...the AB challenge.

JKool · 05-03-2005, 01:19 PM

I agree that accountability matters.

There are many ways to hold a player accountable that do not involve benching him. I believe that we don\'t have enough information to say that Brooks isn\'t being held accountable in the locker room, during film studies, in the coach\'s office, etc. I\'m sure some general arguments can be made, but I\'m just not convinced (yet) that there is such a tremendous lack of accountability - especially in light of recent events (benching Sully, cutting T-buck, etc.

Say you have three QBs on your roster.
QB1 is 10 good.
QB2 is 4 good.
QB3 is 2 good.

QB1 continuously plays at 70%. He is frustrating, and has a giant ego.

Is it best to bench 10, or work with him on the side - like sending him to \"leadership school\", putting him in charge of work-outs, and generally doing things to help him grow up and see the value of the team?

Of course, that is a general argument. However, the point is, the \'we don\'t have anyone better\' argument does have some merit (though not as much as some give it). The fictional team here will do better by NOT benching the player and using other motivational strategies.

In the end, perhaps this dispute about what to do with AB comes down to how you think you motivate, improve, and coach players. Some coaches are \"punishment and embarassment\" are the best methods, others are \"build a sense of team and personal dignity\" coaches. It is not clear to me which is most effective, but they are both good methods.

saintswhodi · 05-03-2005, 01:32 PM

Good points Kool. Very good. Here are my thoughts:

1) Haslett has proven he is an example disciplinarian. Cutting T-suck, benching Sully, Devery not playing, Hand gone, Jackson gone, Craver told to leave camp last year, Smith cut after eating with Sully at the buffet. He has proven this is his MO with all but one player.

2) Which leads us to your QB example. And it is also a good example. Here\'s my thing. You have proven to be an example leader with all but the one player that should be held most accountable. There is no need to make a season or pemanent example. But if you are in a game, and QB 10 good makes a boneheaded play that you have worked to improve, bench QB 10 good for a series to make a point. You can thus progress from there. Maybe it will take a quarter, maybe it will take a game, but by doing nothing with QB 10 good, and making examples at every other position on the team, you are not holding a very high standard of integrity or fairplay when it comes to tolerance. And this is an example a coach can not fail it. You can not succeed on any level as a coach if certain players believe you tend to play favorites. That invites discension(sp?) and infighting. My favorite tea in the NBA is the Spurs, and I love Pop as a coach because he will yell at Tim Duncan for making a mistake just as he will yell at Sean Marks the 12th man. That welcomes a TEAM concept.

3) Just a rehash slightly, but noone is saying sit AB for a year. But you throw a backwards pass to a lineman, you should be on the bench the next series. Follow up in the next game with an underhanded pass to a LB for a TD, on the bench the next quarter. Thus although not as harsh, the standards would be the same for all, which It hink is one of the biggest problems.

JKool · 05-03-2005, 01:41 PM

I think we agree then.

It is of note then that the \"sent messages\", once thought through are not always what people think they were. It is worth examining what \"message is being sent\" in some detail before making general claims about them.

baronm · 05-03-2005, 02:04 PM

I agree that accountability matters.

There are many ways to hold a player accountable that do not involve benching him. I believe that we don\'t have enough information to say that Brooks isn\'t being held accountable in the locker room, during film studies, in the coach\'s office, etc. I\'m sure some general arguments can be made, but I\'m just not convinced (yet) that there is such a tremendous lack of accountability - especially in light of recent events (benching Sully, cutting T-buck, etc.

Say you have three QBs on your roster.
QB1 is 10 good.
QB2 is 4 good.
QB3 is 2 good.

QB1 continuously plays at 70%. He is frustrating, and has a giant ego.

Is it best to bench 10, or work with him on the side - like sending him to \"leadership school\", putting him in charge of work-outs, and generally doing things to help him grow up and see the value of the team?

Of course, that is a general argument. However, the point is, the \'we don\'t have anyone better\' argument does have some merit (though not as much as some give it). The fictional team here will do better by NOT benching the player and using other motivational strategies.

In the end, perhaps this dispute about what to do with AB comes down to how you think you motivate, improve, and coach players. Some coaches are \"punishment and embarassment\" are the best methods, others are \"build a sense of team and personal dignity\" coaches. It is not clear to me which is most effective, but they are both good methods.

agreed..but the one instance that really irked me was the comments about \"it\'s not me, it\'s the team\"--that I definitly would\'ve benched him for.

as for the poor first halves-you take the starter out and go to them pen when the starter just ain\'t getting it done..and now we have that option with the two young guys.

Haslett has proven he is an example disciplinarian. Cutting T-suck, benching Sully, Devery not playing, Hand gone, Jackson gone, Craver told to leave camp last year, Smith cut after eating with Sully at the buffet. He has proven this is his MO with all but one player.

my point excatly. I don\'t care if you\'re peyton manning or tom brady..I don\'t belive in letting one player dictate terms.

[Edited on 3/5/2005 by baronm]

baronm · 05-03-2005, 02:11 PM

Good points Kool. Very good. Here are my thoughts:

1) Haslett has proven he is an example disciplinarian. Cutting T-suck, benching Sully, Devery not playing, Hand gone, Jackson gone, Craver told to leave camp last year, Smith cut after eating with Sully at the buffet. He has proven this is his MO with all but one player.

2) Which leads us to your QB example. And it is also a good example. Here\'s my thing. You have proven to be an example leader with all but the one player that should be held most accountable. There is no need to make a season or pemanent example. But if you are in a game, and QB 10 good makes a boneheaded play that you have worked to improve, bench QB 10 good for a series to make a point. You can thus progress from there. Maybe it will take a quarter, maybe it will take a game, but by doing nothing with QB 10 good, and making examples at every other position on the team, you are not holding a very high standard of integrity or fairplay when it comes to tolerance. And this is an example a coach can not fail it. You can not succeed on any level as a coach if certain players believe you tend to play favorites. That invites discension(sp?) and infighting. My favorite tea in the NBA is the Spurs, and I love Pop as a coach because he will yell at Tim Duncan for making a mistake just as he will yell at Sean Marks the 12th man. That welcomes a TEAM concept.

3) Just a rehash slightly, but noone is saying sit AB for a year. But you throw a backwards pass to a lineman, you should be on the bench the next series. Follow up in the next game with an underhanded pass to a LB for a TD, on the bench the next quarter. Thus although not as harsh, the standards would be the same for all, which It hink is one of the biggest problems.

I\'m a huge spurs fan too..and larry brown\'s piston\'s..and the braves--so I guess I\'m a very team first fan..I think that the team concept wins championships, not the superstar...look at new england and the old cowboys.

WhoDat · 05-03-2005, 02:28 PM

(1) I don\'t see why you are always trying to figure out my motivations.

AMEN!!!!! Argue the point. If it\'s a bad one, then it should be apparent why it is and you should be able to use facts about football to show why it is illogical.

There is one exception of course. If you\'re talking to Billy, there is no logic, so you can only look at motives!!! :P LOL.

(For all of you posters who feel oppressed by such aggressive and mean-spirited comments, before you go cry yourself to sleep, that last comment about Billy was a JOKE!!! If he were around, he\'d know it and not be offended by it. If it offends you, PM me and I can clue you in. :casstet: )

[Edited on 3/5/2005 by WhoDat]

saintswhodi · 05-03-2005, 03:18 PM

You are confusing me Kool. I never mentioned you once, I didn\'t speak up until Tobias\' point. Saints LB spoke to you. Did the avatar confuse you? You got the wrong guy man. Chill.

Whodi,

Apologies. You guys and that freakin\' avatar! There should be a rule or something...

for the record.

[Edited on 3/5/2005 by saintswhodi]

Tobias-Reiper · 05-03-2005, 06:52 PM

... Whodi and JKool got the point of the question...

... you cannot give a single individual credit for the success and none of the blame... of course, the opposite it true also...

... football is the ultimate team sport in that, all things equal, to succeed it not only requires comparable success from the 3 distinctive units that compose the whole team, but individual success within those units, performing an especialized task...

...that said... there are some coaches/players who, as individuals, given their character, charisma, personality, \"it\", whatever you want to call it, have the ability to inspire the people around them to dig deeper, to want to do better, to give it theirall, to heed their words... these individuals aren\'t always the fastest, nor the strongest, but they have that something special that is rare among people, which makes the people around them better...

of course, there aren\'t as many as ESPN would like you to believe...

... now, to answer the original question...
... I don\'t know if \"laying off\" is the right term...
... again, I\'ll have to respond, for the nth time, it is not about the numbers...

... I don\'t demand too much of Brooks... just to hear him say
\"WE\"...

...

SaintFanInATLHELL · 05-04-2005, 08:14 AM

You guys are nuts saying that AB has had int prob\'s. Last year was the worst i can remember him ever doing. (you guys really beleive that throwing 30 to 60 times a game and being down by 30 at halftime does\'nt have anything to do with his int\'s last year?)

Brooks had 22 INTs in 2001.

SFIAH

05-03-2005, 01:19 PM	#51
JKool 1000 Posts + Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Madison, WI Posts: 2,423	...the AB challenge. I agree that accountability matters. There are many ways to hold a player accountable that do not involve benching him. I believe that we don\'t have enough information to say that Brooks isn\'t being held accountable in the locker room, during film studies, in the coach\'s office, etc. I\'m sure some general arguments can be made, but I\'m just not convinced (yet) that there is such a tremendous lack of accountability - especially in light of recent events (benching Sully, cutting T-buck, etc. Say you have three QBs on your roster. QB1 is 10 good. QB2 is 4 good. QB3 is 2 good. QB1 continuously plays at 70%. He is frustrating, and has a giant ego. Is it best to bench 10, or work with him on the side - like sending him to \"leadership school\", putting him in charge of work-outs, and generally doing things to help him grow up and see the value of the team? Of course, that is a general argument. However, the point is, the \'we don\'t have anyone better\' argument does have some merit (though not as much as some give it). The fictional team here will do better by NOT benching the player and using other motivational strategies. In the end, perhaps this dispute about what to do with AB comes down to how you think you motivate, improve, and coach players. Some coaches are \"punishment and embarassment\" are the best methods, others are \"build a sense of team and personal dignity\" coaches. It is not clear to me which is most effective, but they are both good methods.
	"... I was beating them with my eyes the whole game..." - Aaron Brooks

05-03-2005, 01:32 PM	#52
saintswhodi 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: San Antonio, TX Posts: 6,941	...the AB challenge. Good points Kool. Very good. Here are my thoughts: 1) Haslett has proven he is an example disciplinarian. Cutting T-suck, benching Sully, Devery not playing, Hand gone, Jackson gone, Craver told to leave camp last year, Smith cut after eating with Sully at the buffet. He has proven this is his MO with all but one player. 2) Which leads us to your QB example. And it is also a good example. Here\'s my thing. You have proven to be an example leader with all but the one player that should be held most accountable. There is no need to make a season or pemanent example. But if you are in a game, and QB 10 good makes a boneheaded play that you have worked to improve, bench QB 10 good for a series to make a point. You can thus progress from there. Maybe it will take a quarter, maybe it will take a game, but by doing nothing with QB 10 good, and making examples at every other position on the team, you are not holding a very high standard of integrity or fairplay when it comes to tolerance. And this is an example a coach can not fail it. You can not succeed on any level as a coach if certain players believe you tend to play favorites. That invites discension(sp?) and infighting. My favorite tea in the NBA is the Spurs, and I love Pop as a coach because he will yell at Tim Duncan for making a mistake just as he will yell at Sean Marks the 12th man. That welcomes a TEAM concept. 3) Just a rehash slightly, but noone is saying sit AB for a year. But you throw a backwards pass to a lineman, you should be on the bench the next series. Follow up in the next game with an underhanded pass to a LB for a TD, on the bench the next quarter. Thus although not as harsh, the standards would be the same for all, which It hink is one of the biggest problems.

05-03-2005, 01:41 PM	#53
JKool 1000 Posts + Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Madison, WI Posts: 2,423	...the AB challenge. I think we agree then. It is of note then that the \"sent messages\", once thought through are not always what people think they were. It is worth examining what \"message is being sent\" in some detail before making general claims about them.

05-03-2005, 02:04 PM	#54
baronm 500th Post Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 954	...the AB challenge. I agree that accountability matters. There are many ways to hold a player accountable that do not involve benching him. I believe that we don\'t have enough information to say that Brooks isn\'t being held accountable in the locker room, during film studies, in the coach\'s office, etc. I\'m sure some general arguments can be made, but I\'m just not convinced (yet) that there is such a tremendous lack of accountability - especially in light of recent events (benching Sully, cutting T-buck, etc. Say you have three QBs on your roster. QB1 is 10 good. QB2 is 4 good. QB3 is 2 good. QB1 continuously plays at 70%. He is frustrating, and has a giant ego. Is it best to bench 10, or work with him on the side - like sending him to \"leadership school\", putting him in charge of work-outs, and generally doing things to help him grow up and see the value of the team? Of course, that is a general argument. However, the point is, the \'we don\'t have anyone better\' argument does have some merit (though not as much as some give it). The fictional team here will do better by NOT benching the player and using other motivational strategies. In the end, perhaps this dispute about what to do with AB comes down to how you think you motivate, improve, and coach players. Some coaches are \"punishment and embarassment\" are the best methods, others are \"build a sense of team and personal dignity\" coaches. It is not clear to me which is most effective, but they are both good methods. agreed..but the one instance that really irked me was the comments about \"it\'s not me, it\'s the team\"--that I definitly would\'ve benched him for. as for the poor first halves-you take the starter out and go to them pen when the starter just ain\'t getting it done..and now we have that option with the two young guys. Haslett has proven he is an example disciplinarian. Cutting T-suck, benching Sully, Devery not playing, Hand gone, Jackson gone, Craver told to leave camp last year, Smith cut after eating with Sully at the buffet. He has proven this is his MO with all but one player. my point excatly. I don\'t care if you\'re peyton manning or tom brady..I don\'t belive in letting one player dictate terms. [Edited on 3/5/2005 by baronm]
baronm 500th Post Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 954

05-03-2005, 02:11 PM	#55
baronm 500th Post Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 954	...the AB challenge. Good points Kool. Very good. Here are my thoughts: 1) Haslett has proven he is an example disciplinarian. Cutting T-suck, benching Sully, Devery not playing, Hand gone, Jackson gone, Craver told to leave camp last year, Smith cut after eating with Sully at the buffet. He has proven this is his MO with all but one player. 2) Which leads us to your QB example. And it is also a good example. Here\'s my thing. You have proven to be an example leader with all but the one player that should be held most accountable. There is no need to make a season or pemanent example. But if you are in a game, and QB 10 good makes a boneheaded play that you have worked to improve, bench QB 10 good for a series to make a point. You can thus progress from there. Maybe it will take a quarter, maybe it will take a game, but by doing nothing with QB 10 good, and making examples at every other position on the team, you are not holding a very high standard of integrity or fairplay when it comes to tolerance. And this is an example a coach can not fail it. You can not succeed on any level as a coach if certain players believe you tend to play favorites. That invites discension(sp?) and infighting. My favorite tea in the NBA is the Spurs, and I love Pop as a coach because he will yell at Tim Duncan for making a mistake just as he will yell at Sean Marks the 12th man. That welcomes a TEAM concept. 3) Just a rehash slightly, but noone is saying sit AB for a year. But you throw a backwards pass to a lineman, you should be on the bench the next series. Follow up in the next game with an underhanded pass to a LB for a TD, on the bench the next quarter. Thus although not as harsh, the standards would be the same for all, which It hink is one of the biggest problems. I\'m a huge spurs fan too..and larry brown\'s piston\'s..and the braves--so I guess I\'m a very team first fan..I think that the team concept wins championships, not the superstar...look at new england and the old cowboys.
baronm 500th Post Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 954

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05-03-2005, 02:28 PM	#56
WhoDat 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 5,631	...the AB challenge. (1) I don\'t see why you are always trying to figure out my motivations. AMEN!!!!! Argue the point. If it\'s a bad one, then it should be apparent why it is and you should be able to use facts about football to show why it is illogical. There is one exception of course. If you\'re talking to Billy, there is no logic, so you can only look at motives!!! :P LOL. (For all of you posters who feel oppressed by such aggressive and mean-spirited comments, before you go cry yourself to sleep, that last comment about Billy was a JOKE!!! If he were around, he\'d know it and not be offended by it. If it offends you, PM me and I can clue you in. :casstet: ) [Edited on 3/5/2005 by WhoDat]
WhoDat 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 5,631	\"Excuses, excuses, excuses. ThatÃ¢Â€Â™s all anyone ever makes for the New Orleans SaintsÃ¢Â€Â™ organization.\" - Eric Narcisse \"Being a Saints fan is almost like being addicted to crack,\" he said.[i]\"You know you should stop, but you just can\'t.\"

05-03-2005, 03:18 PM	#57
saintswhodi 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: San Antonio, TX Posts: 6,941	...the AB challenge. You are confusing me Kool. I never mentioned you once, I didn\'t speak up until Tobias\' point. Saints LB spoke to you. Did the avatar confuse you? You got the wrong guy man. Chill. Whodi, Apologies. You guys and that freakin\' avatar! There should be a rule or something... for the record. [Edited on 3/5/2005 by saintswhodi]

05-03-2005, 06:52 PM	#58
Tobias-Reiper Merces Letifer Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 4,161	...the AB challenge. ... Whodi and JKool got the point of the question... ... you cannot give a single individual credit for the success and none of the blame... of course, the opposite it true also... ... football is the ultimate team sport in that, all things equal, to succeed it not only requires comparable success from the 3 distinctive units that compose the whole team, but individual success within those units, performing an especialized task... ...that said... there are some coaches/players who, as individuals, given their character, charisma, personality, \"it\", whatever you want to call it, have the ability to inspire the people around them to dig deeper, to want to do better, to give it theirall, to heed their words... these individuals aren\'t always the fastest, nor the strongest, but they have that something special that is rare among people, which makes the people around them better... of course, there aren\'t as many as ESPN would like you to believe... ... now, to answer the original question... ... I don\'t know if \"laying off\" is the right term... ... again, I\'ll have to respond, for the nth time, it is not about the numbers... ... I don\'t demand too much of Brooks... just to hear him say \"WE\"... ...
	'Cause the simple man pays the thrills, the bills and the pills that kill

05-04-2005, 08:14 AM	#59
SaintFanInATLHELL The Professor Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Lithonia, GA Posts: 2,773	...the AB challenge. You guys are nuts saying that AB has had int prob\'s. Last year was the worst i can remember him ever doing. (you guys really beleive that throwing 30 to 60 times a game and being down by 30 at halftime does\'nt have anything to do with his int\'s last year?) Brooks had 22 INTs in 2001. SFIAH