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this is a discussion within the Saints Community Forum; Simply as a matter of \"need,\" I\'m in support of the (theoretical) trade. Most agree Will Smith is ready to start, even if he\'s not reached Howard\'s calibre quite yet, and he draws less water against the overall cap. There\'s ...
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04-25-2005, 05:08 PM | #21 |
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04-25-2005, 05:17 PM | #22 |
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Is DT really a need?
According to most Saints\' fans its a huge need. But what insight do fans really have? Most fans are way too emotional when it comes to Jonathan Sullivan. I\'ve heard Haslett say on more than one occassion that Sullivan is extremely talented and that his attitude is what has held him back. I heard defensive line coach John Pease say the samething. I\'ve read where Sullivan has a new attitude and that he\'s been working out and losing weight. (He\'s almost at his ideal playing weight now.) If you listen to fans, then there\'s no way Sullivan is a player for us this year. If you listen to Haslett and John Pease then there\'s more of a reason to believe Sullivan will contribute. Given that Sullivan was a 1st round talent when he was drafted then is it really worth the risk of drafting a DT in the first round when Sullivan might step up? If Sullivan does step up then it would seem like a foolish pick when you consider we had so many other needs on defense. If Sullivan doesn\'t step up ... are all of our other DTS so bad? Simply stated: With the way Haslett and Loomis approached free-agency and the draft ... it seems like they are pretty confident with Sullivan and our exsisting defensive tackles. Not that Haslett is always right, but I\'ve got to put more faith in Haslett than the fans. |
04-25-2005, 05:29 PM | #23 |
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04-25-2005, 05:33 PM | #24 |
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04-25-2005, 05:37 PM | #25 |
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saintwhodi --
Seeing that you have called Sullivan a \"theif\" ... I really don\'t put a lot of stock in your opinion of Sullivan. You\'ve written Sullivan off. And you have the that right. But given the FACT that Sullivan is still on this team ... then I\'ve got to think Haslett believes in Sullivan. Now, if I take the most \"pessimistic\" view on Jonathan Sullivan, then I\'d say he\'s a bum and he\'s a \"theif\". But, I\'m going based on what I\'ve heard Haslett say with my own two ears. I don\'t have a link where Loomis said they weren\'t going to trade Darren Howard \"unless soneone offers something that made his eyes roll\". But he said it nonetheless!! If you want to believe I\'m lying ... then that\'s your right. I, however, heard him say it. When I want to believe your opinion over Haslett and Loomis then I\'ll let you know. Don\'t hold yoru breath!! [Edited on 25/4/2005 by GumboBC] |
04-25-2005, 05:46 PM | #26 |
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Hmm...
CHOICE: Defend the overall position OR simply defend Sullivan = ANSWER: simply defend Sullivan Think I see where this is going... Oh well, nice proposal anyway Danno. I still like the trade idea... |
04-25-2005, 05:54 PM | #27 |
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I don\'t know Sullivan and I have no reason to defend Sullivan. What I\'m doing is trying to show there might be a reason why DT wasn\'t addressed in free-agency of the draft. And the reason may be that Haslett and John Pease believes Sullivan will step up? Is that impossible? Is it impossible that a 1st round draft choice might produce? Certainly it\'s not impossible. There is NO way Haslett is going to publically state Sullivan is going to have a break-out year. They are going to be cautious regarding anything they say about Sullivan. Nobody knows what to expect from Sullivan this year. Not me. Not you. Not any fans. But I have to think with the Saints not addressing DT in the draft or free-agency that they feel pretty confident with who they have. Whether that\'s Sullivan or one of our other DTs. As far as our run defense finishing 32nd. That isn\'t all on our DTs. With your reasoning ... we need to get rid or Brian Young, Howard Green, Coutney Watson, Cobly Bockwoldt, James Allen, Darren Howard, and Will Smith. All of those players have a big role in stopping the run. Does this mean I don\'t think we need DTs? Nope. Just making some observations. [Edited on 25/4/2005 by GumboBC] |
04-25-2005, 06:13 PM | #28 |
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GumboBC,
I wasn\'t attacking you. I said above I\'d be as happy as anyone if Sully finally shows up next season. It\'d be about lately - as far as I\'m concerned - but if he shows up I\'m thrilled.
I don\'t wanna cut the entire front seven, I just want them to stop the friggin\' run. Remember, I said:
To get back to the subject of the thread: Is DT a more pressing need than DE? Would you be interested in a Howard/Simon trade? Whodi pointed out Trotter\'s resurgence once he got back behind Corey Simon; do you think Watson, Fincher ... heck, Ruff ... could perform better with a Pro Bowl DT wrecking havoc in the middle? I\'m still willing to give Sullivan a chance (though his chances are waning). But would you feel better about a proven DT - a player who has ALREADY realized & proven his potential - taking over if we could give up Howard to get it done? [Edited on 25/4/2005 by mutineer10] |
04-25-2005, 06:48 PM | #29 |
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Good points mutey. But you are gonna get the classic attack the poster and not the post responses. Notice how it was said that things were read MANY TIMES and said MANY Times, but there is not many links to be found? All I asked for was to read the same thing. First response, saintswhodi, you called Sullivan a thief. So basically, I have zero proof to what I am saying, so I will attack the poster and try to discredit them. Isn\'t that against the rules? But it\'s the typical response. Then peopel wonder why you get pissed at stuff like that. Of well, I tried. I went point by point, never attacked the poster, and never got a response except to attack something I said months ago. So if it smells like it, looks like it, and messes up your shoes like it, it must be :icon_bs:
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04-25-2005, 07:43 PM | #30 |
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Here is the form: Coach A says y Therefore, y. I\'m certain that no one would be here to discuss anything if we all thought we should just believe whatever a coach/scout/professional journalist/whoever says. What would be the point in discussing anything? I\'m sure you heard Haz and Pease say that Sullivan was talented, but I\'ve also heard them say \"he didn\'t come to camp prepared\", \"he came to camp overweight and out of shape.\" (well, Haz anyway) Even if he is extremely talented, he\'s never on the field. It is hard to stop the run from the press box (or the buffet line). DT is a need UNLESS there is some stuff that is true about Sully that we haven\'t heard during this offseason or is somehow unknowable by us. I think that the best position on Sully is this: he hasn\'t produced so far, and there is little evidence one way or the other whether or not he will this year. That means this: we have Young and Green and/or the big ol\' question mark that is Sully starting for us. That seems sufficient to make the judgement that we have a need at DT. If Sully steps up then Simon and Sully would be our starters... damn. If we don\'t get Simon and Sully shows up, we\'ve got Young and Sully... solid to damn. Either way, if we keep Howard, we\'ve got Smith and Grant one way or the other. I fail to see what is bad about a Simon trade. The question at hand isn\'t: what is the actually best thing for the Saints to do, since I agree fan\'s have a dearth of information. The question is: given the best arguments made, what does it seem reasonable for the Saints to do. That is the best we can ever do on a message board. I agree that fans are sometimes too emotional, but I wonder why you\'d think that it is fun or worth discussing in favor of coach\'s claim? |
"... I was beating them with my eyes the whole game..." - Aaron Brooks
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