Play Offs/Changes in Game Plan/Personnel Usage

TheOak · 11-30-2018, 07:46 PM

Its been years since I have done anything like this here so please bear with me.

I have commented here about the recent change in personnel usage and game plan. Then when I was talking with a friend who is a Raiders fan, he doesnt see the Saints often, his comment was "I felt like the Saints were holding back in case they saw them again in the playoffs".

He is a pretty sharp cat so that made me think my hunch might be worth some research to see if there was actually a trend and not just me reading into something.

Atlanta - No points by Thomas/Kamara/Ingram (The players responsible for I am sure over 80% of our points this season.

Taysom Hill - 4-6 carriers per game was the norm for him this season. 2 against Atlanta, 0 Against Dallas.

Dallas - Opened with three passing plays. Nearly every game this season I remember seeing at least two rushing plays in the first possession. 4th and goal, Kamara up the middle instead of stringing it out to play on his strengths? Ingram is our up the middle goal line back.

Sean is in SB run mode and while I wouldn't say he is holding back, he is limiting tape and exposure to what he plans on turning loose in the playoffs. There is no denying that we were flat, I just think Sean is prepping for playoffs.

2009 was a similar season we lost in similar fashion to Dallas and ended up 13-3.

ChrisXVI · 11-30-2018, 08:10 PM

I think you’re spot on. Something wasn’t right. That wasn’t us.

saintfan · 11-30-2018, 09:34 PM

Definitely looked like a different team, and it wasn't just that we looked flat, we looked..well..different. Maybe you're on to something. I like it better than some of the conspiracy theories, that's for sure.

The Dude · 11-30-2018, 11:34 PM

Idk I find it hard to believe he would hold back many plays when the number 1 seed on the line. He has limited Taysoms role because teams are starting to figure him out. in Taysoms case maybe he is keeping one or two plays up his sleeve. He’s done enough damage to where teams are forced to respect him when he is in. He’s let teams know what he’s got in Taysom.
As for Kamara and Thomas I think teams are just finding ways to limit them. He knew it would happen eventually hence the signing of Bryant and Marshall. I think Payton would be more likely to save trickery rather than doing something like Kamara up the middle.
That was just a bad play call against a team that had the defensive momentum as well as balls bouncing their way. Should have gone for 3 given the way the game was shaking out at that point.
I think a healthy Armstead could have greatly changed the outcome of that game.
On another note in spite of the way we played that ****ty call where they were given the first down when they were obviously a yard short pisses me off. Drew absolutely thrives on drives like we would have had. I have zero doubt we would have scored. None.

TheOak · 12-01-2018, 08:01 AM

Originally Posted by The Dude

Idk I find it hard to believe he would hold back many plays when the number 1 seed on the line. He has limited Taysoms role because teams are starting to figure him out. in Taysoms case maybe he is keeping one or two plays up his sleeve. He’s done enough damage to where teams are forced to respect him when he is in. He’s let teams know what he’s got in Taysom.
As for Kamara and Thomas I think teams are just finding ways to limit them. He knew it would happen eventually hence the signing of Bryant and Marshall. I think Payton would be more likely to save trickery rather than doing something like Kamara up the middle.
That was just a bad play call against a team that had the defensive momentum as well as balls bouncing their way. Should have gone for 3 given the way the game was shaking out at that point.
I think a healthy Armstead could have greatly changed the outcome of that game.
On another note in spite of the way we played that ****ty call where they were given the first down when they were obviously a yard short pisses me off. Drew absolutely thrives on drives like we would have had. I have zero doubt we would have scored. None.

With anything being possible, the question becomes “what is more plausible”
1. Sean Payton, the coach that squibbed the 1/2 time kick in a Super Bowl, coaches like a chess player and has a strategy which involves limiting tape?

Or

2. The Atlanta Falcons defensive (29th Scoring D in the league) has figured out how to shut down Thomas and Kamara (some of the highest scoring players in the league) and keep them out of the end zone.

I think your right

Beastmode · 12-01-2018, 08:32 AM

He is focusing away from them. Tried to do it earlier in the season but with the RB fiasco, WR mess he could not do it.

We loss but it's going to happen trying different things to improve the team. Think the first pass was to Kirkwood for example.

Dallas won but they are actually not a diverse team and it's going to get them in the end. Those calls won't be there every game and Prescott trying to run on 3rd will be taken away along with Cooper. We exposed it but it was a little late.

Rugby Saint II · 12-03-2018, 04:51 PM

You really never know what you are going to get with Sean Payton....crazy mad scientist or just crazy head scratching play calls?

lumm0x · 12-03-2018, 05:25 PM

While I try not to be a conspiracy theorist I think there may be a speck of possibility in this.

Looking at remaining schedules, the only likely opportunity for the Rams to lose may be against Chicago barring sitting players for the playoffs.

It may be plausible that he is looking ahead at remaining games and thinking he can experiment a bit and as stated, maybe limit usable game film from these remaining games while still securing the #2 seed. I don't think he in any way fears a road game in LA as a possible eventuality. LA really has very little "home field advantage" when it comes to their stadium and fan base. Opposition fans tend to be 50/50 or better in there at games and it doesn't really equate to a LA benefit hosting like it does with many other teams in their house.

I too feel like we played horribly flat and uninspired football on the offensive side of the ball. And as Brees said, never really hit a rhythm offensively and this may be due to trying to force the offense out of their comfort zone of play style. I'm sure he doesn't want to lose games and didn't anticipate it negatively impacting us the way it did. But I can consider that he was experimenting too much. I think he knows what we can and can't do and was bored. He essentially played with his food a little too much and it got away.

neugey · 12-03-2018, 05:44 PM

Despite all the posturing by us fans and the football experts out there ... this game meant more to Dallas than it did to us. Now I'm not discounting home field throughout isn't important ... but we are mostly a shoo-in to win our division as compared to the Cowboys who have to worry more with the Redskins and Eagles so close to them. We can afford to hold back a little, Dallas not at all.

jeanpierre · 12-03-2018, 06:08 PM

Twenty years ago, I'd wholeheartedly agree with that supposition - But with NFL expanded staffs and budgets today, digital footage, integrated analytic software, it really isn't a factor now...

And many teams have staffs of 3-7 folks going through footage for the entire current season for upcoming opponents...

Differing levels of commitment, but most players and coaches are not mailing the effort in, actually putting in the work, even with the support staff compiling the research for them...

At the end of the day, great athletes that the Saints are, and even the coaching staff, coming off 5 road games in 7 weeks, 3 NFL Battle-Royales in Twelve Days, no matter the pride, they were fatigued/burnt-out...

11-30-2018, 07:46 PM	#1
TheOak 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Cypress Tx. Posts: 18,978	Play Offs/Changes in Game Plan/Personnel Usage Its been years since I have done anything like this here so please bear with me. I have commented here about the recent change in personnel usage and game plan. Then when I was talking with a friend who is a Raiders fan, he doesnt see the Saints often, his comment was "I felt like the Saints were holding back in case they saw them again in the playoffs". He is a pretty sharp cat so that made me think my hunch might be worth some research to see if there was actually a trend and not just me reading into something. Atlanta - No points by Thomas/Kamara/Ingram (The players responsible for I am sure over 80% of our points this season. Taysom Hill - 4-6 carriers per game was the norm for him this season. 2 against Atlanta, 0 Against Dallas. Dallas - Opened with three passing plays. Nearly every game this season I remember seeing at least two rushing plays in the first possession. 4th and goal, Kamara up the middle instead of stringing it out to play on his strengths? Ingram is our up the middle goal line back. Sean is in SB run mode and while I wouldn't say he is holding back, he is limiting tape and exposure to what he plans on turning loose in the playoffs. There is no denying that we were flat, I just think Sean is prepping for playoffs. 2009 was a similar season we lost in similar fashion to Dallas and ended up 13-3. saintfan, jnormand, leilung and 4 others like this.
	It's not what you look at that matters, it's what you see. ~ Henry David Thoreau

11-30-2018, 09:34 PM	#3
saintfan Donated Plasma Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: San Francisco, CA Posts: 18,556 Blog Entries: 5	Re: Play Offs/Changes in Game Plan/Personnel Usage Definitely looked like a different team, and it wasn't just that we looked flat, we looked..well..different. Maybe you're on to something. I like it better than some of the conspiracy theories, that's for sure. Rugby Saint II and 73Saint like this.

11-30-2018, 11:34 PM	#4
The Dude 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 9,006	Re: Play Offs/Changes in Game Plan/Personnel Usage Idk I find it hard to believe he would hold back many plays when the number 1 seed on the line. He has limited Taysoms role because teams are starting to figure him out. in Taysoms case maybe he is keeping one or two plays up his sleeve. He’s done enough damage to where teams are forced to respect him when he is in. He’s let teams know what he’s got in Taysom. As for Kamara and Thomas I think teams are just finding ways to limit them. He knew it would happen eventually hence the signing of Bryant and Marshall. I think Payton would be more likely to save trickery rather than doing something like Kamara up the middle. That was just a bad play call against a team that had the defensive momentum as well as balls bouncing their way. Should have gone for 3 given the way the game was shaking out at that point. I think a healthy Armstead could have greatly changed the outcome of that game. On another note in spite of the way we played that ****ty call where they were given the first down when they were obviously a yard short pisses me off. Drew absolutely thrives on drives like we would have had. I have zero doubt we would have scored. None. leilung, Rugby Saint II and K Major like this.
The Dude 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 9,006	"Where life had no value, death, sometimes, had its price. That is why the bounty killers appeared."

12-01-2018, 08:01 AM	#5
TheOak 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Cypress Tx. Posts: 18,978	Re: Play Offs/Changes in Game Plan/Personnel Usage Originally Posted by The Dude Idk I find it hard to believe he would hold back many plays when the number 1 seed on the line. He has limited Taysoms role because teams are starting to figure him out. in Taysoms case maybe he is keeping one or two plays up his sleeve. He’s done enough damage to where teams are forced to respect him when he is in. He’s let teams know what he’s got in Taysom. As for Kamara and Thomas I think teams are just finding ways to limit them. He knew it would happen eventually hence the signing of Bryant and Marshall. I think Payton would be more likely to save trickery rather than doing something like Kamara up the middle. That was just a bad play call against a team that had the defensive momentum as well as balls bouncing their way. Should have gone for 3 given the way the game was shaking out at that point. I think a healthy Armstead could have greatly changed the outcome of that game. On another note in spite of the way we played that ****ty call where they were given the first down when they were obviously a yard short pisses me off. Drew absolutely thrives on drives like we would have had. I have zero doubt we would have scored. None. With anything being possible, the question becomes “what is more plausible” 1. Sean Payton, the coach that squibbed the 1/2 time kick in a Super Bowl, coaches like a chess player and has a strategy which involves limiting tape? Or 2. The Atlanta Falcons defensive (29th Scoring D in the league) has figured out how to shut down Thomas and Kamara (some of the highest scoring players in the league) and keep them out of the end zone. I think your right

12-01-2018, 08:32 AM	#6
Beastmode 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Jul 2010 Posts: 9,126	Re: Play Offs/Changes in Game Plan/Personnel Usage He is focusing away from them. Tried to do it earlier in the season but with the RB fiasco, WR mess he could not do it. We loss but it's going to happen trying different things to improve the team. Think the first pass was to Kirkwood for example. Dallas won but they are actually not a diverse team and it's going to get them in the end. Those calls won't be there every game and Prescott trying to run on 3rd will be taken away along with Cooper. We exposed it but it was a little late.
Beastmode 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Jul 2010 Posts: 9,126

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11-30-2018, 08:10 PM	#2
ChrisXVI 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: Madison, WI Posts: 11,482	Re: Play Offs/Changes in Game Plan/Personnel Usage I think you’re spot on. Something wasn’t right. That wasn’t us.

12-03-2018, 04:51 PM	#7
Rugby Saint II Bounty Money $$$ Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: 5800 Airline Dr. Metairie, LA. Posts: 23,763	Re: Play Offs/Changes in Game Plan/Personnel Usage You really never know what you are going to get with Sean Payton....crazy mad scientist or just crazy head scratching play calls?

12-03-2018, 05:25 PM	#8
lumm0x Resident antediluvian Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 2,026	Re: Play Offs/Changes in Game Plan/Personnel Usage While I try not to be a conspiracy theorist I think there may be a speck of possibility in this. Looking at remaining schedules, the only likely opportunity for the Rams to lose may be against Chicago barring sitting players for the playoffs. It may be plausible that he is looking ahead at remaining games and thinking he can experiment a bit and as stated, maybe limit usable game film from these remaining games while still securing the #2 seed. I don't think he in any way fears a road game in LA as a possible eventuality. LA really has very little "home field advantage" when it comes to their stadium and fan base. Opposition fans tend to be 50/50 or better in there at games and it doesn't really equate to a LA benefit hosting like it does with many other teams in their house. I too feel like we played horribly flat and uninspired football on the offensive side of the ball. And as Brees said, never really hit a rhythm offensively and this may be due to trying to force the offense out of their comfort zone of play style. I'm sure he doesn't want to lose games and didn't anticipate it negatively impacting us the way it did. But I can consider that he was experimenting too much. I think he knows what we can and can't do and was bored. He essentially played with his food a little too much and it got away.

12-03-2018, 05:44 PM	#9
neugey Hu Dat! Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 6,606 Blog Entries: 13	Re: Play Offs/Changes in Game Plan/Personnel Usage Despite all the posturing by us fans and the football experts out there ... this game meant more to Dallas than it did to us. Now I'm not discounting home field throughout isn't important ... but we are mostly a shoo-in to win our division as compared to the Cowboys who have to worry more with the Redskins and Eagles so close to them. We can afford to hold back a little, Dallas not at all.

12-03-2018, 06:08 PM	#10
jeanpierre Site Donor 2018 Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Thibodaux Posts: 43,543 Blog Entries: 39	Re: Play Offs/Changes in Game Plan/Personnel Usage Twenty years ago, I'd wholeheartedly agree with that supposition - But with NFL expanded staffs and budgets today, digital footage, integrated analytic software, it really isn't a factor now... And many teams have staffs of 3-7 folks going through footage for the entire current season for upcoming opponents... Differing levels of commitment, but most players and coaches are not mailing the effort in, actually putting in the work, even with the support staff compiling the research for them... At the end of the day, great athletes that the Saints are, and even the coaching staff, coming off 5 road games in 7 weeks, 3 NFL Battle-Royales in Twelve Days, no matter the pride, they were fatigued/burnt-out...
	It's not that my way is the right way, I just make the right way my way...