i read that pat kirwan had stated....

ssmitty · 04-21-2005, 04:11 PM

he believes the redskins got the 25th pick to deal for howard.
although nice, i still believe howard is worth more than that.
smitty

TayTay · 04-21-2005, 04:20 PM

I will take the 25 for Howard and offer a fourth or fith as well.

saintswhodi · 04-21-2005, 04:36 PM

Smitty, that is shocking that you don\'t think a first round pick is enough for Howard. We got him in the 2nd and he has been injured the past two years. If we are gonna go off just his 11 sacks as his value, Lance Johnstone had 11 for Minny(part time player), James Hall had 11.5 for Detroit(part time player), Robert Mathis for Indy and Reggie Hayward formerly of Denver both had 10.5. NONE of these guys listed would be worth a first round pick. How much value are we placing on Howard?

ssmitty · 04-21-2005, 05:01 PM

let me ask you a question....
if the saints thought howard was worth anything they could get for him, why have\'nt they traded him?
seems to me, they could have unloaded him long ago......
if i were in the position to bring someone in, i\'d want the proven player. hell, injured, howard is right up there with the best of em.........it\'s really hard for me to see the difference when he plays injured.......
for once, i think the f.o. is not making hasty decisions.......
i think they know what he\'s worth and are taking their time.
giving up not only a starter, but impact player for the 25th pick of an unknown does not seem fair compensation to me.
but, that\'s my opinion.......
when all the smoke has cleared, we may be left standing with a 3rd and 6th in the 2006 draft for howard, who knows?
i just think we can do a lot better........we\'ll see........smitty
p.s. i have never felt giving up a proven player was smart. either losing them to f.a. or not commiting to pay the bucks, (same difference) it\'s always come back to haunt us, always..

saintswhodi · 04-21-2005, 05:07 PM

smitty, I know you been around for a while, so you have seen a lot of pre-cap football. Given up players these days is not about letting them go, it\'s about what you can afford plain and simple. We were gonna get nothing for Howard, and we can;t afford to keep himin any scenario. How is getting a first round pick for that bad? Howard was a draft pick once, so was almost every other player in the NFL. SO as much as it is a crap shoot, the NFL would not have great players without it. IMO, you are VASTLY over valuing Howard.

And the reason Howard isn\'t traded yet is because at this point, it only makes sense to wait until the draft. Teams will see who is off the board and who they can get. If Philly DID offer pick #31, and Wash IS offering pick 25, would it not make sense to see if Dallas blinks at pick #20? Doesn;t mean something isn;t worked out. But, you are entitled to your opinion, I think you are vastly inflating Howard\'s value though, and vastly underestimating the influence the cap has on us trading him.

natedogg02 · 04-21-2005, 05:15 PM

Would you trade Howard for Arrington straght up

saintswhodi · 04-21-2005, 05:15 PM

Who me? Lavar Arrington? HELL YEAH!!!!!

ssmitty · 04-21-2005, 05:41 PM

tell me a proven player we\'ve gotten rid of that has\'nt come back to haunt us........hell, tell me an unproven one. hint, j.
and we damn sure could have afforded all of em. i understand howard\'s #\'s against the cap.........like i said, contracts are rewritten all the time.......
when the saints wanted dallas\'s linebacker, a proven player for a proven player, did you think that was fair? since i was\'nt a fly on the wall, who knows what else they wanted?
even though i still think an even swap would have been to dallas\'s favor, it was more of a \"even\" or \"worth while\" trade as you knew who you were getting...........bottom line,
fair is fair when you can find someone to give you something in exchange for something you both think has the same value. why not send brooks and howard to dallas for both their first rounders, then trade back for jt, give him a few mil and start over? hell, i like kelleys idea of trading will and keeping howard too...........i\'m kinda getting tired of the projects though, yes, i am............get the proven ones in here so we can get on to the superbowl...........smitty

saintswhodi · 04-21-2005, 05:58 PM

So with that analysis Smitty, Atlanta should have never traded up for Vick, or Baltimore for Suggs. We should never have drafted Deuce when we had Ricky. We should not have drafted Will last year although he was the best player on the board. Philly should never have drafted Lito Shepperd and Sheldon Brown when they had Vincent and Taylor. Come on smitty. \"Proven\" players are replaced all the time. That\'s the way of the NFL. And there is no way we can get Howard under the cap for long term. We keep him this year, our cap is screwed this year. We sign him to a long term deal lowering his cap hit, we get screwed on the cap a few years from now when he is 32. That just delays the inevitable.

But let\'s continue on this proven player thing. So Minny shouldn\'t have traded Moss, although ii allowed them to be able to completely redo their defense. San Fran should never have let Rice leave for the then sane Owens cause Rice was proven, and TO was a young guy with talent. Then San Fran had to trade TO, and he was still a proven player, although completely insane by this point. Corey Dillon was a proven player, how did he end up in NE? How did Hartwell get to leave Baltimore? Free agency is all about proven players going to other teams. It happens. That\'s the NFL. Noone can keep everyone, and we can\'t keep Howard. And a first round pick is a damn good return. Howard is not taking us to the Superbowl next year.

TheDeuce · 04-21-2005, 06:08 PM

I\'m with you on this one Whodi. I think that smitty is overrating Howard\'s value by saying that he is worth more just because he is \"proven.\" Well I know that at one point Howard was an unproven player. Peyton Manning was an unproven player. Ray Lewis was an unproven player. Hell, every player in this league at one point or another was unproven. But they got drafted and got the chance to play in the big show, and they developed into proven players. I understand smitty\'s point that he wants to have proven players on this team, but if we never give the young kids a chance, how will they ever prove themselves and their worth? A first round pick for Darren Howard would be a good deal, because we could be drafting a player who will prove that he\'s gonna be better for this team than Howard. Besides, like Whodi said, Howard\'s salary is just too much for the cap.

04-21-2005, 04:11 PM	#1
ssmitty 1000 Posts + Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 1,879	i read that pat kirwan had stated.... he believes the redskins got the 25th pick to deal for howard. although nice, i still believe howard is worth more than that. smitty
ssmitty 1000 Posts + Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 1,879

04-21-2005, 04:20 PM	#2
TayTay 100th Post Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 118	i read that pat kirwan had stated.... I will take the 25 for Howard and offer a fourth or fith as well.
TayTay 100th Post Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 118

04-21-2005, 05:01 PM	#4
ssmitty 1000 Posts + Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 1,879	i read that pat kirwan had stated.... let me ask you a question.... if the saints thought howard was worth anything they could get for him, why have\'nt they traded him? seems to me, they could have unloaded him long ago...... if i were in the position to bring someone in, i\'d want the proven player. hell, injured, howard is right up there with the best of em.........it\'s really hard for me to see the difference when he plays injured....... for once, i think the f.o. is not making hasty decisions....... i think they know what he\'s worth and are taking their time. giving up not only a starter, but impact player for the 25th pick of an unknown does not seem fair compensation to me. but, that\'s my opinion....... when all the smoke has cleared, we may be left standing with a 3rd and 6th in the 2006 draft for howard, who knows? i just think we can do a lot better........we\'ll see........smitty p.s. i have never felt giving up a proven player was smart. either losing them to f.a. or not commiting to pay the bucks, (same difference) it\'s always come back to haunt us, always..
ssmitty 1000 Posts + Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 1,879

04-21-2005, 05:07 PM	#5
saintswhodi 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: San Antonio, TX Posts: 6,941	i read that pat kirwan had stated.... smitty, I know you been around for a while, so you have seen a lot of pre-cap football. Given up players these days is not about letting them go, it\'s about what you can afford plain and simple. We were gonna get nothing for Howard, and we can;t afford to keep himin any scenario. How is getting a first round pick for that bad? Howard was a draft pick once, so was almost every other player in the NFL. SO as much as it is a crap shoot, the NFL would not have great players without it. IMO, you are VASTLY over valuing Howard. And the reason Howard isn\'t traded yet is because at this point, it only makes sense to wait until the draft. Teams will see who is off the board and who they can get. If Philly DID offer pick #31, and Wash IS offering pick 25, would it not make sense to see if Dallas blinks at pick #20? Doesn;t mean something isn;t worked out. But, you are entitled to your opinion, I think you are vastly inflating Howard\'s value though, and vastly underestimating the influence the cap has on us trading him.

04-21-2005, 05:15 PM	#6
natedogg02 100th Post Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 145	i read that pat kirwan had stated.... Would you trade Howard for Arrington straght up
natedogg02 100th Post Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 145

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04-21-2005, 04:36 PM	#3
saintswhodi 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: San Antonio, TX Posts: 6,941	i read that pat kirwan had stated.... Smitty, that is shocking that you don\'t think a first round pick is enough for Howard. We got him in the 2nd and he has been injured the past two years. If we are gonna go off just his 11 sacks as his value, Lance Johnstone had 11 for Minny(part time player), James Hall had 11.5 for Detroit(part time player), Robert Mathis for Indy and Reggie Hayward formerly of Denver both had 10.5. NONE of these guys listed would be worth a first round pick. How much value are we placing on Howard?

04-21-2005, 05:41 PM	#8
ssmitty 1000 Posts + Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 1,879	i read that pat kirwan had stated.... tell me a proven player we\'ve gotten rid of that has\'nt come back to haunt us........hell, tell me an unproven one. hint, j. and we damn sure could have afforded all of em. i understand howard\'s #\'s against the cap.........like i said, contracts are rewritten all the time....... when the saints wanted dallas\'s linebacker, a proven player for a proven player, did you think that was fair? since i was\'nt a fly on the wall, who knows what else they wanted? even though i still think an even swap would have been to dallas\'s favor, it was more of a \"even\" or \"worth while\" trade as you knew who you were getting...........bottom line, fair is fair when you can find someone to give you something in exchange for something you both think has the same value. why not send brooks and howard to dallas for both their first rounders, then trade back for jt, give him a few mil and start over? hell, i like kelleys idea of trading will and keeping howard too...........i\'m kinda getting tired of the projects though, yes, i am............get the proven ones in here so we can get on to the superbowl...........smitty
ssmitty 1000 Posts + Join Date: Mar 2003 Posts: 1,879

04-21-2005, 05:58 PM	#9
saintswhodi 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: San Antonio, TX Posts: 6,941	i read that pat kirwan had stated.... So with that analysis Smitty, Atlanta should have never traded up for Vick, or Baltimore for Suggs. We should never have drafted Deuce when we had Ricky. We should not have drafted Will last year although he was the best player on the board. Philly should never have drafted Lito Shepperd and Sheldon Brown when they had Vincent and Taylor. Come on smitty. \"Proven\" players are replaced all the time. That\'s the way of the NFL. And there is no way we can get Howard under the cap for long term. We keep him this year, our cap is screwed this year. We sign him to a long term deal lowering his cap hit, we get screwed on the cap a few years from now when he is 32. That just delays the inevitable. But let\'s continue on this proven player thing. So Minny shouldn\'t have traded Moss, although ii allowed them to be able to completely redo their defense. San Fran should never have let Rice leave for the then sane Owens cause Rice was proven, and TO was a young guy with talent. Then San Fran had to trade TO, and he was still a proven player, although completely insane by this point. Corey Dillon was a proven player, how did he end up in NE? How did Hartwell get to leave Baltimore? Free agency is all about proven players going to other teams. It happens. That\'s the NFL. Noone can keep everyone, and we can\'t keep Howard. And a first round pick is a damn good return. Howard is not taking us to the Superbowl next year.

04-21-2005, 06:08 PM	#10
TheDeuce 1000 Posts + Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 2,928	i read that pat kirwan had stated.... I\'m with you on this one Whodi. I think that smitty is overrating Howard\'s value by saying that he is worth more just because he is \"proven.\" Well I know that at one point Howard was an unproven player. Peyton Manning was an unproven player. Ray Lewis was an unproven player. Hell, every player in this league at one point or another was unproven. But they got drafted and got the chance to play in the big show, and they developed into proven players. I understand smitty\'s point that he wants to have proven players on this team, but if we never give the young kids a chance, how will they ever prove themselves and their worth? A first round pick for Darren Howard would be a good deal, because we could be drafting a player who will prove that he\'s gonna be better for this team than Howard. Besides, like Whodi said, Howard\'s salary is just too much for the cap.
TheDeuce 1000 Posts + Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 2,928