Worst rule in football won’t change until it affects a championship game

K Major · 12-18-2018, 01:19 PM

Originally Posted by Euphoria

I don't blame TLL in that situation.

Your job is to put the ball in the end zone everytime you get it if you can. If he had scored no one would say boo about him reaching it over.

TommyLee has been a liability ever since camp. Nothing has changed. Extending the football like that was very careless on his part. Poor situational football but this was on Sean P play calling. Put the ball in the hands of your play makers.

Personally, I don't see why he was brought up from IR. He's a smaller version of Travis Cadet. Never been a fan of TLL but that's just me.

Saints defense bailed him out.

SaintsBro · 12-18-2018, 01:58 PM

Originally Posted by Euphoria

I don't blame TLL in that situation.

Your job is to put the ball in the end zone everytime you get it if you can. If he had scored no one would say boo about him reaching it over.

It happened and its over.

NORMALLY, yes I would agree with that. But in that situation, with the game on the line, you go down in bounds and run the clock and live to fight another day. The idea in that scenario was to eventually score but also use as much of the clock as possible. If we were behind on the scoreboard, I would have no problem with what TommyLee tried to do, it would just be one of those bad breaks for the offense and so what, you were behind, you tried your best, and you were gonna lose anyway. But in last night's situation, with the lead, in a low scoring game -- running the clock and guaranteeing that we get SOME points, are far more important. Situational awareness is part of the game.We could have even potentially gotten that first down and goal at the 1, and then taken a knee, four times, not needing to score anything at all.

bobdog86 · 12-18-2018, 02:03 PM

Originally Posted by SaintsBro

NORMALLY, yes I would agree with that. But in that situation, with the game on the line, you go down in bounds and run the clock and live to fight another day. The idea in that scenario was to eventually score but also use as much of the clock as possible. If we were behind on the scoreboard, I would have no problem with what TommyLee tried to do, it would just be one of those bad breaks for the offense and so what, you were behind, you tried your best, and you were gonna lose anyway. But in last night's situation, with the lead, in a low scoring game -- running the clock and guaranteeing that we get SOME points, are far more important. Situational awareness is part of the game.We could have even potentially gotten that first down and goal at the 1, and then taken a knee, four times, not needing to score anything at all.

BINGO! Did not need any heroism, or herculean effort there JUST a smart one.

Cruize · 12-18-2018, 02:26 PM

Didn't hate the play. Didn't hate TLL's effort. Agree with everyone who doesn't see TLL as anything special. The coach can out coach himself on occasion.

73Saint · 12-18-2018, 02:26 PM

Say what you want, it's hard for me to blame TLL for trying to win the game. Anyone in that situation, especially a younger guy trying to establish himself, I just can't heap too much negativity on him. Matter of fact, if I were Payton I would have had my arms around him in the locker room after the game, letting him know just that.

Euphoria · 12-18-2018, 07:07 PM

Originally Posted by SaintsBro

NORMALLY, yes I would agree with that. But in that situation, with the game on the line, you go down in bounds and run the clock and live to fight another day. The idea in that scenario was to eventually score but also use as much of the clock as possible. If we were behind on the scoreboard, I would have no problem with what TommyLee tried to do, it would just be one of those bad breaks for the offense and so what, you were behind, you tried your best, and you were gonna lose anyway. But in last night's situation, with the lead, in a low scoring game -- running the clock and guaranteeing that we get SOME points, are far more important. Situational awareness is part of the game.We could have even potentially gotten that first down and goal at the 1, and then taken a knee, four times, not needing to score anything at all.

If that was the case the play call would have been brees to run back until someone came to him then go to one knee. That wasn't the situation. We were going to need the first down to win or the TD.

So the situation was not that at all.

And nor the other 10 other players on the field was blocking to run out the clock. This was a coaching call and the right situation is to put the ball in the endzone.

Its all great to play Tuesday morning QB after the game but that wasn't the situation in the game.

Euphoria · 12-18-2018, 07:09 PM

Now back to the rule aspect of this...

If the other teams gets tackled in the back of their endzone its a 2 point saftey and they have to kick giving the other team the ball.

The penalty of the other team getting the ball is fair and equal actually.

SaintFanInATLHELL · 12-18-2018, 07:28 PM

Originally Posted by Euphoria

If that was the case the play call would have been brees to run back until someone came to him then go to one knee. That wasn't the situation. We were going to need the first down to win or the TD.

So the situation was not that at all.

And nor the other 10 other players on the field was blocking to run out the clock. This was a coaching call and the right situation is to put the ball in the endzone.

Its all great to play Tuesday morning QB after the game but that wasn't the situation in the game.

I have to disagree. The first down was much more crucial than the TD or the points in this instance. A first down inside the 1 ends the game.

There was a game this season where every fantasy owner of Gurley was ticked off because he took a knee at the end of the game instead of scoring a TD. The downs and the ability to run down the clock was more important than the points.

When there is one catastrophic outcome as opposed to multiple mild outcomes in relation, there's no way should the catastropic option be selected. One of a few things could have happened on the play:

1. TLL scores.
2. TLL gets the first down without scoring.
3. TLL doesn't get the first down.
4. TLL fumbles the ball with 4 possible outcomes:
a. Fumble out of bounds in the field of play
b. Fumble in bounds with TLL recovering
c. Fumble in bounds with Kitty recovery
d. FUMBLE THE BALL OUT THE END ZONE.

All of the first three are fine as is 4a and 4b. 4c isn't great but it would pin the Kitties inside the 1 yard line.

4d is really the only catastropic option. And that happens most likely by trying to extend the ball across the goal line. And unfortunately that's what TLL decided to do. At the position on the field he was when he was contacted, going down wins the game no matter the outcome with 4d being minimized.

As for Brees taking a knee, it wasn't the best option because there was no chance of getting a first down. There was still nearly 2 minutes left. This option guaranteed giving the Kitties the ball back. TLL getting a 1st down without scoring wins the game without the Kitties ever getting the ball back. Period.

Possession was 100 times more important than scoring in that instance. The first down was the way to retain possession. Scoring wasn't a necessary component.

SFIAH

SaintFanInATLHELL · 12-18-2018, 10:03 PM

Originally Posted by Euphoria

Now back to the rule aspect of this...

If the other teams gets tackled in the back of their endzone its a 2 point saftey and they have to kick giving the other team the ball.

The penalty of the other team getting the ball is fair and equal actually.

Have to disagree here too. There are two issues at play on both ends of the field with a fumble.

1. Who retains possession when the ball is fumbled out of bounds?
2. Where is the ball spotted?

The problem with the rule that we are discussing is the fact that there's only a single place on the field where possession of the ball changes when it goes out of bounds without recovery.

The safety makes sense because of the spot of the ball. The offense retains possession, but the spot of the ball is in the offense's end zone. A spot of the ball in the end zone is the definition of a safety. Note that the spot is different than a possession because a ball fumbled in the defenders' end zone possessed by the offense is in fact a TD. For example if TLL fumbled into the end zone and Thomas recovered it in the end zone, that would be a TD. Except that it wouldn't due to the 2 minute fumble rule below.

Now to the problematic rule. It's obvious that spotting the ball in the offense's end zone is the definition of a TD. So rewarding the offense with a TD on a fumble without possession is a terrible idea. However, the rule makes no sense because unlike anywhere else on the field, possession is lost by the offense even though the defense never possessed the ball. That's the first thing that needs to be turned off with the new rule. If the defense wants possession, then they need to possess the ball in the field of play. All fumbles out of bounds anywhere on the field should result in the fumbling team retaining possession of the ball.

Given that, the issue is the spot. There's already a spotting rule in place for the final 2 minutes of a half to prevent another Holy Roller Type play. Specifically (emphasis mine):

When there is a restricted recovery, that team gets the ball at either the spot of the fumble or the recovery, whichever is further back. If that spot is in a team’s own end zone, it is a safety.

I found it here: 1978: Holy Roller play revises rules – Football Zebras

So the same should happen when it rolls out of bounds. Bring it back to where it's fumbled since that's further back than the end zone. This should be the case everywhere on the field. So while the safety would still stand, as the end zone is further back than the fumble spot, at the other end of the field the ball should be spotted where it's fumbled if it goes out of bounds of the end zone.

Now personally I believe the offense should be heavily penalized for the action of fumbling out the end zone. But on the other hand they should not lose possession by default. The difference between this type of current touchback and others (kickoffs, punts, interceptions or recovered fumbles by the defense in the end zone field of play) is that with all of the others possession has already changed hands to the defenders.

So as for the penalty, something along the lines of grounding seems appropriate. Maybe a 15 yard penalty from the spot of the ball and a loss of down. The offense gets to keep the ball, but that penalty would be enough to keep players from making attempts to score without risk of losing the ball or losing field position or downs.

Just my two cents,

SFIAH

12-18-2018, 01:19 PM	#21
K Major Site Donor 2019 Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: Bedford, TX Posts: 24,622 Blog Entries: 3	Re: Worst rule in football won’t change until it affects a championship game Originally Posted by Euphoria I don't blame TLL in that situation. Your job is to put the ball in the end zone everytime you get it if you can. If he had scored no one would say boo about him reaching it over. TommyLee has been a liability ever since camp. Nothing has changed. Extending the football like that was very careless on his part. Poor situational football but this was on Sean P play calling. Put the ball in the hands of your play makers. Personally, I don't see why he was brought up from IR. He's a smaller version of Travis Cadet. Never been a fan of TLL but that's just me. Saints defense bailed him out.

12-18-2018, 01:58 PM	#22
SaintsBro Site Donor Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: in line with my ridiculous CLEAR PLASTIC BAG Posts: 3,650 Blog Entries: 3	Re: Worst rule in football won’t change until it affects a championship game Originally Posted by Euphoria I don't blame TLL in that situation. Your job is to put the ball in the end zone everytime you get it if you can. If he had scored no one would say boo about him reaching it over. It happened and its over. NORMALLY, yes I would agree with that. But in that situation, with the game on the line, you go down in bounds and run the clock and live to fight another day. The idea in that scenario was to eventually score but also use as much of the clock as possible. If we were behind on the scoreboard, I would have no problem with what TommyLee tried to do, it would just be one of those bad breaks for the offense and so what, you were behind, you tried your best, and you were gonna lose anyway. But in last night's situation, with the lead, in a low scoring game -- running the clock and guaranteeing that we get SOME points, are far more important. Situational awareness is part of the game.We could have even potentially gotten that first down and goal at the 1, and then taken a knee, four times, not needing to score anything at all. SaintFanInATLHELL, Rueben Mayes and K Major like this.

12-18-2018, 02:03 PM	#23
bobdog86 Site Donor Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: Washington State Posts: 1,414	Re: Worst rule in football won’t change until it affects a championship game Originally Posted by SaintsBro NORMALLY, yes I would agree with that. But in that situation, with the game on the line, you go down in bounds and run the clock and live to fight another day. The idea in that scenario was to eventually score but also use as much of the clock as possible. If we were behind on the scoreboard, I would have no problem with what TommyLee tried to do, it would just be one of those bad breaks for the offense and so what, you were behind, you tried your best, and you were gonna lose anyway. But in last night's situation, with the lead, in a low scoring game -- running the clock and guaranteeing that we get SOME points, are far more important. Situational awareness is part of the game.We could have even potentially gotten that first down and goal at the 1, and then taken a knee, four times, not needing to score anything at all. BINGO! Did not need any heroism, or herculean effort there JUST a smart one.

12-18-2018, 02:26 PM	#24
Cruize 1000 Posts + Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 4,457	Re: Worst rule in football won’t change until it affects a championship game Didn't hate the play. Didn't hate TLL's effort. Agree with everyone who doesn't see TLL as anything special. The coach can out coach himself on occasion.
Cruize 1000 Posts + Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 4,457

12-18-2018, 02:26 PM	#25
73Saint 1000 Posts + Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: NOLA Posts: 2,336	Re: Worst rule in football won’t change until it affects a championship game Say what you want, it's hard for me to blame TLL for trying to win the game. Anyone in that situation, especially a younger guy trying to establish himself, I just can't heap too much negativity on him. Matter of fact, if I were Payton I would have had my arms around him in the locker room after the game, letting him know just that.

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12-18-2018, 07:07 PM	#26
Euphoria 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Hollywood, CA Posts: 7,601 Blog Entries: 5	Re: Worst rule in football won’t change until it affects a championship game Originally Posted by SaintsBro NORMALLY, yes I would agree with that. But in that situation, with the game on the line, you go down in bounds and run the clock and live to fight another day. The idea in that scenario was to eventually score but also use as much of the clock as possible. If we were behind on the scoreboard, I would have no problem with what TommyLee tried to do, it would just be one of those bad breaks for the offense and so what, you were behind, you tried your best, and you were gonna lose anyway. But in last night's situation, with the lead, in a low scoring game -- running the clock and guaranteeing that we get SOME points, are far more important. Situational awareness is part of the game.We could have even potentially gotten that first down and goal at the 1, and then taken a knee, four times, not needing to score anything at all. If that was the case the play call would have been brees to run back until someone came to him then go to one knee. That wasn't the situation. We were going to need the first down to win or the TD. So the situation was not that at all. And nor the other 10 other players on the field was blocking to run out the clock. This was a coaching call and the right situation is to put the ball in the endzone. Its all great to play Tuesday morning QB after the game but that wasn't the situation in the game.
	E U P H O R I A

12-18-2018, 07:09 PM	#27
Euphoria 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Hollywood, CA Posts: 7,601 Blog Entries: 5	Re: Worst rule in football won’t change until it affects a championship game Now back to the rule aspect of this... If the other teams gets tackled in the back of their endzone its a 2 point saftey and they have to kick giving the other team the ball. The penalty of the other team getting the ball is fair and equal actually.

12-18-2018, 07:28 PM	#28
SaintFanInATLHELL The Professor Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Lithonia, GA Posts: 2,776	Re: Worst rule in football won’t change until it affects a championship game Originally Posted by Euphoria If that was the case the play call would have been brees to run back until someone came to him then go to one knee. That wasn't the situation. We were going to need the first down to win or the TD. So the situation was not that at all. And nor the other 10 other players on the field was blocking to run out the clock. This was a coaching call and the right situation is to put the ball in the endzone. Its all great to play Tuesday morning QB after the game but that wasn't the situation in the game. I have to disagree. The first down was much more crucial than the TD or the points in this instance. A first down inside the 1 ends the game. There was a game this season where every fantasy owner of Gurley was ticked off because he took a knee at the end of the game instead of scoring a TD. The downs and the ability to run down the clock was more important than the points. When there is one catastrophic outcome as opposed to multiple mild outcomes in relation, there's no way should the catastropic option be selected. One of a few things could have happened on the play: 1. TLL scores. 2. TLL gets the first down without scoring. 3. TLL doesn't get the first down. 4. TLL fumbles the ball with 4 possible outcomes: a. Fumble out of bounds in the field of play b. Fumble in bounds with TLL recovering c. Fumble in bounds with Kitty recovery d. FUMBLE THE BALL OUT THE END ZONE. All of the first three are fine as is 4a and 4b. 4c isn't great but it would pin the Kitties inside the 1 yard line. 4d is really the only catastropic option. And that happens most likely by trying to extend the ball across the goal line. And unfortunately that's what TLL decided to do. At the position on the field he was when he was contacted, going down wins the game no matter the outcome with 4d being minimized. As for Brees taking a knee, it wasn't the best option because there was no chance of getting a first down. There was still nearly 2 minutes left. This option guaranteed giving the Kitties the ball back. TLL getting a 1st down without scoring wins the game without the Kitties ever getting the ball back. Period. Possession was 100 times more important than scoring in that instance. The first down was the way to retain possession. Scoring wasn't a necessary component. SFIAH Budsdrinker and Rueben Mayes like this.
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12-18-2018, 10:03 PM	#29
SaintFanInATLHELL The Professor Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Lithonia, GA Posts: 2,776	Re: Worst rule in football won’t change until it affects a championship game Originally Posted by Euphoria Now back to the rule aspect of this... If the other teams gets tackled in the back of their endzone its a 2 point saftey and they have to kick giving the other team the ball. The penalty of the other team getting the ball is fair and equal actually. Have to disagree here too. There are two issues at play on both ends of the field with a fumble. 1. Who retains possession when the ball is fumbled out of bounds? 2. Where is the ball spotted? The problem with the rule that we are discussing is the fact that there's only a single place on the field where possession of the ball changes when it goes out of bounds without recovery. The safety makes sense because of the spot of the ball. The offense retains possession, but the spot of the ball is in the offense's end zone. A spot of the ball in the end zone is the definition of a safety. Note that the spot is different than a possession because a ball fumbled in the defenders' end zone possessed by the offense is in fact a TD. For example if TLL fumbled into the end zone and Thomas recovered it in the end zone, that would be a TD. Except that it wouldn't due to the 2 minute fumble rule below. Now to the problematic rule. It's obvious that spotting the ball in the offense's end zone is the definition of a TD. So rewarding the offense with a TD on a fumble without possession is a terrible idea. However, the rule makes no sense because unlike anywhere else on the field, possession is lost by the offense even though the defense never possessed the ball. That's the first thing that needs to be turned off with the new rule. If the defense wants possession, then they need to possess the ball in the field of play. All fumbles out of bounds anywhere on the field should result in the fumbling team retaining possession of the ball. Given that, the issue is the spot. There's already a spotting rule in place for the final 2 minutes of a half to prevent another Holy Roller Type play. Specifically (emphasis mine): When there is a restricted recovery, that team gets the ball at either the spot of the fumble or the recovery, whichever is further back. If that spot is in a team’s own end zone, it is a safety. I found it here: 1978: Holy Roller play revises rules – Football Zebras So the same should happen when it rolls out of bounds. Bring it back to where it's fumbled since that's further back than the end zone. This should be the case everywhere on the field. So while the safety would still stand, as the end zone is further back than the fumble spot, at the other end of the field the ball should be spotted where it's fumbled if it goes out of bounds of the end zone. Now personally I believe the offense should be heavily penalized for the action of fumbling out the end zone. But on the other hand they should not lose possession by default. The difference between this type of current touchback and others (kickoffs, punts, interceptions or recovered fumbles by the defense in the end zone field of play) is that with all of the others possession has already changed hands to the defenders. So as for the penalty, something along the lines of grounding seems appropriate. Maybe a 15 yard penalty from the spot of the ball and a loss of down. The offense gets to keep the ball, but that penalty would be enough to keep players from making attempts to score without risk of losing the ball or losing field position or downs. Just my two cents, SFIAH Budsdrinker, SmashMouth and Rueben Mayes like this.
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