Howad will be a Saint.

shadowdrinker · 04-26-2005, 02:00 PM

Well..Darren Howard takes up somewhere close to 10% of the total cap....

McKensie, McAllister and Charles Grant, in my opinion, are collectively more important than Howard alone...

We\'re not in cap trouble as of now...an We can afford to sign our rook\'s..Loomis , if anything, can manipulate the cap to his will...

But...No matter how manipulative you are with the cap..it will catch up eventually...plus...you have got to keep an emergency fund just incase we are forced into signing a Free Agent, due to injury, holdouts, whatever...

Right now..I believe the Saints can manage..but..It\'s not worth the risk...I mean...We of all people should know just how quickly things can fall apart...and without the safety net of extra cap..many teams fall...

Ultimatley..i think , for the good of the team overall, Howard will HAVE to be traded before week 6...I think that\'s the cut off point...simply because we shouldn\'t stick our necks out too far for any one person...it has never worked out for any team..and we won\'t be the exception...

JKool · 04-26-2005, 02:05 PM

Shadow, I pretty well agree with you.

However, this idea that we can just manipulate the cap to our will isn\'t cutting it. For all the criticism the Howard must go group got with respect to not substantiating their claim, at least we pointed to real numbers like these: 7.8 mil, just over 1 mil in remaining cap space, 3.8 mil on average to sign rookies, people calling us the \"cap strapped Saints\". I just don\'t see the other view as any more (and frankly less) plausible: \"we\'ll find a way\" just isn\'t as compelling as the numbers we are facing.

Again, though, I totally agree - even if some how we \"magically\" make it work this year, I see really no reason to think it will help us in the long run.

GoldenTomb · 04-26-2005, 02:14 PM

But...No matter how manipulative you are with the cap..it will catch up eventually...plus...you have got to keep an emergency fund just incase we are forced into signing a Free Agent, due to injury, holdouts, whatever...

Jeebus....I think I must\'ve said this like 5 times already but people tend to ignore it or blow it off for some reason. Or we should at least invest in a crystal ball or something. :casstet:

WhoDat · 04-26-2005, 03:12 PM

I just don\'t get it.

Here is the situation that the Saints are in. Darren Howard is on the team and scheduled to make nearly $8 million in 2005. They have room to sign rookies. Bentley, McAllister, and McKenzie are under contract through the season.

What makes more sense? Wait until June and sign Howard long-term (which if done right might allow us to still trade him without taking too big a cap hit, and maybe he can be around for a couple more years), and then use the $6 million or so of freed up space in June to start talks with Deuce, Bentley, McKenzie, etc....

OR

Trade Howard now (when the VALUE we get in return is likely to be pretty bad), just to free space so we can start negotiating with Deuce, Bentley, and McKenzie in May instead of June...

I just don\'t get that. Even if the Saints and Howard don\'t come to a long-term agreement, the Saints can keep Howard for the year and deal with other players later. I just can\'t seem to see the same fire that you guys see. Howard can be signed long-term. If not, he can be traded, and we can resign important players. I just don\'t understand why that needs to be done in the next week, or else...

shadowdrinker · 04-26-2005, 05:43 PM

When the Saints slapped the franchise tag on Howard, they had every intention of trading him right away...

Now..The draft, and a good portion of the Off Season are both over...and here we sit..still with a franchised DE..who we really don\'t need anymore..

I can see your point..why trade him out now..when we could POSSIBLY get more later?..true...However..he has been known to be somewhat of an injury prone player in the past..he just came off his best year...and He stayed healthy..How can his value increase from this point?

If we go into Pre Season...with Howard..and He gets hurt..We\'re screwed...NOONE will want to give anything at all for him..and his value will drop like a pair of panties on prom night...

The Saints should have traded him earlier...they felt the value wasn\'t there..and I really don\'t see many teams making the reach to get him now..most have moved on..

The only real hope we have now..is for some hot shot DE to get injured early in the Season, or in Pre Season...and that\'s not a good position to be on..

We get rid of him..even if we get shanked..and we kill 5 birds with one stone.

[Edited on 26/4/2005 by shadowdrinker]

mattwill · 04-27-2005, 02:41 AM

Sure, if Howard renegotiates that will help us. If he doesn\'t, his 7.8 mil tender cost will leave us with only 1 mil in cap space (as reported on several sites, and links were given a week ago when we had this discussion the first time). That is not enough to sign our rookies, which cost roughly 3.8 mil each year. (I don\'t see as how that isn\'t enough info Billy.)

If Howard brings his cap number down around 4 mil, we should be able to sign our rookies. If he brings it down around 2.5 mil, we should be able to renegotiate Bentley, which will avoid significant problems until next year.

Whether Howard will renegotiate is a pretty darned big IF right now. I haven\'t seen anything other than one unsubstantiated rumor that he may renegotiate.

What you have outlined would seem to make a Simon for Howard trade a real winner for the Saints. Simon\'s tender is only $5.134 million. The Saints could certainly use a $2.6 plus million increase in their cap right now. The Eagles would have no problem adding the $2.6 million to their cap. It seems like a winner of a deal for the Saints. Am I missing something?

WhoDat · 04-27-2005, 10:12 AM

Doesn\'t seem like it.... and I\'m not saying that I am opposed to a Howard/Simon trade. I\'m simply attacking the logic that says that if we don\'t trade Howard we\'re screwed. I disagree.

The problem with the Howard for Simon idea is that it\'s fiction. The only ones considering it are the people on this board, as far as I know. So the point is really moot.

A question that ressonates in reality is whether or not we can keep Howard at all. Shadow misunderstood my point. It\'s not that we can trade Howard later. It\'s that we DO NOT HAVE to trade Howard at all if there isn\'t GOOD VALUE for the guy. We are able to sign him and keep him.

And I don\'t buy the \"what if he gets hurt\" argument. Every player in the NFL plays under that same \"what if.\"

There are two potential benefits to trading Howard:

1. A reduction in our cap position that would free up space to sign other players (or current players to long-term deals).

2. The possibility of getting a good starter at a need position in return.

All I am suggesting is that trading Howard ONLY to reduce our cap position is dumb, IMO, b/c we don\'t HAVE TO. If you want to give me good value for Howard, fine, make the trade. Otherwise, don\'t go dumping Howard for a 2nd round pick in 2006 b/c he might get hurt and we could start to renegotiate with Bentley RIGHT NOW instead of in JUNE. That just doesn\'t make sense to me.

mattwill · 04-27-2005, 02:54 PM

Doesn\'t seem like it.... and I\'m not saying that I am opposed to a Howard/Simon trade. The problem with the Howard for Simon idea is that it\'s fiction. The only ones considering it are the people on this board, as far as I know. So the point is really moot.

Actually, I checked out the message board on the Eagles\' website, and their fans are discussing the possibilities of a Howard/Simon trade as well. It seems to be a trade that has some resonance with the fans of both teams, but the two respective FOs don\'t seem to have the same enthusiasm for it.

JKool · 04-27-2005, 09:52 PM

They have room to sign rookies.

This is not true. It will take about 3.8 mil to sign our rookies. Our current cap space is just over 1 mil. Without contracts, they will not be in camp.

I like a Howard for Simon trade. It helps both teams - how often does that happen.

shadowdrinker · 04-28-2005, 01:57 AM

Doesn\'t seem like it.... and I\'m not saying that I am opposed to a Howard/Simon trade. I\'m simply attacking the logic that says that if we don\'t trade Howard we\'re screwed. I disagree.

The problem with the Howard for Simon idea is that it\'s fiction. The only ones considering it are the people on this board, as far as I know. So the point is really moot.

A question that ressonates in reality is whether or not we can keep Howard at all. Shadow misunderstood my point. It\'s not that we can trade Howard later. It\'s that we DO NOT HAVE to trade Howard at all if there isn\'t GOOD VALUE for the guy. We are able to sign him and keep him.

And I don\'t buy the \"what if he gets hurt\" argument. Every player in the NFL plays under that same \"what if.\"

There are two potential benefits to trading Howard:

1. A reduction in our cap position that would free up space to sign other players (or current players to long-term deals).

2. The possibility of getting a good starter at a need position in return.

All I am suggesting is that trading Howard ONLY to reduce our cap position is dumb, IMO, b/c we don\'t HAVE TO. If you want to give me good value for Howard, fine, make the trade. Otherwise, don\'t go dumping Howard for a 2nd round pick in 2006 b/c he might get hurt and we could start to renegotiate with Bentley RIGHT NOW instead of in JUNE. That just doesn\'t make sense to me.

I would want you on my team if I was in charge of the Saints...know why?...Patience...you display a steady trigger finger...and that is admirable...

The ONLY problem I have in the whole thing is the franchise tag...I mean..the only reason they did that was to ensure a quality trade...and they failed on thier part to see it through...

I\'m going to take your approach..for now...and put this on the back burner in my mind...I just hope that it doesn\'t come back to haunt us later...

I like Howard...and i know for a fact he\'s a top 10 DE at least...We could always use a guy like that...I just wonder why other teams felt like they didn\'t?

[Edited on 28/4/2005 by shadowdrinker]

04-26-2005, 02:00 PM	#51
shadowdrinker Banned Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 517	Howad will be a Saint. Well..Darren Howard takes up somewhere close to 10% of the total cap.... McKensie, McAllister and Charles Grant, in my opinion, are collectively more important than Howard alone... We\'re not in cap trouble as of now...an We can afford to sign our rook\'s..Loomis , if anything, can manipulate the cap to his will... But...No matter how manipulative you are with the cap..it will catch up eventually...plus...you have got to keep an emergency fund just incase we are forced into signing a Free Agent, due to injury, holdouts, whatever... Right now..I believe the Saints can manage..but..It\'s not worth the risk...I mean...We of all people should know just how quickly things can fall apart...and without the safety net of extra cap..many teams fall... Ultimatley..i think , for the good of the team overall, Howard will HAVE to be traded before week 6...I think that\'s the cut off point...simply because we shouldn\'t stick our necks out too far for any one person...it has never worked out for any team..and we won\'t be the exception...
shadowdrinker Banned Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 517

04-26-2005, 02:05 PM	#52
JKool 1000 Posts + Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Madison, WI Posts: 2,423	Howad will be a Saint. Shadow, I pretty well agree with you. However, this idea that we can just manipulate the cap to our will isn\'t cutting it. For all the criticism the Howard must go group got with respect to not substantiating their claim, at least we pointed to real numbers like these: 7.8 mil, just over 1 mil in remaining cap space, 3.8 mil on average to sign rookies, people calling us the \"cap strapped Saints\". I just don\'t see the other view as any more (and frankly less) plausible: \"we\'ll find a way\" just isn\'t as compelling as the numbers we are facing. Again, though, I totally agree - even if some how we \"magically\" make it work this year, I see really no reason to think it will help us in the long run.
	"... I was beating them with my eyes the whole game..." - Aaron Brooks

04-26-2005, 02:14 PM	#53
GoldenTomb 500th Post Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 591	Howad will be a Saint. But...No matter how manipulative you are with the cap..it will catch up eventually...plus...you have got to keep an emergency fund just incase we are forced into signing a Free Agent, due to injury, holdouts, whatever... Jeebus....I think I must\'ve said this like 5 times already but people tend to ignore it or blow it off for some reason. Or we should at least invest in a crystal ball or something. :casstet:
GoldenTomb 500th Post Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 591

04-26-2005, 03:12 PM	#54
WhoDat 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 5,631	Howad will be a Saint. I just don\'t get it. Here is the situation that the Saints are in. Darren Howard is on the team and scheduled to make nearly $8 million in 2005. They have room to sign rookies. Bentley, McAllister, and McKenzie are under contract through the season. What makes more sense? Wait until June and sign Howard long-term (which if done right might allow us to still trade him without taking too big a cap hit, and maybe he can be around for a couple more years), and then use the $6 million or so of freed up space in June to start talks with Deuce, Bentley, McKenzie, etc.... OR Trade Howard now (when the VALUE we get in return is likely to be pretty bad), just to free space so we can start negotiating with Deuce, Bentley, and McKenzie in May instead of June... I just don\'t get that. Even if the Saints and Howard don\'t come to a long-term agreement, the Saints can keep Howard for the year and deal with other players later. I just can\'t seem to see the same fire that you guys see. Howard can be signed long-term. If not, he can be traded, and we can resign important players. I just don\'t understand why that needs to be done in the next week, or else...
WhoDat 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 5,631	\"Excuses, excuses, excuses. ThatÃ¢Â€Â™s all anyone ever makes for the New Orleans SaintsÃ¢Â€Â™ organization.\" - Eric Narcisse \"Being a Saints fan is almost like being addicted to crack,\" he said.[i]\"You know you should stop, but you just can\'t.\"

04-26-2005, 05:43 PM	#55
shadowdrinker Banned Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 517	Howad will be a Saint. When the Saints slapped the franchise tag on Howard, they had every intention of trading him right away... Now..The draft, and a good portion of the Off Season are both over...and here we sit..still with a franchised DE..who we really don\'t need anymore.. I can see your point..why trade him out now..when we could POSSIBLY get more later?..true...However..he has been known to be somewhat of an injury prone player in the past..he just came off his best year...and He stayed healthy..How can his value increase from this point? If we go into Pre Season...with Howard..and He gets hurt..We\'re screwed...NOONE will want to give anything at all for him..and his value will drop like a pair of panties on prom night... The Saints should have traded him earlier...they felt the value wasn\'t there..and I really don\'t see many teams making the reach to get him now..most have moved on.. The only real hope we have now..is for some hot shot DE to get injured early in the Season, or in Pre Season...and that\'s not a good position to be on.. We get rid of him..even if we get shanked..and we kill 5 birds with one stone. [Edited on 26/4/2005 by shadowdrinker]
shadowdrinker Banned Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 517

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04-27-2005, 02:41 AM	#56
mattwill Rookie Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Davis, CA Posts: 10	Howad will be a Saint. Sure, if Howard renegotiates that will help us. If he doesn\'t, his 7.8 mil tender cost will leave us with only 1 mil in cap space (as reported on several sites, and links were given a week ago when we had this discussion the first time). That is not enough to sign our rookies, which cost roughly 3.8 mil each year. (I don\'t see as how that isn\'t enough info Billy.) If Howard brings his cap number down around 4 mil, we should be able to sign our rookies. If he brings it down around 2.5 mil, we should be able to renegotiate Bentley, which will avoid significant problems until next year. Whether Howard will renegotiate is a pretty darned big IF right now. I haven\'t seen anything other than one unsubstantiated rumor that he may renegotiate. What you have outlined would seem to make a Simon for Howard trade a real winner for the Saints. Simon\'s tender is only $5.134 million. The Saints could certainly use a $2.6 plus million increase in their cap right now. The Eagles would have no problem adding the $2.6 million to their cap. It seems like a winner of a deal for the Saints. Am I missing something?

04-27-2005, 10:12 AM	#57
WhoDat 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 5,631	Howad will be a Saint. Doesn\'t seem like it.... and I\'m not saying that I am opposed to a Howard/Simon trade. I\'m simply attacking the logic that says that if we don\'t trade Howard we\'re screwed. I disagree. The problem with the Howard for Simon idea is that it\'s fiction. The only ones considering it are the people on this board, as far as I know. So the point is really moot. A question that ressonates in reality is whether or not we can keep Howard at all. Shadow misunderstood my point. It\'s not that we can trade Howard later. It\'s that we DO NOT HAVE to trade Howard at all if there isn\'t GOOD VALUE for the guy. We are able to sign him and keep him. And I don\'t buy the \"what if he gets hurt\" argument. Every player in the NFL plays under that same \"what if.\" There are two potential benefits to trading Howard: 1. A reduction in our cap position that would free up space to sign other players (or current players to long-term deals). 2. The possibility of getting a good starter at a need position in return. All I am suggesting is that trading Howard ONLY to reduce our cap position is dumb, IMO, b/c we don\'t HAVE TO. If you want to give me good value for Howard, fine, make the trade. Otherwise, don\'t go dumping Howard for a 2nd round pick in 2006 b/c he might get hurt and we could start to renegotiate with Bentley RIGHT NOW instead of in JUNE. That just doesn\'t make sense to me.
WhoDat 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 5,631	\"Excuses, excuses, excuses. ThatÃ¢Â€Â™s all anyone ever makes for the New Orleans SaintsÃ¢Â€Â™ organization.\" - Eric Narcisse \"Being a Saints fan is almost like being addicted to crack,\" he said.[i]\"You know you should stop, but you just can\'t.\"

04-27-2005, 02:54 PM	#58
mattwill Rookie Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Davis, CA Posts: 10	Howad will be a Saint. Doesn\'t seem like it.... and I\'m not saying that I am opposed to a Howard/Simon trade. The problem with the Howard for Simon idea is that it\'s fiction. The only ones considering it are the people on this board, as far as I know. So the point is really moot. Actually, I checked out the message board on the Eagles\' website, and their fans are discussing the possibilities of a Howard/Simon trade as well. It seems to be a trade that has some resonance with the fans of both teams, but the two respective FOs don\'t seem to have the same enthusiasm for it.

04-27-2005, 09:52 PM	#59
JKool 1000 Posts + Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Madison, WI Posts: 2,423	Howad will be a Saint. They have room to sign rookies. This is not true. It will take about 3.8 mil to sign our rookies. Our current cap space is just over 1 mil. Without contracts, they will not be in camp. I like a Howard for Simon trade. It helps both teams - how often does that happen.

04-28-2005, 01:57 AM	#60
shadowdrinker Banned Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 517	Howad will be a Saint. Doesn\'t seem like it.... and I\'m not saying that I am opposed to a Howard/Simon trade. I\'m simply attacking the logic that says that if we don\'t trade Howard we\'re screwed. I disagree. The problem with the Howard for Simon idea is that it\'s fiction. The only ones considering it are the people on this board, as far as I know. So the point is really moot. A question that ressonates in reality is whether or not we can keep Howard at all. Shadow misunderstood my point. It\'s not that we can trade Howard later. It\'s that we DO NOT HAVE to trade Howard at all if there isn\'t GOOD VALUE for the guy. We are able to sign him and keep him. And I don\'t buy the \"what if he gets hurt\" argument. Every player in the NFL plays under that same \"what if.\" There are two potential benefits to trading Howard: 1. A reduction in our cap position that would free up space to sign other players (or current players to long-term deals). 2. The possibility of getting a good starter at a need position in return. All I am suggesting is that trading Howard ONLY to reduce our cap position is dumb, IMO, b/c we don\'t HAVE TO. If you want to give me good value for Howard, fine, make the trade. Otherwise, don\'t go dumping Howard for a 2nd round pick in 2006 b/c he might get hurt and we could start to renegotiate with Bentley RIGHT NOW instead of in JUNE. That just doesn\'t make sense to me. I would want you on my team if I was in charge of the Saints...know why?...Patience...you display a steady trigger finger...and that is admirable... The ONLY problem I have in the whole thing is the franchise tag...I mean..the only reason they did that was to ensure a quality trade...and they failed on thier part to see it through... I\'m going to take your approach..for now...and put this on the back burner in my mind...I just hope that it doesn\'t come back to haunt us later... I like Howard...and i know for a fact he\'s a top 10 DE at least...We could always use a guy like that...I just wonder why other teams felt like they didn\'t? [Edited on 28/4/2005 by shadowdrinker]
shadowdrinker Banned Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 517