This may sound odd..

hitta · 12-18-2019, 12:01 AM

Originally Posted by neugey

It would take a number of games to see real progress in that regard, and heck no we don't want to be without CGM for multiple games.

Eh, I think it'd only take a game to really start throwing to them. If MT isn't there, he has to throw to someone other than him.. he'd quickly have to develop an in-game rapport. There has been so many times that a receiver has dropped a pass from Brees and it's like he doesn't want to go back to them, Brees is a perfectionist. One of the things that makes Brees so good, is actually harmful in some ways as well. Just having one game where MT isn't an option would go a long way in developing his relationship with receivers. It would force him to throw into tighter windows with players Tre'quan in the same way he does with MT. I'm not saying it would be a complete fix, but I think a lot of progress would be made. Brees had the same exact issue with Jimmy Graham. When Graham was traded, Brees started spreading the ball around a lot more. Now I definitely don't want to get rid of MT lol, but I think if you just gave him a scenario like that, it'd force those neural pathways to be developed. I feel like it'd help a lot. I don't want it to happen this year, but next year against a bad opponent would be ideal.

AsylumGuido · 12-18-2019, 07:40 AM

Sorry, but I think you are WAY off course. Brees has always passed the ball to the open receiver. And "open" is a relative term. Thomas needs less separation than other receivers to be deemed "open". That's why he sees the ball more often. Taking Thomas away would not make the others anymore open. On the contrary, without Thomas garnering the attention the others would be more closely covered.

This isn't a Brees issue. It is an issue with the other receivers getting enough separation. Cook has been getting that separation recently, as has both Hills.

hitta · 12-18-2019, 02:49 PM

Originally Posted by AsylumGuido

Sorry, but I think you are WAY off course. Brees has always passed the ball to the open receiver. And "open" is a relative term. Thomas needs less separation than other receivers to be deemed "open". That's why he sees the ball more often. Taking Thomas away would not make the others anymore open. On the contrary, without Thomas garnering the attention the others would be more closely covered.

This isn't a Brees issue. It is an issue with the other receivers getting enough separation. Cook has been getting that separation recently, as has both Hills.

You made my point for me though. Brees will throw to Thomas with a small amount of separation. He won't do that with other guys. While this has a lot to do with the fact that Michael Thomas is reliable and catches pretty much everything thrown to him... I do think he has trust issues with receivers not named Michael Thomas. I don't want to ever see MT out in a game that is competitive. If we ever play the Dolphins or something, it'd be nice to see Brees get some work with other receivers. I'm not sure I believe that the only reason Cook is getting more passes now is because he's getting more separation. I think it has a lot to do with Brees and Cook being more on the same page and a sense of trust being established. A lot of Brees throws are based on thinking and being on the same page as his WR. He'll throw the WR open or throw the WR into YAC. Brees is very meticulous, and when it comes to his receivers he can be a bit OCD. He's not the only QB like that. For example last year, Weinz threw to Tate and Ertz. Foles liked to throw to Alshon Jeffery. I highly doubt that these receivers were getting separation differently for the different QBs. What it came down to was trust and the QB being able to be inside the WRs head. When such a high percentage of passes go to MT, developing that rapport with the other receivers can be slow. Just having one game where Brees is forced to go to someone outside of that comfort zone could help.

AsylumGuido · 12-18-2019, 03:22 PM

Originally Posted by hitta

You made my point for me though. Brees will throw to Thomas will a small amount of separation. He won't do that with other guys. While this has a lot to do with the fact that Michael Thomas is reliable and catches pretty much everything thrown to him... I do think he has trust issues with receivers not named Michael Thomas. I don't want to ever see MT out in a game that is competitive. If we ever play the Dolphins or something, it'd be nice to see Brees get some work with other receivers. I'm not sure I believe that the only reason Cook is getting more passes now is because he's getting more separation. I think it has a lot to do with Brees and Cook being more on the same page and a sense of trust being established. A lot of Brees throws are based on thinking and being on the same page as his WR. He'll throw the WR open or throw the WR into YAC. Brees is very meticulous, and when it comes to his receivers he can be a bit OCD. He's not the only QB like that. For example last year, Weinz threw to Tate and Ertz. Foles liked to throw to Alshon Jeffery. I highly doubt that these receivers were getting separation differently for the different QBs. What it came down to was trust and the QB being able to be inside the WRs head. When such a high percentage of passes go to MT, developing that rapport with the other receivers can be slow. Just having one game where Brees is forced to go to someone outside of that comfort zone could help.

He has thrown hundreds of passes to all of them throughout the season, in game and in practice. The idea that taking away Thomas will force Brees to throw to the others, thus immediately improving their chemistry is a bit ridiculous. As I said, Brees will ALWAYS throw to the best option (ie. the most open). Taking away Thomas will NOT make the others anymore open, once again, quite the opposite. They will all be getting a step up in coverage with Thomas out. The WR game will become less involved with Brees having to check down to the RB's all that more often.

I feel you are greatly underestimating Brees. And as the Foles/Jeffery comparison goes, in the five games with Foles as QB Jeffery was targeted 32 times for an average of 6.4 times per game. With Wentz he was targeted 50 times in eight games for a very similar 6.25 times per game. He was getting open at the same rate for both QB's. The same goes for Thomas. He was targeted equally by both Bridgewater and Brees as compared to the other WR's. It was because he was getting open more consistently and had nothing to do with some supposed familiarity with the others.

I repeat, the discrepancy between the total receptions by Thomas as compared to the other receivers has very little, if anything, to do with Brees and virtually everything to do with the success of those other receivers in getting as open as Thomas. Taking Thomas away isn't going to magically make them better.

To be fair, both Tre'quan and Cook have dealt with injuries at times throughout the season. Ginn, on the other hand, has no excuse. Still, they have all been getting open more often recently, but with Thomas open as well who would you throw the ball to? The greatest receiver ever in Saints history maybe?

Edit: By the way, Foles threw to Ertz exactly nine times per game ... Wentz 10.09 times per game. Pretty much the same, as well.

hitta · 12-18-2019, 04:38 PM

Originally Posted by AsylumGuido

He has thrown hundreds of passes to all of them throughout the season, in game and in practice. The idea that taking away Thomas will force Brees to throw to the others, thus immediately improving their chemistry is a bit ridiculous. As I said, Brees will ALWAYS throw to the best option (ie. the most open). Taking away Thomas will NOT make the others anymore open, once again, quite the opposite. They will all be getting a step up in coverage with Thomas out. The WR game will become less involved with Brees having to check down to the RB's all that more often.

I feel you are greatly underestimating Brees. And as the Foles/Jeffery comparison goes, in the five games with Foles as QB Jeffery was targeted 32 times for an average of 6.4 times per game. With Wentz he was targeted 50 times in eight games for a very similar 6.25 times per game. He was getting open at the same rate for both QB's. The same goes for Thomas. He was targeted equally by both Bridgewater and Brees as compared to the other WR's. It was because he was getting open more consistently and had nothing to do with some supposed familiarity with the others.

I repeat, the discrepancy between the total receptions by Thomas as compared to the other receivers has very little, if anything, to do with Brees and virtually everything to do with the success of those other receivers in getting as open as Thomas. Taking Thomas away isn't going to magically make them better.

To be fair, both Tre'quan and Cook have dealt with injuries at times throughout the season. Ginn, on the other hand, has no excuse. Still, they have all been getting open more often recently, but with Thomas open as well who would you throw the ball to? The greatest receiver ever in Saints history maybe?

Edit: By the way, Foles threw to Ertz exactly nine times per game ... Wentz 10.09 times per game. Pretty much the same, as well.

https://www.phlsportsnation.com/2019...tz-connection/

Especially pay attention to the portion about contested throws.

AsylumGuido · 12-18-2019, 05:02 PM

Originally Posted by hitta

https://www.phlsportsnation.com/2019...tz-connection/

Especially pay attention to the portion about contested throws.

Interesting article. It supports that much more why Thomas gets the attention from both Brees and Bridgewater. It explains that Jeffery's strength is with the contested ball. Yet, not every receiver is of the same mold as Thomas and Jeffrey. They are open on those contested plays due to their aggressiveness. None of our other receivers have that same trait. Is that Brees' fault? Is trying to force the ball into a contested situation that a receiver is not at an advantage help? That would do nothing but result in more incompletions or interceptions. Finding the open receiver is still the best option.

Simply targeting the other receivers when they are not as open as Thomas is counterproductive and totally illogical. Once again, the only solution is for the individual receivers to improve their ability to get open or their ability to win consistently on the contested play. None of them have shown they can do the second based upon their drops.

12-18-2019, 12:01 AM	#1
hitta 1000 Posts + Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 1,333	Re: This may sound odd.. Originally Posted by neugey It would take a number of games to see real progress in that regard, and heck no we don't want to be without CGM for multiple games. Eh, I think it'd only take a game to really start throwing to them. If MT isn't there, he has to throw to someone other than him.. he'd quickly have to develop an in-game rapport. There has been so many times that a receiver has dropped a pass from Brees and it's like he doesn't want to go back to them, Brees is a perfectionist. One of the things that makes Brees so good, is actually harmful in some ways as well. Just having one game where MT isn't an option would go a long way in developing his relationship with receivers. It would force him to throw into tighter windows with players Tre'quan in the same way he does with MT. I'm not saying it would be a complete fix, but I think a lot of progress would be made. Brees had the same exact issue with Jimmy Graham. When Graham was traded, Brees started spreading the ball around a lot more. Now I definitely don't want to get rid of MT lol, but I think if you just gave him a scenario like that, it'd force those neural pathways to be developed. I feel like it'd help a lot. I don't want it to happen this year, but next year against a bad opponent would be ideal.
hitta 1000 Posts + Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 1,333

12-18-2019, 07:40 AM	#2
AsylumGuido 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Bossier City, LA Posts: 26,574	Re: This may sound odd.. Sorry, but I think you are WAY off course. Brees has always passed the ball to the open receiver. And "open" is a relative term. Thomas needs less separation than other receivers to be deemed "open". That's why he sees the ball more often. Taking Thomas away would not make the others anymore open. On the contrary, without Thomas garnering the attention the others would be more closely covered. This isn't a Brees issue. It is an issue with the other receivers getting enough separation. Cook has been getting that separation recently, as has both Hills. SmashMouth, Rugby Saint II, WW_Who_Dat and 1 others like this.

12-18-2019, 02:49 PM	#3
hitta 1000 Posts + Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 1,333	Re: This may sound odd.. Originally Posted by AsylumGuido Sorry, but I think you are WAY off course. Brees has always passed the ball to the open receiver. And "open" is a relative term. Thomas needs less separation than other receivers to be deemed "open". That's why he sees the ball more often. Taking Thomas away would not make the others anymore open. On the contrary, without Thomas garnering the attention the others would be more closely covered. This isn't a Brees issue. It is an issue with the other receivers getting enough separation. Cook has been getting that separation recently, as has both Hills. You made my point for me though. Brees will throw to Thomas with a small amount of separation. He won't do that with other guys. While this has a lot to do with the fact that Michael Thomas is reliable and catches pretty much everything thrown to him... I do think he has trust issues with receivers not named Michael Thomas. I don't want to ever see MT out in a game that is competitive. If we ever play the Dolphins or something, it'd be nice to see Brees get some work with other receivers. I'm not sure I believe that the only reason Cook is getting more passes now is because he's getting more separation. I think it has a lot to do with Brees and Cook being more on the same page and a sense of trust being established. A lot of Brees throws are based on thinking and being on the same page as his WR. He'll throw the WR open or throw the WR into YAC. Brees is very meticulous, and when it comes to his receivers he can be a bit OCD. He's not the only QB like that. For example last year, Weinz threw to Tate and Ertz. Foles liked to throw to Alshon Jeffery. I highly doubt that these receivers were getting separation differently for the different QBs. What it came down to was trust and the QB being able to be inside the WRs head. When such a high percentage of passes go to MT, developing that rapport with the other receivers can be slow. Just having one game where Brees is forced to go to someone outside of that comfort zone could help.
hitta 1000 Posts + Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 1,333

12-18-2019, 03:22 PM	#4
AsylumGuido 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Bossier City, LA Posts: 26,574	Re: This may sound odd.. Originally Posted by hitta You made my point for me though. Brees will throw to Thomas will a small amount of separation. He won't do that with other guys. While this has a lot to do with the fact that Michael Thomas is reliable and catches pretty much everything thrown to him... I do think he has trust issues with receivers not named Michael Thomas. I don't want to ever see MT out in a game that is competitive. If we ever play the Dolphins or something, it'd be nice to see Brees get some work with other receivers. I'm not sure I believe that the only reason Cook is getting more passes now is because he's getting more separation. I think it has a lot to do with Brees and Cook being more on the same page and a sense of trust being established. A lot of Brees throws are based on thinking and being on the same page as his WR. He'll throw the WR open or throw the WR into YAC. Brees is very meticulous, and when it comes to his receivers he can be a bit OCD. He's not the only QB like that. For example last year, Weinz threw to Tate and Ertz. Foles liked to throw to Alshon Jeffery. I highly doubt that these receivers were getting separation differently for the different QBs. What it came down to was trust and the QB being able to be inside the WRs head. When such a high percentage of passes go to MT, developing that rapport with the other receivers can be slow. Just having one game where Brees is forced to go to someone outside of that comfort zone could help. He has thrown hundreds of passes to all of them throughout the season, in game and in practice. The idea that taking away Thomas will force Brees to throw to the others, thus immediately improving their chemistry is a bit ridiculous. As I said, Brees will ALWAYS throw to the best option (ie. the most open). Taking away Thomas will NOT make the others anymore open, once again, quite the opposite. They will all be getting a step up in coverage with Thomas out. The WR game will become less involved with Brees having to check down to the RB's all that more often. I feel you are greatly underestimating Brees. And as the Foles/Jeffery comparison goes, in the five games with Foles as QB Jeffery was targeted 32 times for an average of 6.4 times per game. With Wentz he was targeted 50 times in eight games for a very similar 6.25 times per game. He was getting open at the same rate for both QB's. The same goes for Thomas. He was targeted equally by both Bridgewater and Brees as compared to the other WR's. It was because he was getting open more consistently and had nothing to do with some supposed familiarity with the others. I repeat, the discrepancy between the total receptions by Thomas as compared to the other receivers has very little, if anything, to do with Brees and virtually everything to do with the success of those other receivers in getting as open as Thomas. Taking Thomas away isn't going to magically make them better. To be fair, both Tre'quan and Cook have dealt with injuries at times throughout the season. Ginn, on the other hand, has no excuse. Still, they have all been getting open more often recently, but with Thomas open as well who would you throw the ball to? The greatest receiver ever in Saints history maybe? Edit: By the way, Foles threw to Ertz exactly nine times per game ... Wentz 10.09 times per game. Pretty much the same, as well.
	“The pessimist sees difficulty in every opportunity. The optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty.” — Winston Churchill

12-18-2019, 04:38 PM	#5
hitta 1000 Posts + Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 1,333	Re: This may sound odd.. Originally Posted by AsylumGuido He has thrown hundreds of passes to all of them throughout the season, in game and in practice. The idea that taking away Thomas will force Brees to throw to the others, thus immediately improving their chemistry is a bit ridiculous. As I said, Brees will ALWAYS throw to the best option (ie. the most open). Taking away Thomas will NOT make the others anymore open, once again, quite the opposite. They will all be getting a step up in coverage with Thomas out. The WR game will become less involved with Brees having to check down to the RB's all that more often. I feel you are greatly underestimating Brees. And as the Foles/Jeffery comparison goes, in the five games with Foles as QB Jeffery was targeted 32 times for an average of 6.4 times per game. With Wentz he was targeted 50 times in eight games for a very similar 6.25 times per game. He was getting open at the same rate for both QB's. The same goes for Thomas. He was targeted equally by both Bridgewater and Brees as compared to the other WR's. It was because he was getting open more consistently and had nothing to do with some supposed familiarity with the others. I repeat, the discrepancy between the total receptions by Thomas as compared to the other receivers has very little, if anything, to do with Brees and virtually everything to do with the success of those other receivers in getting as open as Thomas. Taking Thomas away isn't going to magically make them better. To be fair, both Tre'quan and Cook have dealt with injuries at times throughout the season. Ginn, on the other hand, has no excuse. Still, they have all been getting open more often recently, but with Thomas open as well who would you throw the ball to? The greatest receiver ever in Saints history maybe? Edit: By the way, Foles threw to Ertz exactly nine times per game ... Wentz 10.09 times per game. Pretty much the same, as well. https://www.phlsportsnation.com/2019...tz-connection/ Especially pay attention to the portion about contested throws.
hitta 1000 Posts + Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 1,333

12-18-2019, 05:02 PM	#6
AsylumGuido 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Bossier City, LA Posts: 26,574	Re: This may sound odd.. Originally Posted by hitta https://www.phlsportsnation.com/2019...tz-connection/ Especially pay attention to the portion about contested throws. Interesting article. It supports that much more why Thomas gets the attention from both Brees and Bridgewater. It explains that Jeffery's strength is with the contested ball. Yet, not every receiver is of the same mold as Thomas and Jeffrey. They are open on those contested plays due to their aggressiveness. None of our other receivers have that same trait. Is that Brees' fault? Is trying to force the ball into a contested situation that a receiver is not at an advantage help? That would do nothing but result in more incompletions or interceptions. Finding the open receiver is still the best option. Simply targeting the other receivers when they are not as open as Thomas is counterproductive and totally illogical. Once again, the only solution is for the individual receivers to improve their ability to get open or their ability to win consistently on the contested play. None of them have shown they can do the second based upon their drops.
	“The pessimist sees difficulty in every opportunity. The optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty.” — Winston Churchill

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