Whodi - I'm going to try to make this easy. Apparently you don't think I understand English or something. I fully recognize the difference between an event already perceived and a prediction for the future. You seem to miss the point though.

People use statistical data to analyze past events. They then apply that analysis to present conditions to try to change and PREDICT (does using caps help you?) future outcomes. If you can show me another reasonable use for past statistical data, by all means, go ahead.

You seem to want to pigeon hole this debate in such a way by suggesting that I asked you to give me the number of yards, rec, tds, etc. that Joe Horn will have next year. I asked a simple question, where will the guy rank compared to other WR's in the league? I didn't say that you couldn't use a range. I didn't say that you had to be right on or give me his EXACT stats (again, just trying to use your words and capitalization - mayeb that will get the message through).

Your response to my question was in the top 32. To me that's either a cop out, or you think Horn will drop off significantly in production as compared to last season. I asked you which of those you are doing? Copping out or predicting Horn will drop off. Seeing your seemingly insurmountable problem with making predictions, I guess you were copping out.

Hey man, I understand why you're mad. You made a big deal about Horn's contract, which I told you was posturing and would work out fine. Then you said that we couldn't sign players long-term, let alone draft picks, with Howard's cap number - again, not so. Now you're claiming that you don't care about individual player performances so long as the team is winning, when all you do is sit around and argue about individual player performances. I can understand why you're upset.


To answer your questions, so that you don't moan about it, as ridiculous as they are, I offer the following:

1. Find anywhere where I ever said stats are irrelevant.

Please explain this statement Whodi:
Essentially, that reads that individual player performances (e.g. stats) are irrelevant to you so long as the team is winning. That's a statement most people agree with, but I am suggesting that it simply isn't true for you. Even if this team is winning you will still be concerned with stats. If that isn't the case, then, as I said before, I don't expect to hear anything negative from you so long as the team is winning this season.

2. Find anywhere where I predicted an EXACT future ranking for a player

I never suggested that you did. But good job changing the issue.

I would say nice try, but it wasn't. So your first argument WhoDat, was I said stats are irrelevant. Never in 3700 posts have I said that, so you had to move on. Your second argument I have no problems with the team, cause I won't predict an exact ranking. Which again was total BS. So now you have moved on to I am mad cause of an argument from months ago. That's the best you got? Seriously? You can't back up ANYHTING you have said in this thread so you have to attempt to make it seem to be something else? Nice try Whodini, I don't fall for the smoke and mirrors bit. You have NOTHING to back up this foolishness, and even made several posts asking me questions about what if these past stats happened, making the exact point I have been emphasizing for 11 posts now. THEN, to top that off, in a weak attempt to answer my 1 and 2 question, you take a sentence from an entire paragraph and try to work it as proving your point. Priceless. I will do this also using the last post you made.

I am leaning towards or something. See how that works? I took a snippet of what you said, and turned it into something else to prove my point. Essentially what you are saying here, is you are not sure if you understand English or something. Man, that was easy. A lesson from the WhoDat school of debate. When you have nothing, and when your own posts have proven the other person's point, take a snippet and make it fit your argument. SO since I have been making the same point the whole time, I am going to assume you only understand or something, and not English, since that's what you said. That was prize worthy WhoDat. Bravo.

LOL. Oh, so now I'm taking your comments out of context, is that it? Laughable.

Who cares if Joe's stats are best in the league if the team isn't winning?
Screw the "small" stuff? What is the small stuff Whodi? Individual accomplishments - that would make sense seeing as how we were talking about just that.
Other than that (10-6 or better and making the playoffs), it doesn't really matter.

I'm taking those comments out of context am I? OK, if they don't mean that you don't care about stats so long as the team is winning, please describe for me what your intended meaning was with that post.

Damn, now I have to explain English. I was just playing around with that or something, I guess it's real. Okay.

I guess the capitalized WILL, indicating FUTURE TENSE, was missed by you. This is the tone of that whole paragraph. I don't care where their rankings are gonna be or to predict that, it will only matter where their rankings are ONCE A GAME OR THE SEASON IS OVER. RIGHT NOW, it's all about winning. Notice the if we aren't winning part at the end? Means once a game or season is over, stats can be used to assign a particular amount of blame here or there, CAUSE THE GAME OR SEASON IS OVER. No need for guess work. WILL RANK. WILL RANK. WILL RANK. PREDICTING exact stats is irrelevant to me. Once you get this point, all of this BS will become as silly as I see it.

And rightfully so. Gee, why do I feel I have made this argument previously? In English, and rightfully so means you are justified in feeling a certain way. Thus, if Joe posts specific stats, and they are looked at ONCE THE GAME OR SEASON IS OVER(see this is where you have to go back to the beginning and the capitalized WILL to know this is still in future tense), using those ALREADY ACHIEVED stats in a Joe isn't old argument is justified. Cause he will have achieved them. Making it so you didn't have to guess as to what they would be. Giving you a factual leg to stand on in such an argument. Cause they already happened. And are recorded. And you can post them. And not have to guess. Cause they happened. Hopefully repetition will get the point across.

Small stuff, i.e. predicting where a player will rank. Small stuff to most, but not to WhoDat. Seems to be a huge deal that Joe get some vindication from me by predicting him in the top 10 in stats. Why is my opinion of Joe so valued by you? I said he would be in the top 32, out of a couple hundred. That wasn't good enough, and you went on to this nonsense. Then made about 3 different reasons to attempt to justify taking it this far, all of which failed. Good job. Is there more need for me to explain why PREDICTING a ranking for a player is irrelevant to me, as oppsed to arguing A RANKING ALREADY ACHIEVED? WILL RANK, WILL RANK, WILL RANK. Future tense. Predicting. Guessing.

Oh - so you're now claiming that the one word you used in the first sentence permiates the entire statement. OK, sure, why not?

So then this statement:

is only true of future performances? If Joe Horn, at some later date, leads the league in receiving but the team is 8-8 then at that future date Joe's stat's won't matter... but right now they do... or they always matter in the present, is that what you're saying Whodi?

You win WhoDat. I fold my tent. I didn't think you could do it, but you did. You made a post so damn lame it defies a logical response. I laid it all out for you, and still get responded to with more inability to understand. I am perplexed at the lengths you will go to in order to make an irrelevant, faulty point. You win man. I rank that as the lamest post yet. Notice I was able to rank it after you posted it, instead of guessing where it would rank by looking at the previous ones.

Cool. Then by your logic, "You win WhoDat" will permiate any and all future discussions we have. Clearly if one word in one sentence can cast the tone for a paragraph in which you make no further allusions to the timeframe you originally claimed to be talking about, then "You win WhoDat" can be used for all of your other posts. fun.

WhoDat , you seen Saintfan around lately ?????

However you get your jollies man. I apologize if your attention span doesn't let you follow a thought out from beginning to end, in the same praragraph. You know, a paragraph, where a consistent thought is established from beginning to end, whereas if a new thought should need to be introduced, it would require the opening of a new paragraph. But let's look at what we were talking about:

The starter:

Asking me to predict where Joe will rank in a FUTURE season. Interesting. My response:

Beginning of a response. What was the answer:

Oh my, there's that word. I wonder would WhoDat is looking for? Since he capitalized the word PREDICT, should I guess he wants me to PREDICT something, meaning something that hadn't already happened? Why I guess so, cause I folloed the paragraph from beginning to end. Response:
Hmm, interesting, still talking about PREDICTING. Let's move on to WhoDat:

Again, WhoDat is asking for a prediction. I sense a trend. Response:

Lame as prediction. Yup sounds like someone who is interested in playing the game. Next:

Not only did WhoDat show what he was looking for by making EXACT predictions on rankings, you attempted to coax me into doing the same. How hard was that? Allow for being wrong. Cute. My response:

WHOA. Back the train up!!! So you mean after no less then 7 or 8 posts about PREDICTING rankings, I make a thread saying I don't care where a player WILL rank and carry out the theme of the ENTIRE conversation, and you still don't get what I am saying? It wasn't just the word WILL, which should have been obvious enough, IT WAS A WHOLE CONVERSATION ABOUT THE SAME THING. A-D-D much?

boy, i wish i had a nickel for every word wd typed to bait people.
and better yet, i wish i had a penny for each word typed in response.......
smitty

This strikes me as a circular conversation. Round and round and round we go, where we stop nobody knows.

We stop here. Rightfully so smitty and Sam, I feel like a fool for even continuing to acknowledge this nonsense.

It is the training camp thing .

Posters are back to it , getting geared up for the real season of posting . They are working on the English language and punctuation techniques here .

Working a little hard count here .

Somebody pass the popcorn.

LMAO. Oh this is rich.

Wrong about Howard, wrong about Horn, wrong about signing draft picks, and now, the guy who sits around here breaking down others opinions through the use of statistical data is too skerd to make a prediction more precise than top 32... and I'm the one with problems. It is absolutely hilarious. Hey Whodi, where do you think Deuce will finish this season? Offer a guess - top 100 you say? Wow, that narrows it down thanks. You said it's not about fear of being wrong? That's exactly what it's about, that or you have no respect for Joe Horn. Which is it?

OK - it's all about wins to Whodi these days, so... how many wins will the Saints have this year Whodi? Guess.


How much you want to bet the answer is more than 6 and fewer than 12. Thanks guy, your analytical powers are really shining through. LOL

we are who we are, are'nt we wd? smitty

08,Some classes might be in line! :lol:

Hmm, so the guy with an inability to follow a conversation HE STARTED is calling me out? I'd play your game, but after the next post you'd probably forget what it was about and we'd be right back at square one. No response to my previous post at all, just pointing out past arguments that have nothing to do with this convo. Brilliant Who. Did Billy teach you the smoke and mirrors school of arguing? And then attempting to make it seem as if I was the only one saying those things. Slow clap for WhoDat, if BS were money, he'd be Bill Gates. :shock:

You sure are quick to make insinuations about others' intelligence Whodi. Considering you don't know me, that's a ballsy PREDICTION... lol. Or are you basing it solely on this single conversation, in which I disagree with you?

But back to the point. You reposted part of our little discussion here to try to make a point. I'm not sure it came through, but let's assume it did.

Your claim then, is that I am asking you to predict EXACT numbers for Horn next season, which you will not do b/c you feel such expectations are irrelevant. OK, sure. Then let me ask the question another way - do you believe Horn will have a good season?

Doesn't he always? Doesn't change the fact his next Depends commercial airs in about 8 minutes. :P

I think this thing got off on the wrong foot cause you mistake my ribbing Joe about his age as some kinda personal attack on him or that I don't like him or something, when that is far from the truth. I KNOW the productive player he is and will be, but he is older than me, and one of the elder statesmen on our team, so I clown him on that. Doesn't mean I have anything against him, so it doesn't mean you have to ride the white horse to his rescue when I do so. Unless you just like defending him at any point joke or not, then have at it. :D

Dude - all I was doing in the first place was giving you ish. Whatever, I'm over it.

Let me ask you one more question Whodi. You said Horn will have a good year and be productive (at least, that's your guess)... right?

Well, what is a "good" year for Horn and how can you tell? ;)

Why does it matter at all to you what I think of Horn, or how I think he will do, or where he will rank? Why is it such a big deal to you that I vindicate Horn? Seriously. Why do you need my stamp of approval on Joe Horn? Don't be so insecure. Joe is, and has been a great receiver for us, is that not enough? I have no reason to believe he won't continue to be, and I have never said he won't be. So why the infatuation?

I don't care one way or the other how you feel about Horn, Whodi. I take it that you're deflection is based on the fact that you can't answer this question:

Without using prior stats to predict some type of specific (if not exact) future stats. Which was the point I was trying to get across. I wasn't setting you up now to pull it out later and rib you.

One quick note... I'm just playing with you Whodi. I'm just pushing you on your statements, but not to embarrass you or piss you off. Feel free to poke back, but please don't take it as offensive, it's not the intenet.

I can answer the question easily, I just wanted to know where you were coming from. A good year for Horn may be anything similar to what he has done previously, or maybe not even that much with a new emphasis on the running game. A good year for Horn is him catching the ball when it is thrown his way, not getting hurt, and being Joe Horn. He doesn't have to put up pro bowl numbers for me to consider it a good year. So I guess right now, for me, a good year for Joe Horn is relative. If he doesn't put up the same numbers he has previously, but we win the division, I am gonna consider that a good year for Joe Horn, cause it was a winning year for the team. If he leads the league in all stats yet we didn't come close to the playoffs, from a personal standpoint for Joe Horn I would consider it a great year for him, but it would be marred by the fact the team had another sub-par season. So to me, a good year for Joe Horn, or any Saint, at this point, is relative to wins and losses. Once the season is over, if you wanna take what they did and make arguments like, "Hey, Joe led the league in all receiving stats, so it can't possibly be his fault we failed again, or he definitely is not getting old," that's all good. Stats are a good measure of assigning blame after the fact. Not the only one, but a good one. But I just can't see the point in guessing what those rankings or stats will be before game 1 has been played. Taking those numbers at the end and saying, Joe is better than TO cause of this, this and this is a whole nother animal IMO.

After smitty and Sam's posts, I realized I was taking this too seriously. It's all good bro. You know how to push my buttons, and I accept that. Actually, it doesn't take much to push my buttons, but I digress.... :D