, and the Cap. A Joe Horn view of WhoDat -- My position on Joe Horn is the same today as it was last month. I want Joe Horn back and I think he\'s a very good WR. I do not think he\'s top 5. Maybe somewhere in the 10 to 12 range. But, that\'s just my opinion and the stats do suggest otherwise. But, we all know stats aren\'t everything. I just think there\'s a lot (10 or so) WRs that are very close to one another and there\'s not much serperation there. I\'m not into making things up to discredit a players performance. Not Joe Horn, not AB, not Boo Williams, not anybody. I\'m going to call it like I see it and I\'ve said my peace on Joe Horn.
GumboBC Banned Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 2,616

03-24-2005, 05:14 PM	#3
JKool 1000 Posts + Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Madison, WI Posts: 2,423	Stats, Talent, Intangibles, and the Cap. A Joe Horn view of Frustrated Who? Hilarious either way. Stats aren\'t useless, btw, they can be used to prove anything! Sign that waterboy from Dallas, I heard he dated Paris...

03-24-2005, 05:16 PM	#4
JKool 1000 Posts + Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Madison, WI Posts: 2,423	Stats, Talent, Intangibles, and the Cap. A Joe Horn view of I just think there\'s a lot (10 or so) WRs that are very close to one another and there\'s not much serperation there. With this I agree.

03-24-2005, 05:16 PM	#5
Danno Truth Addict Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Spanish Fort, AL (via NO and B/R) Posts: 24,720	Stats, Talent, Intangibles, and the Cap. A Joe Horn view of Stats- Joe has good stats Talent- Joe has talent Intangibles - Joe\'s got \'em Cap - If we can reach a reasonable compromise with Joe, it\'ll be a win-win for everyone. That was easy. Even for a slow typer like myself.

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03-24-2005, 05:21 PM	#6
shadowdrinker Banned Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 517	Stats, Talent, Intangibles, and the Cap. A Joe Horn view of The thing you have to consider is...How much importance do YOU place on a particualr catogorized Stat? Which is more important..yards..or Td\'s..?..both sides could be argued..but..when you get down to the brass tacks..it comes down to how much value you personally place on yards vs. td\'s..and which one in your mind holds greater purpose... The Stats are not misleading anyone...it is only misleading when someone places personal value on that particular stat, in favor of one, over another... The numbers don\'t change, and they don\'t lie..if Horn caught 11 passes for 120 yards and 2 td\'s..he did infact..do just that... Now, If you say Stallworth was better because he caught 10 passes for 145 yards and 1 td...Then you have just manipulated those numbers to fit your prefernce...because you place personal value on yards over td\'s... See what I mean? The stats aren\'t manipulating your views..your views are manipulated by the value YOU place on the numbers..
shadowdrinker Banned Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 517

03-24-2005, 05:26 PM	#7
FrenzyFan 100th Post Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 406	Stats, Talent, Intangibles, and the Cap. A Joe Horn view of Stats- Joe has good stats Talent- Joe has talent Intangibles - Joe\'s got \'em Cap - If we can reach a reasonable compromise with Joe, it\'ll be a win-win for everyone. That was easy. Even for a slow typer like myself. Agree on all points. An additional point: based on our receivers\' (other than the aforementioned, talentless, stat-false, old-old-OLD-older-oldiest, intangibleless subject of this thread) seeming inability to improve; without Horn our offense becomes TRULY one dimensional (it\'s not far from that now).
FrenzyFan 100th Post Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 406

03-24-2005, 05:28 PM	#9
saintsfan1313 El Mero Mero Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Kingsville, Tx Posts: 669	Stats, Talent, Intangibles, and the Cap. A Joe Horn view of The only stats that matter are team stats, most importantly the big ole W. and we dont have many of those for the past 3 years.......

03-24-2005, 05:38 PM	#10
BlackandBlue Kinder, gentler Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: dirty south Posts: 3,889	Stats, Talent, Intangibles, and the Cap. A Joe Horn view of I heard that Horn impregnates his teammates\' wives, then eats the babies upon birth. I heard Horn also created global warming, put dinosaurs into extinction, and helped satan create hell. And you want this guy on your team???