NOTES, QUOTES

LordOfEntropy · 06-27-2005, 02:05 PM

Hm. He will play one, maybe two years of that contract. He won't play three - no way. He and DT are the weakest points on our defense, IMO.

I read earlier that they're only planning on playing him on running downs, i.e. blitzing him or cheating him up into the box. He's already lost his slot on nickel and dime packages.

WhoDat · 06-27-2005, 02:59 PM

Originally Posted by saintswhodi

You'll eat those words in December chump! LOL

We'll see who's eating what words when. And since I will be eating them in December, and the playoffs start in January, I am to assume from that statement we will not be in the playoffs again, thus having Howard here made no difference, and therefore we should have traded him. :P

Tisk, tisk. You know what they say about assumptions Whodi.

December, if memory serves, is when the Pro Bowl balloting ends and the Pro Bowlers are announced.

Regardless, Howard will be valuable this season and you'll thank me for keeping him on this team. LOL

saintswhodi · 06-27-2005, 03:30 PM

Tisk, tisk. You know what they say about assumptions Whodi.

December, if memory serves, is when the Pro Bowl balloting ends and the Pro Bowlers are announced. Regardless, Howard will be valuable this season and you'll thank me for keeping him on this team. LOL

So in effect, it doesn't matter if we make the playoffs or not, as long as Howard makes the pro bowl, which he never has, you will feel vindicated? Glad to see your priorities are in order Who.

WhoDat · 06-27-2005, 08:01 PM

So Pro Bowl players don't help a team go to the playoffs? If the Saints don't make the playoffs this season it will be Darren Howards fault? Didn't you want to trade him for a draft pick and to clear cap space to sign Bentley, Deuce, McKenzie, etc. to long-term deals? Doesn't that represent FUTURE VALUE to the team? Those things wouldn't have helped this year anyway, would they?

Now who is making the assumptions?

saintswhodi · 06-27-2005, 08:22 PM

So Pro Bowl players don't help a team go to the playoffs?

Why don't we ask Deuce, Joe, and LeCharles? They made the pro bowl previously, no playoffs. How many pro bowlers did NE have last year? Not many I think.

If the Saints don't make the playoffs this season it will be Darren Howards fault?

Who's trying to lay fault? If he is here, makes the pro bowl, but we don't go the the playoffs, who gives a crap that he made the pro bowl? I sure as hell don't. I would rather have no pro bowlers and make the playoffs than have 22 pro bowlers and be sitting at home.

Didn't you want to trade him for a draft pick and to clear cap space to sign Bentley, Deuce, McKenzie, etc. to long-term deals?

Um, yes, to trade him for a draft pick in this year's draft. Unless you don't think Fincher or Brown or Bullocks will help at all, then a pick wouldn't have helped us. I happen to think all of them may help us some this year, and an extra second rounder or first rounder would have brought more help.

Doesn't that represent FUTURE VALUE to the team? Those things wouldn't have helped this year anyway, would they?

Yes future as in this season if you count Brown, Bullocks, and Finch. Another high second or low first prob would have brought another player who could help this year. But as long as Howard makes the pro bowl, I guess it's all worth it, screw a team goal.

Now who is making the assumptions?

I stopped making assumptions and just started reading what was there, and I am appalled.

WhoDat · 06-27-2005, 08:34 PM

Whodi, what are you trying to prove?

I would rather have zero Pro Bowlers and go to the Playoffs also. My point is simply that Howard, in my estimation, is going to play well this year. I like players who play well. I can't ask anything more of a player than to be amongst the top 5 or 6 at his position in a league. If the team doesn't go to the playoffs, I'm sure that it will all be Howard's fault. But if we make the playoffs and Howard plays well, I wonder what you'll say.

saintswhodi · 06-27-2005, 09:59 PM

My point is simply that Howard, in my estimation, is going to play well this year.

Considering he hasn't been healthy for a full season either of the last two years, this should be revised to "will play well if he is able to be on the field."

But if we make the playoffs and Howard plays well, I wonder what you'll say.

To continue the thought, I am sure Howard will play well when he is on the field cause he has his whole career. I like the guy. I don't like his salary cap figure, and I think you have had a hard time discovering the difference between those two things. He played well last year, no playoffs. He has played well since he has been here. I don't think whether Howard plays well or not will be the deciding factor in us making the playoffs. Grant makes more tackles and Smith forces more turnovers. AB has the biggest role in us making the playoffs. If he plays well, we are in, and whatever Howard does isn't gonna influence that more than what anyone else on the defense does, sorry to say.

saintz08 · 06-28-2005, 12:09 AM

Considering he hasn't been healthy for a full season either of the last two years, this should be revised to "will play well if he is able to be on the field."

Damn , you beat me to saying that ........

I really do not see boo boo boy making it through the season healthy .Trade Howard for a 12 pack and future consideration on a lap dance and get this drama over with . Another disaster of the Hasbeen era , they should have packaged Howard to someone for a chance at someone who can plug the holes at the linebacker position . O.J. Simpson could get a 100 yards on the Saints if he suited up tomorrow for someone .The Saints are loaded with perimeter talent to put pressure on the quarterback , but opposing teams do not need to pass because of the huge holes in the middle .

WhoDat · 06-28-2005, 10:14 AM

Wait a second.

Never did I dispute the fact that the Saints need to upgrade at DT or LB. I've been screaming that for years. Nor did I say that the Saints should not trade Darren Howard. I said that they SHOULD trade him IF they can get fair market value. The team should not give away good players simply to free up space for other players already under contract, IMO.

It is not the best situation, I won't dispute that for a second. However, suggesting that having three very talented DEs is a bad thing is just assinine. Sure, having two talented DEs and one talented DTs is better, but c'mon.

This offseason, though not great, was IMO, one of the better in recent Saints history. Yes, again they failed miserably at addressing glaring needs in the middle of the defense with proven talented veterans. However, for once, I don't think that they made a bad signing. I also think that the team attempted to upgrade at MLB and players went elsewhere. As for Howard, if it's a choice between an insufficent deal that frees up space and keeping the guy, I say keep the guy. Simply b/c that's not the best option, or the option you wanted, does not mean that the guy won't play well this year. I think he will, and yes, I know all about his history with injuries... but then, how often in the last 5 years was he playing in a rotation with two other guys just as talented as he is?

saintswhodi · 06-28-2005, 11:11 AM

but then, how often in the last 5 years was he playing in a rotation with two other guys just as talented as he is?

First time was last year, and he got hurt. But draw your own conclusions from that.

Simply b/c that's not the best option, or the option you wanted, does not mean that the guy won't play well this year

Did I say he wouldn't play well when/if he was on the field? Nope. I said he would. The question is how much will he be on the field.

As for Howard, if it's a choice between an insufficent deal that frees up space and keeping the guy, I say keep the guy.

Well, when that deal keeps LeCharles Bentley from hitting the open market, gets us SOMETHING for a player we will get nothing for next year, and allows us to pay the cornerstone of our offense what he should be paid, as well as allows us to pay the best CB in club history what we promised him when we traded for him and he shetup and just played, I don't think any deal is insufficient. But we can also take the myopic "oh, we only got a second for Howard" view too if you want. Doesn't work for me.

However, suggesting that having three very talented DEs is a bad thing is just assinine.

Who suggested that? What did you say before about assumptions?

I said that they SHOULD trade him IF they can get fair market value. The team should not give away good players simply to free up space for other players already under contract, IMO.

Okay, then you agree to trade him for a second, cause market value for even stud RBs is a third or lower, see Edge James and Shaun Alexander and Trav Henry, ACTUAL pro bowlers. Colts said they would take a 3rd for Edge, no takers. A proven pro bowl stud. So what's your fair market value? The market was set, and you still poo-pooed any trade talk cause it wasn't YOUR market value for Howard. So when you say fair market value, you mean what WhoDat considers fair market value and not what the league considers fair market value right? Noone took Trevor Pryce off Denver's hands last year, a PROVEN pro bowler and a better player than Howard. So where is fair market value set?

06-27-2005, 02:59 PM	#12
WhoDat 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 5,631	Originally Posted by saintswhodi You'll eat those words in December chump! LOL We'll see who's eating what words when. And since I will be eating them in December, and the playoffs start in January, I am to assume from that statement we will not be in the playoffs again, thus having Howard here made no difference, and therefore we should have traded him. :P Tisk, tisk. You know what they say about assumptions Whodi. December, if memory serves, is when the Pro Bowl balloting ends and the Pro Bowlers are announced. Regardless, Howard will be valuable this season and you'll thank me for keeping him on this team. LOL
WhoDat 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 5,631	\"Excuses, excuses, excuses. ThatÃ¢Â€Â™s all anyone ever makes for the New Orleans SaintsÃ¢Â€Â™ organization.\" - Eric Narcisse \"Being a Saints fan is almost like being addicted to crack,\" he said.[i]\"You know you should stop, but you just can\'t.\"

06-27-2005, 03:30 PM	#13
saintswhodi 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: San Antonio, TX Posts: 6,941	Tisk, tisk. You know what they say about assumptions Whodi. December, if memory serves, is when the Pro Bowl balloting ends and the Pro Bowlers are announced. Regardless, Howard will be valuable this season and you'll thank me for keeping him on this team. LOL So in effect, it doesn't matter if we make the playoffs or not, as long as Howard makes the pro bowl, which he never has, you will feel vindicated? Glad to see your priorities are in order Who.

06-27-2005, 08:01 PM	#14
WhoDat 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 5,631	So Pro Bowl players don't help a team go to the playoffs? If the Saints don't make the playoffs this season it will be Darren Howards fault? Didn't you want to trade him for a draft pick and to clear cap space to sign Bentley, Deuce, McKenzie, etc. to long-term deals? Doesn't that represent FUTURE VALUE to the team? Those things wouldn't have helped this year anyway, would they? Now who is making the assumptions?
WhoDat 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 5,631

06-27-2005, 08:22 PM	#15
saintswhodi 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: San Antonio, TX Posts: 6,941	So Pro Bowl players don't help a team go to the playoffs? Why don't we ask Deuce, Joe, and LeCharles? They made the pro bowl previously, no playoffs. How many pro bowlers did NE have last year? Not many I think. If the Saints don't make the playoffs this season it will be Darren Howards fault? Who's trying to lay fault? If he is here, makes the pro bowl, but we don't go the the playoffs, who gives a crap that he made the pro bowl? I sure as hell don't. I would rather have no pro bowlers and make the playoffs than have 22 pro bowlers and be sitting at home. Didn't you want to trade him for a draft pick and to clear cap space to sign Bentley, Deuce, McKenzie, etc. to long-term deals? Um, yes, to trade him for a draft pick in this year's draft. Unless you don't think Fincher or Brown or Bullocks will help at all, then a pick wouldn't have helped us. I happen to think all of them may help us some this year, and an extra second rounder or first rounder would have brought more help. Doesn't that represent FUTURE VALUE to the team? Those things wouldn't have helped this year anyway, would they? Yes future as in this season if you count Brown, Bullocks, and Finch. Another high second or low first prob would have brought another player who could help this year. But as long as Howard makes the pro bowl, I guess it's all worth it, screw a team goal. Now who is making the assumptions? I stopped making assumptions and just started reading what was there, and I am appalled.

06-27-2005, 08:34 PM	#16
WhoDat 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 5,631	Whodi, what are you trying to prove? I would rather have zero Pro Bowlers and go to the Playoffs also. My point is simply that Howard, in my estimation, is going to play well this year. I like players who play well. I can't ask anything more of a player than to be amongst the top 5 or 6 at his position in a league. If the team doesn't go to the playoffs, I'm sure that it will all be Howard's fault. But if we make the playoffs and Howard plays well, I wonder what you'll say.
WhoDat 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 5,631	\"Excuses, excuses, excuses. ThatÃ¢Â€Â™s all anyone ever makes for the New Orleans SaintsÃ¢Â€Â™ organization.\" - Eric Narcisse \"Being a Saints fan is almost like being addicted to crack,\" he said.[i]\"You know you should stop, but you just can\'t.\"

06-27-2005, 02:05 PM	#11
LordOfEntropy 1000 Posts + Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Cary, NC Posts: 1,838	Hm. He will play one, maybe two years of that contract. He won't play three - no way. He and DT are the weakest points on our defense, IMO. I read earlier that they're only planning on playing him on running downs, i.e. blitzing him or cheating him up into the box. He's already lost his slot on nickel and dime packages.

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06-27-2005, 09:59 PM	#17
saintswhodi 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: San Antonio, TX Posts: 6,941	My point is simply that Howard, in my estimation, is going to play well this year. Considering he hasn't been healthy for a full season either of the last two years, this should be revised to "will play well if he is able to be on the field." But if we make the playoffs and Howard plays well, I wonder what you'll say. To continue the thought, I am sure Howard will play well when he is on the field cause he has his whole career. I like the guy. I don't like his salary cap figure, and I think you have had a hard time discovering the difference between those two things. He played well last year, no playoffs. He has played well since he has been here. I don't think whether Howard plays well or not will be the deciding factor in us making the playoffs. Grant makes more tackles and Smith forces more turnovers. AB has the biggest role in us making the playoffs. If he plays well, we are in, and whatever Howard does isn't gonna influence that more than what anyone else on the defense does, sorry to say.

06-28-2005, 12:09 AM	#18
saintz08 1000 Posts + Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 3,020	Considering he hasn't been healthy for a full season either of the last two years, this should be revised to "will play well if he is able to be on the field." Damn , you beat me to saying that ........ I really do not see boo boo boy making it through the season healthy .Trade Howard for a 12 pack and future consideration on a lap dance and get this drama over with . Another disaster of the Hasbeen era , they should have packaged Howard to someone for a chance at someone who can plug the holes at the linebacker position . O.J. Simpson could get a 100 yards on the Saints if he suited up tomorrow for someone .The Saints are loaded with perimeter talent to put pressure on the quarterback , but opposing teams do not need to pass because of the huge holes in the middle .
saintz08 1000 Posts + Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 3,020

06-28-2005, 10:14 AM	#19
WhoDat 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 5,631	Wait a second. Never did I dispute the fact that the Saints need to upgrade at DT or LB. I've been screaming that for years. Nor did I say that the Saints should not trade Darren Howard. I said that they SHOULD trade him IF they can get fair market value. The team should not give away good players simply to free up space for other players already under contract, IMO. It is not the best situation, I won't dispute that for a second. However, suggesting that having three very talented DEs is a bad thing is just assinine. Sure, having two talented DEs and one talented DTs is better, but c'mon. This offseason, though not great, was IMO, one of the better in recent Saints history. Yes, again they failed miserably at addressing glaring needs in the middle of the defense with proven talented veterans. However, for once, I don't think that they made a bad signing. I also think that the team attempted to upgrade at MLB and players went elsewhere. As for Howard, if it's a choice between an insufficent deal that frees up space and keeping the guy, I say keep the guy. Simply b/c that's not the best option, or the option you wanted, does not mean that the guy won't play well this year. I think he will, and yes, I know all about his history with injuries... but then, how often in the last 5 years was he playing in a rotation with two other guys just as talented as he is?
WhoDat 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 5,631	\"Excuses, excuses, excuses. ThatÃ¢Â€Â™s all anyone ever makes for the New Orleans SaintsÃ¢Â€Â™ organization.\" - Eric Narcisse \"Being a Saints fan is almost like being addicted to crack,\" he said.[i]\"You know you should stop, but you just can\'t.\"

06-28-2005, 11:11 AM	#20
saintswhodi 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: San Antonio, TX Posts: 6,941	but then, how often in the last 5 years was he playing in a rotation with two other guys just as talented as he is? First time was last year, and he got hurt. But draw your own conclusions from that. Simply b/c that's not the best option, or the option you wanted, does not mean that the guy won't play well this year Did I say he wouldn't play well when/if he was on the field? Nope. I said he would. The question is how much will he be on the field. As for Howard, if it's a choice between an insufficent deal that frees up space and keeping the guy, I say keep the guy. Well, when that deal keeps LeCharles Bentley from hitting the open market, gets us SOMETHING for a player we will get nothing for next year, and allows us to pay the cornerstone of our offense what he should be paid, as well as allows us to pay the best CB in club history what we promised him when we traded for him and he shetup and just played, I don't think any deal is insufficient. But we can also take the myopic "oh, we only got a second for Howard" view too if you want. Doesn't work for me. However, suggesting that having three very talented DEs is a bad thing is just assinine. Who suggested that? What did you say before about assumptions? I said that they SHOULD trade him IF they can get fair market value. The team should not give away good players simply to free up space for other players already under contract, IMO. Okay, then you agree to trade him for a second, cause market value for even stud RBs is a third or lower, see Edge James and Shaun Alexander and Trav Henry, ACTUAL pro bowlers. Colts said they would take a 3rd for Edge, no takers. A proven pro bowl stud. So what's your fair market value? The market was set, and you still poo-pooed any trade talk cause it wasn't YOUR market value for Howard. So when you say fair market value, you mean what WhoDat considers fair market value and not what the league considers fair market value right? Noone took Trevor Pryce off Denver's hands last year, a PROVEN pro bowler and a better player than Howard. So where is fair market value set?