Darren Howard MONDAY Buzz
 

Lots of people getting antsy.

from dfw.com. yesterday-

What's the status of the deal for Saints defensive end Darren Howard?

It's not dead, just simmering. But Jones said it is not going anywhere at this time. The Cowboys haven't had a player with double-digit sacks since Tony Tolbert in 1996. The team's four starting defensive linemen had 19.5 sacks in 16 games last season. Howard had 11 sacks in 13 games last season and has 41 sacks the past five years. The Cowboys have yet to agree on compensation with the Saints. And members of the organization are hesitant about the financial commitment it would take to sign Howard, who is seeking a six-year, $34 million contract, including a $16 million bonus. This, however, will be resolved on draft day. Howard wants to join the Cowboys. Let's see who blinks between the Cowboys and Saints.

Darren Howard MONDAY Buzz
 

My guess is a few teams are eyeing Howard. Some may want to address another need in the draft before they pull the trigger on him.
Other teams may pull the trigger after all the DE\'s they wanted are snatched up before they pick.

I think it may end up being a 2006 1st rounder for him. Probably a conditional pick.

Darren Howard MONDAY Buzz
 

That is my guess too Danno.

We all want picks this year, but if we can get a first next year (and maybe a second conditional pick next year or a 3rd this year), I\'d be ok with that.

Without Howard\'s franchise contract on the books, we can give Horn, Bentely, Duece, and McKenzie all raises, and still have enough to sign our rookies (in fact, we can give four of them $1 mil raises this year and sign all our rookies on what Howard\'s contract number is right now).

Here is some food for thought though. We may need to think about unloading one of our big contracts this year, so we won\'t have to worry about the cap hit next year. Here is my preference: sign Sully\'s replacement this year (if we stay at #16, I think we\'ll take a DT) and cut him. This way, we\'ll take the hit this year, but we\'ll have extra space next year. This would avoid the \"talent hemorage\" that may be coming. Second choice, AB restructures or we get a replacement.

Just some thoughts.

Darren Howard MONDAY Buzz
 

JKool --

You want to cut Sully? Why?

IMO, there\'s just too much of a chance Sully will play well this year.

Taking a chance on Sully this year isn\'t going to make or break this team. And it won\'t put us in cap hell next year.

From all the reports I\'ve read, Sully is doing all the right things. He has lost weight and his attitude seems to be much better.

If Sully is the same ol\' Sully then we get rid of him. Not until then though.

My 2 cents.

[Edited on 11/4/2005 by GumboBC]

Darren Howard MONDAY Buzz
 

i thought that each team received an extra amount of cap space to sign their draft class???

as far as im concerned, cut sully. being overweight and lazy, he is playing ball in the wrong city. ill take someone fresh out of college with something to prove and a positive attitude over sully even if sully would play well this year

Darren Howard MONDAY Buzz
 

Well, everyone is entitled to their opinion.

But how can you say you want Sully gone even if he played well this year.

Sounds like it\'s personal with you and that you really don\'t care about the team winning. Why waste a draft pick on a DT when you don\'t have to?

Darren Howard MONDAY Buzz
 

Billy,

My thought was this: if we can resign Horn, Bentley, McKenzie, and McAllister to longer contracts this year (though it is not obvious that a new and better contract for each of these guys would greatly increase our cap number), then we would need some cap room next year.

As I understand it, Sully\'s cap number for next year would be near 3 mil. That is a lot for a guy who hasn\'t really done anything yet. I suppose we could wait until mid-season to cut him (to see if he does improve). Just looking at the roster the way it is now, he is the obvious cap-casualty IMO.

Sure, Sully can\'t play worse than last year, but that isn\'t saying much.

A DT wouldn\'t be a waste of a pick. If Sully shows up, then we\'ve got two studs. If he doesn\'t we have insurance and someone to play with Young. Furthermore, a skilled DT would help keep linemen off our young LBs. Also, since we won\'t get DJ, I\'m ok with LBs that will be available in the 2nd round.

Darren Howard MONDAY Buzz
 

I was onboard with cutting Sully til I looked at his contract numbers - according to nflpa.com. I know his cap hit is higher cuz of the bonus, but his base looks very good. At least until \'08 (maybe \'07). IF (and I mean IF) he can do ANYTHING this season, he\'s probably worth the 500k he\'s going to be paid.

As far trading for an \'06 pick for Howard, the only thing I like about that is the possibility of getting more picks. Since Dallas wont be able to guarantee that even their 1st rounder wont be 32nd overall, we\'d probably get at least one extra pick. Plus, future years draft picks are always seen as less valuable.

I still say we keep him if we can\'t get adequate compensation for him.

Darren Howard MONDAY Buzz
 

So there are now two reasons we hope that defensive ends go high in the draft: Talent at other positions will be there when the Saints pick and a deal for Howard will get done earlier.
Does the New Orleans FO have the nerves for a gamble like that? On the one hand I agree with WhoDat that it wouldn\'t hurt the team if Howard returned for another season, on the other hand I feel that Loomis et al. REALLY feel like they need to trade him.
Let\'s hope they don\'t blink.

Cutting Sullivan? Here are his base salaries: http://www.nflpa.org/Members/playerProfile.asp?ID=34578
Add roughly 1.5 million per year and you get the actual cap number. Even if he doesn\'t pan out, the Saints may have to keep him under contract through 2006 to avoid the cap hit in a year several contracts have to be renewed.
From a cap or financial standpoint you just keep him, from a \"cancer\" standpoint you have to cut him if he flops again this season.
Difficult decision, but they definitely won\'t cut him this year unless he screws up big time before the season.

Darren Howard MONDAY Buzz
 

JKool --

Drafting a DT wouldn\'t be a wasted pick.

But, when\'s the last time you saw a DT make an impact in his rookie season?

Rookie DTs often struggle. Even the great ones.

So, I think a DT wouldn\'t help much this year. And I think we\'d be better served drafting a LB or OT (and I\'m really hoping OT) and signing a DT in free-agency next year.

No one here can tell me Sully doesn\'t have the talent to succeed. That hasn\'t been the problem. If Sully didn\'t have the talent to get it done, then I\'d say goodbye. But sometimes you have to take more chances with guys like Sully, IMHO.

Darren Howard MONDAY Buzz
 

if someone has the precise numbers on sully available please post. cap impact keeping and letting go, now, after june 15, or after the season.

if he can crack the lineup and contribute something it might be better capwise. if he still is a no-show performance-wise it is still X million for nothing whether he is there or not. in the second scenario cutting makes a better statement for who you are as a team also.
-------------------

back to howard...

The Raiders are so hurting to free up additional cap space that they\'ve already had quarterback Kerry Collins restructure his contract twice! Collins understandably is not taking any more calls from the Raiders.

Oakland is still desperate to unload cornerback Charles Woodson, who\'s due to make more than $10 million this season, and, sources tell The Post, the club is willing to take less than the two No. 1 picks required to sign a franchise player.

\"At this point, we\'d probably take a one and a five or a seven,\" one front-office member said. \"We\'re hoping to get something done before camp.\"

(yesterday)http://www.nypost.com/sports/44256.htm

IF n.o. could come to a workable contract with him it seems workable. that is a big IF though. howard has expressed his preference for dallas too and would demand a little more from big al. woodson\'s mo as a trouble making prima donna is a solid negative too. with what they are saying as woodson value then players straight across with oakland giving a 2nd would seem like a decent exchange.

Darren Howard MONDAY Buzz
 

The problem with getting woodson is that he\'s going to want 10 mil. He might take as little as 8, but that\'s a ton when we\'re also going to have to pay MM at least 5, but probably 7 or 8. That\'d make 16 - 18 million on 2 players at cb. Plus, all the other players haven\'t been paid yet.

I\'d rather have PB at less money or preferrably draft picks which are cheaper early on.

Darren Howard MONDAY Buzz
 

First, define succeed. Second, I don\'t think he has the talent to succeed, nor the desire. He doesn\'t want those checks to stop by being cut, so he makes some promises and minimal effort. And how do we know that someone rated as the 5th or 6th best DT in his draft does have the talent to succeed? But what are we looking for? Are we looking for him to be dominant verses the run, or to get sacks? Or do we just want him to lay in the hole and occupy two guys? What are we looking for to term \"success?\" A trip to the pro bowl? What? I think it was very well agreed he will never live up to being picked 6th in the draft and having two firsts traded to get him, so in my mind since he was picked 6th in the draft he does not have the talent to succeed as a 6th pick in the draft. Had we picked him at 17 or 18 where we were I might feel slightly different, but he has been a waste thus far.

Darren Howard MONDAY Buzz
 

While we\'re on the subject of the Raiders\' CBs ....

It sure looks the Raiders are intent on getting rid of one of their current CBs.

Darren Howard MONDAY Buzz
 

oops, didn\'t see those numbers when i posted...

makes ya sick doesn\'t it? that precisely shows how completely blowing a #6 pick can impact a team for several years. that ongoing cap can haunt ya. i cannot imagine running the the titans and having to pay 20% of your team cap to players no longer even on the team!

***************************************

how bout a howard phase two discussion- first lay out all the likely destinations then vote on the likelihood.

DALLAS--draft picks
-----------dat with draft picks

OAKLAND--draft picks
--------------buchannon with picks
--------------woodson with picks

MINNESOTA--draft picks
-----------------donatarrious thomas (on the bench now) and picks

SEATTLE--draft picks

WASHINGTON--draft picks

>>>>others?

Darren Howard MONDAY Buzz
 

saintwhodi --

So, Sully was the 6th pick in the draft. You seem to hold grudges against certain players.

I could give a damn if Sully was the 1st pick in the draft. Sully didn\'t control where he was picked.

Furthermore, if Sully can help the run defense stop the bleeding and be respectable, then I will be the biggest Sully fan there is.

While he MIGHT not ever live up to being the 6th overall pick, maybe he can be a better than average DT that can help this defense get to where it needs to be.

I don\'t like what Sully has done. But I hold no grudges.

Darren Howard MONDAY Buzz
 

What grudge do I seem to be holding? Cause I don\'t like a fat lazy DT who stole money the past two years and seemed okay with that? God forbid I should want a return on the investment of two firsts and a sixth round pick. I guess the Saints held a grudge against Tesucky by cutting him cause he didn\'t live up to expectations. Come on man. Don\'t hide behind saying anyone has grudges cause you have no answer and you are basing your hopes 100000000000% on pure speculation on whether Sully will amount to anything, while the past two years has shown us exactly who he is. If sully told you he could walk a tight rope 1000 feet above the ground for Ringling Brothers would you believe that too?

Darren Howard MONDAY Buzz
 

Nah, you don\'t hold grudges. You just ooze hate out anytime you talk about Sully.

You\'re right about one thing, though. The only thing I have is HOPE when it comes to Sully.

Just like I had for Donte\' Stallworth when he could never stay on the field in his first two years.

NO ONE likes what Sully has done since he\'s been a Saint.

But your HOT-HEADED opinions are not what I base my decisions on.

Darren Howard MONDAY Buzz
 

billy, i have nothing against the guy except that his actions have indicated not having the heart or desire to succeed- no matter what talent level there is or isn\'t. he has been a flat out embarrassment to the franchise.

as far as his talent i have seen NOTHING to indicate he has that either. two years of opportunity and he cannot make the active roster! he cannot outplay street free agents for gawd sake. my humble opinion is exactly opposite of yours- the team has already given him millions of dollars worth of chances. you don\'t pamper or cater to that sort of pathetic response to the chances (unless you have randy moss/woodson kinda talent, then teams bear with it as long as they can). if you have to keep him a year for cap reasons use him as a blocking dummy in practice until he files a grievance or shows some sign of football life.

Darren Howard MONDAY Buzz
 

Again ... Sully was not benched because he didn\'t have the talent. He was benched because of his attitude and work-ethic.

Grady Jackson got shipped off to Green Bay. Why? It wasn\'t because of a lack of talent. It was because of work-ethic and attitude.

Has Sully shown he has world-class talent? No, but he didn\'t exactly see the field last year, either. And rookie DTs almost always struggle.

Like I said, no one can tell me Sully doesn\'t have the talent.

And I can\'t say he does.

But Sully wasn\'t picked in the 1st round of the draft because he was some bum off the street. Regardless of popular opinion.

The only thing I\'m saying is ... the kid is widely regarded as being a tredmendous athelete as a DT. But his immature attitude has set him back.

If he\'s the same old Sully, then we cut our losses.

Darren Howard MONDAY Buzz
 

Hmm, maybe you wanna check around, I am not the only one.

So you can love on Sully with ZERO evidence he will ever be anything, but someone who has judged the Sully they have seen for the past two years has a grudge?

WE ALL DID, cause at least Donte\'s problems were injury related, and he had 8 tds as a rookie. Sully just hasn\'t been able to cut it and he has been healthy, see the difference? Let me explain it, you can SEE talent that is not performing cause of injury. You KNOW what you have. Look at Randy Moss, think he isn\'t a talented receiver any more cause he didn\'t put up Moss numbers due to injury last year? I doubt it. Sullivan has been perfectly healthy, and was just too horrible to get playing time over a street free agent. Notice the difference?


So why are you saying I have a grudge is NOONE like it, as you state?

I guess when you wanna blow smoke up people\'s butts two years worth of analysis can be seen as hot headed. :o

Darren Howard MONDAY Buzz
 

saintwhodi --

Label me has a \"dreamer\". I just sit around dreaming of Sullivan being the next probowl DT. When obviously Sullivan has ZERO chance at being a good player. At least according to your HOT-HEADED analysis.

People who are decison-makers often get themselves in trouble when they let emotion get in the way. But, of course, you know what you\'re talking about here. Yeah!!

I\'m hoping Sully goes on to put all his problems behind him and becomes a good DT.

You want the sorry bastard cut.

Maybe Sully is as sorry as you say. But you seem to hold a grudge more than you are using your brain. :o

[Edited on 11/4/2005 by GumboBC]

Darren Howard MONDAY Buzz
 

:duel:
oh, and what about that darren howard dewd?
:biggrin:


and people, there would be a whole lot more joy in mudville if there was less dialogue about what we thought of other posters and their perspectives. duel it out over the viewpoints... even if it is off the thread topic. i\'m no mod but that crap turns off the newbies n visitors that don\'t know any better.
:peace:

[Edited on 11/4/2005 by LKelley67]

Darren Howard MONDAY Buzz
 

Like I said, if I am holding a grudge, you have plenty of other Saints fans to point a finger at. Don\'t forget national media who call him a bust. Do we all have grudges? Oh I forget, anyone who questions a player you have a soft spot for has an agenda, whether that player is crap or not. I guess my feelings that Sully is a bust poisoned everyone else who feels the same nationwide, that\'s a mighty fine grudge I have if it holds that much influence. When did you take off the AB glasses and put on the Sully fat suit? ;)

Darren Howard MONDAY Buzz
 

From LKelley: From BRSaints fan: From JKool: In just this thread. Do they have grudges?

Darren Howard MONDAY Buzz
 

I don\'t understand something. Maybe someone can help me.

Cap wise, cutting Sullivan this year will hit us harder than cutting him next year. Is that correct?

If so, what is the downside of giving him a shot in 2005?

I must be missing something. Seems like a no-brainer to me.

Darren Howard MONDAY Buzz
 

http://www.sunherald.com/mld/sunhera...f/11036586.htm

Guess the sun herald has a grudge.

Darren Howard MONDAY Buzz
 

http://www.ffmastermind.com/2005/off...orts/eye43.php

Another site with a grudge.

Darren Howard MONDAY Buzz
 

saintwhodi --

You\'ve called Sullivan a thief for accepting his salary and not performing.

You\'ve called him all sorts of things.

You can find all the articles in the world that agree with you. That doesn\'t make them or you right.

Turn off the hate and look at things objectively.

It would hurt the team more to cut Sully this year rather than next year.

You have NO idea what Sullivan will do THIS year.

And it would be foolish to cut him right now when he COULD have a break-out year.

Darren Howard MONDAY Buzz
 

[quoteSpeaking of lame duck, Jonathan Sullivan went on the inactive list, but that didn\'t stop him from getting his \"snack on\" at the buffet table in the press box. Good to know that Sullivan\'s olfactory senses aren\'t completely missing. I mean, Sullivan can smell a buffet from a mile away like a bloodhound, but he can\'t sniff out an opposing quarterback who\'s five feet away? Amazing. When I think of guys on the Saints\' roster who\'re just taking up space and are there simply to cash paychecks, why is it that Sullivan\'s name immediately comes to mind? Blame the GM and head coach for drafting Sullivan in the first place. This is the worst draft day decision in Saints history…well, after that whole Ricky Williams ordeal.

] [/quote:2d129a87f8]

http://www.wwltv.com/sports/saints/s....a4dd17f7.html

Where are all these grudges coming from?

Darren Howard MONDAY Buzz
 

So everyone is wrong except you? Okay. And don\'t change gears on me now. You said initially don\'t cut him cause he has the talent to succeed, you said nothing about the cap. Stick to your argument which is Sully has the talent. I don\'t give a damn about the cap or cutting him, I am arguing the notion he has talent, which NOONE has any proof for at this point, but there is plenty of proof to the opposite. So don\'t try to switch gears to improve yoru argument. Sully has talent remember? surely you can stand on that argument alone? ;)

Darren Howard MONDAY Buzz
 

From some of our boys here:

http://www.blackandgold.net/site/mod...hread&tid=8747

Darren Howard MONDAY Buzz
 

Little more from our boys:

http://www.blackandgold.net/site/mod...hread&tid=8391

Lots of grudges out there. And I haven\'t found the thread that is actually titles Sullivan is a bust yet. But it\'s all good. Sometimes hope is all you need.

Darren Howard MONDAY Buzz
 

Gumbo, how can you dare call me and Whodi biased or say that we hold grudges or have something personal against Sullivan when you yourself said :
\"Sullivan shouldn\'t be given another chance. I knew this bum wasn\'t any good when he was in college. It was widely reported that he had character problems and most scouts reported he didn\'t have the talent to play in the NFL.

There is absolutely NO way that Sullivan is ever going to do anything. He simply doesn\'t have the talent to play in the NFL. NEVER!!\"

Quite a sudden change of heart on Sullivan eh. And by your arguments, we should still be waiting for Alex Molden to develop into a top flight cover corner. I agree with what Whodi is saying here and what you said in the link that Whodi posted. Sullivan DOES NOT HAVE THE TALENT. Laziness and no heart do not help much either.

Darren Howard MONDAY Buzz
 

saintwhodi --

You never give up do ya?

So what?

I don\'t give a damn if everyone on here is in favor of cutting Sullivan. I don\'t care what articles you pull up.

What I do care about is doing what\'s best for the team.

Sully might go on to be a bust this year. He might go on to play well.

Sullivan didn\'t play last year so you can\'t use last year as proof that he doesn\'t have talent. As hard-headed as you are, surly you understand this.

And rookie DTs almost always struggle.

While I can\'t PROVE Sully has talent. You can\'t prove he doesn\'t!!

Point made? Probably not.

Got something else?

Darren Howard MONDAY Buzz
 

Provide me with a link where I ever said that. If I did ... I\'m sure I was being sarcastic.

But show me where I said it and I\'ll own up to it.

And it seems to me that you hold a grudge when you said you want Sullivan cut no matter if he plays well or not.

How do you explain it any other way?

Darren Howard MONDAY Buzz
 

Okay, maybe you do not know as much about the Saints as you profess Gumbo. You do know Sully didin\'t play much last year cause he sucked right? So your argument is that even though Sully was so bad he couldn\'t get on the field and was beaten by street free agents for his starting job that was handed to him, I can\'t judge him cause we didn\'t get to see him? Oh my gawd that is priceless!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Someone please frame that and never let it go!!! I think I will bust a gut reading back over that one for years to come. He sucked so bad he wasn\'t allowed to play, so I can\'t judge him cause he didn\'t play. LMAO!!!!!

[Edited on 11/4/2005 by saintswhodi]

Darren Howard MONDAY Buzz
 

This is the link that quotes what you said. If you were being sarcastic, then my apologies for bringing it into the discussion. If not, then I dont see how in 2 weeks your opinion changes that much.
http://www.blackandgold.net/site/mod...op=modload&nam e=XForum&file=viewthread&tid=8747

All Im saying is that I do not think that Sullivan has the talent nor the desire to play. And yes I would rather cut Sullivan to watch him go play well elsewhere if it means that we draft a more talented, more motivated DT in the draft that can bring some intensity back into the defensive line to go along with the fire that Grant and Smith carry. I would rather a fiery, talented DT than one with no heart and IMO a severe lack of talent. A friend of mine is well over 300lbs but that doesnt mean that he can play football.

Darren Howard MONDAY Buzz
 

Why do you always spew untruths on here.

What proof do you have that the reason Sullivan was benched last year was because he sucked?

Every report I read said Sullivan got in Haslett\'s dog-house because he reported out of shape and he had a bad attitude.

Yet, you just continue to make things up. You got ANYTHING where Haslett or ANY of the coaching staff said Sully sucked or didn\'t have talent.

Cause I sure as heck got plently where they said Sully was extremely talented.

Get those \"false-hood\" outta here.


BRSaintsFan --

Yeah, I was being \"sarcastic\" in that post.

Maybe you don\'t have a grudge. It just kinda stuck me as odd when you said you wanted Sullivan gone regardless of what kind of player he is this year.



[Edited on 11/4/2005 by GumboBC]

Darren Howard MONDAY Buzz
 

that tebucky had some talent didn\'t he? one fast mamma-jamma!