Why is Lattimore Slipping?

K Major · 09-24-2019, 04:20 PM

Originally Posted by ChrisXVI

Lattimore blames it on playing more zone. I’m not sure I buy that being the issue. If it’s cover 3 he’s still getting beat in his third of the field.

Sounds like similar issues with Ramsey (in addition to wanting more money) as of late. Through 3 weeks of play, we rank 30th against the pass & last year it was close to dead last. Those dawgs on the D line are doing their job. Coach Allen needs to put his play makers in better position to succeed. You know ... just how Sean P and Carmichael did with Teddy B. Game plan around his strengths.

I refuse to believe Lattimore, Williams, Apple can be this bad on the back end.

We must improve in the secondary. No excuses.

ChrisXVI · 09-24-2019, 04:37 PM

Originally Posted by K Major

Sounds like similar issues with Ramsey (in addition to wanting more money) as of late. Through 3 weeks of play, we rank 30th against the pass & last year it was close to dead last. Those dawgs on the D line are doing their job. Coach Allen needs to put his play makers in better position to succeed.

I refuse to believe Lattimore, Williams, Apple can be this bad on the back end.

We must improve in the secondary. No excuses.

People are saying that we’ve probably played a lot more zone so far this season because of the offenses we’ve faced. Watson and Wilson have mobility and escapability so Dennis Allen wanted our DB’s to keep things in front of them. I can understand that thinking. The problem is that we have press-man CB’s. I would expect to see more struggles in zone coverage against the Cowboys.

WhoDat!656 · 09-25-2019, 07:35 AM

Saints Film Room: What’s going on with Marshon Lattimore and New Orleans’ defensive backs?

https://theathletic.com/1237044/

rezburna · 09-25-2019, 08:07 AM

I always hated zone growing up. I wanted to play man coverage all game. I always felt like zone took away some of your aggression. When I got to high school that’s all they wanted to play. It was either Cover 3 or Cover 6; deep thirds or the flats. The thing about zone, there’s thinking involved. Let’s say they run a smash concept and I’m in a Cover 2/Flats shell, technically I’m supposed to come up and stop the curl but also make it harder to throw the corner by squeezing the window down. So what if I see the corner route flash open because the safety was late so I leave the curl wide open? What if I choose the curl and the safety gets beat for the corner? Zone is just different and you’re relying SO heavily on your teammates to do their job. They can really make you look bad. Obviously our players want to play freely and fly around. I don’t blame them.

st thomas · 09-25-2019, 08:24 AM

Originally Posted by rezburna

I always hated zone growing up. I wanted to play man coverage all game. I always felt like zone took away some of your aggression. When I got to high school that’s all they wanted to play. It was either Cover 3 or Cover 6; deep thirds or the flats. The thing about zone, there’s thinking involved. Let’s say they run a smash concept and I’m in a Cover 2/Flats shell, technically I’m supposed to come up and stop the curl but also make it harder to throw the corner by squeezing the window down. So what if I see the corner route flash open because the safety was late so I leave the curl wide open? What if I choose the curl and the safety gets beat for the corner? Zone is just different and you’re relying SO heavily on your teammates to do their job. They can really make you look bad. Obviously our players want to play freely and fly around. I don’t blame them.

Rez get out there and coach his asre up

ChrisXVI · 09-25-2019, 10:21 AM

Originally Posted by rezburna

I always hated zone growing up. I wanted to play man coverage all game. I always felt like zone took away some of your aggression. When I got to high school that’s all they wanted to play. It was either Cover 3 or Cover 6; deep thirds or the flats. The thing about zone, there’s thinking involved. Let’s say they run a smash concept and I’m in a Cover 2/Flats shell, technically I’m supposed to come up and stop the curl but also make it harder to throw the corner by squeezing the window down. So what if I see the corner route flash open because the safety was late so I leave the curl wide open? What if I choose the curl and the safety gets beat for the corner? Zone is just different and you’re relying SO heavily on your teammates to do their job. They can really make you look bad. Obviously our players want to play freely and fly around. I don’t blame them.

Rez, I really hope you’ll consider sharing more insight about what you see with our secondary. It’s fun reading your more in-depth breakdowns.

rezburna · 09-25-2019, 11:04 AM

Well guys, all I can say is people just need to be where they’re supposed to be in zone. If you’re in deep thirds then get back. Don’t worry about the curls and the comebacks. That kept me in trouble early on until I realized my responsibility was to not get beat deep. From that point on I never did. I just kept it all in front of me. Linebackers are supposed to get out there underneath curls and patrol the flats. Strong Safety and MLB sits on slants. Just don’t get beat deep.

Cover 3 is a bend but don’t break defense as it is and we run it a lot because it looks similar to Cover 1 pre snap (single high safety). For some reason we like that single high safety look with Williams patrolling the entire back end. I don’t think he really has that kind of range and athleticism but whatever. I just don’t think we have the right personnel to run the scheme Allen wants to run. If he wanted to run Cover 3 and Cover 1 they should have spent all their free agency money on Earl Thomas or kick the tires on Eric Berry. We also don’t have good coverage linebackers. We have run stuffers.

Rugby Saint II · 09-25-2019, 12:30 PM

That's some great insight rez. The one thing I know about zone coverage is that with coach Payton scheming and Drew Brees throwing the ball we can slice the defenses in the seams. To me that is where the weakness is with zone coverage. Payton is a genius at clearing out zones and then having the players settle into the seam for a reception.

Rell&Gold · 09-25-2019, 12:39 PM

Originally Posted by K Major

Anzalone will be missed that is for certain.

Not the way he was playing to start the season no he won't. Now if last years ANZALONE was planning to show up then yeah he'll be missed but that guy seemed to take the wrong exit for the season

rezburna · 09-25-2019, 04:57 PM

Originally Posted by Rugby Saint II

That's some great insight rez. The one thing I know about zone coverage is that with coach Payton scheming and Drew Brees throwing the ball we can slice the defenses in the seams. To me that is where the weakness is with zone coverage. Payton is a genius at clearing out zones and then having the players settle into the seam for a reception.

The seams are wide open in the Cover 3, especially if your run 4 verticals. Cover 2 is open right down the middle as well as the corner route depending on if it’s sink or hard flats. Cover 4 should lock up the seams. Cover 6 can be vulnerable to the seams, so overall you’re right. A lot of coverages are weak there.

09-24-2019, 04:20 PM	#21
K Major Site Donor 2019 Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: Bedford, TX Posts: 24,838 Blog Entries: 3	Re: Why is Lattimore Slipping? Originally Posted by ChrisXVI Lattimore blames it on playing more zone. I’m not sure I buy that being the issue. If it’s cover 3 he’s still getting beat in his third of the field. Sounds like similar issues with Ramsey (in addition to wanting more money) as of late. Through 3 weeks of play, we rank 30th against the pass & last year it was close to dead last. Those dawgs on the D line are doing their job. Coach Allen needs to put his play makers in better position to succeed. You know ... just how Sean P and Carmichael did with Teddy B. Game plan around his strengths. I refuse to believe Lattimore, Williams, Apple can be this bad on the back end. We must improve in the secondary. No excuses. SmashMouth, ChrisXVI and darksoul35 like this.

09-24-2019, 04:37 PM	#22
ChrisXVI 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: Madison, WI Posts: 11,482	Re: Why is Lattimore Slipping? Originally Posted by K Major Sounds like similar issues with Ramsey (in addition to wanting more money) as of late. Through 3 weeks of play, we rank 30th against the pass & last year it was close to dead last. Those dawgs on the D line are doing their job. Coach Allen needs to put his play makers in better position to succeed. I refuse to believe Lattimore, Williams, Apple can be this bad on the back end. We must improve in the secondary. No excuses. People are saying that we’ve probably played a lot more zone so far this season because of the offenses we’ve faced. Watson and Wilson have mobility and escapability so Dennis Allen wanted our DB’s to keep things in front of them. I can understand that thinking. The problem is that we have press-man CB’s. I would expect to see more struggles in zone coverage against the Cowboys. SmashMouth and K Major like this.

09-25-2019, 07:35 AM	#23
WhoDat!656 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Shreveport,Louisiana Posts: 16,092	Re: Why is Lattimore Slipping? Saints Film Room: What’s going on with Marshon Lattimore and New Orleans’ defensive backs? https://theathletic.com/1237044/ SmashMouth likes this.

09-25-2019, 08:07 AM	#24
rezburna 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Feb 2013 Location: Kenner, LA Posts: 8,110	Re: Why is Lattimore Slipping? I always hated zone growing up. I wanted to play man coverage all game. I always felt like zone took away some of your aggression. When I got to high school that’s all they wanted to play. It was either Cover 3 or Cover 6; deep thirds or the flats. The thing about zone, there’s thinking involved. Let’s say they run a smash concept and I’m in a Cover 2/Flats shell, technically I’m supposed to come up and stop the curl but also make it harder to throw the corner by squeezing the window down. So what if I see the corner route flash open because the safety was late so I leave the curl wide open? What if I choose the curl and the safety gets beat for the corner? Zone is just different and you’re relying SO heavily on your teammates to do their job. They can really make you look bad. Obviously our players want to play freely and fly around. I don’t blame them. Rsanders24, Crusader, SmashMouth and 5 others like this.
	"The first need of a free people is to define their own terms.” - Stokely Carmichael

09-25-2019, 08:24 AM	#25
st thomas Site Donor 2018 Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: lafayette Posts: 7,753	Re: Why is Lattimore Slipping? Originally Posted by rezburna I always hated zone growing up. I wanted to play man coverage all game. I always felt like zone took away some of your aggression. When I got to high school that’s all they wanted to play. It was either Cover 3 or Cover 6; deep thirds or the flats. The thing about zone, there’s thinking involved. Let’s say they run a smash concept and I’m in a Cover 2/Flats shell, technically I’m supposed to come up and stop the curl but also make it harder to throw the corner by squeezing the window down. So what if I see the corner route flash open because the safety was late so I leave the curl wide open? What if I choose the curl and the safety gets beat for the corner? Zone is just different and you’re relying SO heavily on your teammates to do their job. They can really make you look bad. Obviously our players want to play freely and fly around. I don’t blame them. Rez get out there and coach his asre up rezburna likes this.

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09-25-2019, 10:21 AM	#26
ChrisXVI 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: Madison, WI Posts: 11,482	Re: Why is Lattimore Slipping? Originally Posted by rezburna I always hated zone growing up. I wanted to play man coverage all game. I always felt like zone took away some of your aggression. When I got to high school that’s all they wanted to play. It was either Cover 3 or Cover 6; deep thirds or the flats. The thing about zone, there’s thinking involved. Let’s say they run a smash concept and I’m in a Cover 2/Flats shell, technically I’m supposed to come up and stop the curl but also make it harder to throw the corner by squeezing the window down. So what if I see the corner route flash open because the safety was late so I leave the curl wide open? What if I choose the curl and the safety gets beat for the corner? Zone is just different and you’re relying SO heavily on your teammates to do their job. They can really make you look bad. Obviously our players want to play freely and fly around. I don’t blame them. Rez, I really hope you’ll consider sharing more insight about what you see with our secondary. It’s fun reading your more in-depth breakdowns. rezburna likes this.

09-25-2019, 11:04 AM	#27
rezburna 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Feb 2013 Location: Kenner, LA Posts: 8,110	Re: Why is Lattimore Slipping? Well guys, all I can say is people just need to be where they’re supposed to be in zone. If you’re in deep thirds then get back. Don’t worry about the curls and the comebacks. That kept me in trouble early on until I realized my responsibility was to not get beat deep. From that point on I never did. I just kept it all in front of me. Linebackers are supposed to get out there underneath curls and patrol the flats. Strong Safety and MLB sits on slants. Just don’t get beat deep. Cover 3 is a bend but don’t break defense as it is and we run it a lot because it looks similar to Cover 1 pre snap (single high safety). For some reason we like that single high safety look with Williams patrolling the entire back end. I don’t think he really has that kind of range and athleticism but whatever. I just don’t think we have the right personnel to run the scheme Allen wants to run. If he wanted to run Cover 3 and Cover 1 they should have spent all their free agency money on Earl Thomas or kick the tires on Eric Berry. We also don’t have good coverage linebackers. We have run stuffers. Rsanders24, ChrisXVI, Rell&Gold and 1 others like this.
	"The first need of a free people is to define their own terms.” - Stokely Carmichael

09-25-2019, 12:30 PM	#28
Rugby Saint II Bounty Money $$$ Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: 5800 Airline Dr. Metairie, LA. Posts: 24,167	Re: Why is Lattimore Slipping? That's some great insight rez. The one thing I know about zone coverage is that with coach Payton scheming and Drew Brees throwing the ball we can slice the defenses in the seams. To me that is where the weakness is with zone coverage. Payton is a genius at clearing out zones and then having the players settle into the seam for a reception.

09-25-2019, 12:39 PM	#29
Rell&Gold 1000 Posts + Join Date: Apr 2012 Location: Washington, D.C Posts: 2,891	Re: Why is Lattimore Slipping? Originally Posted by K Major Anzalone will be missed that is for certain. Not the way he was playing to start the season no he won't. Now if last years ANZALONE was planning to show up then yeah he'll be missed but that guy seemed to take the wrong exit for the season dizzle88 and MarchingOn like this.

09-25-2019, 04:57 PM	#30
rezburna 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Feb 2013 Location: Kenner, LA Posts: 8,110	Re: Why is Lattimore Slipping? Originally Posted by Rugby Saint II That's some great insight rez. The one thing I know about zone coverage is that with coach Payton scheming and Drew Brees throwing the ball we can slice the defenses in the seams. To me that is where the weakness is with zone coverage. Payton is a genius at clearing out zones and then having the players settle into the seam for a reception. The seams are wide open in the Cover 3, especially if your run 4 verticals. Cover 2 is open right down the middle as well as the corner route depending on if it’s sink or hard flats. Cover 4 should lock up the seams. Cover 6 can be vulnerable to the seams, so overall you’re right. A lot of coverages are weak there. Crusader, woody and Rugby Saint II like this.