In Defense of Jameis Winston

hitta · 05-29-2020, 12:19 AM

Originally Posted by TheOak

Jamis Winston is in his 6th season, he is what he is. We may not know what that is yet.

You can't change the way a person thinks and processes. I am sure some of you rolled your eyes (which proves my point )... Look at you and all around you, some people here never admit they are not correct and some do so with merely one rational reply. You cant change that. You might change their opinion on a subject but not the way they think and the way Jamis thinks or doesn't is what get him into trouble.

It takes maturation to develop reasoning and the objective understanding otherwise known as intellect. Maybe something in Jamis's life changed his process in the last year or so but that has to come from within. 26 years old is not considered within the 12-22 +/- impressionable years. It is quite possible that something happened to change Jamis into a bad decision machine (Heisman ego) and he could have come back to earth. Tampa Bay has always been a sh1tshow from the neck up and the NFL sending first round draft picks to the biggest sh1tshows in the league is in fact setting them up to fail.

Beyond that, why does Jamis Winston need a defense. New team, new season, new start..

...and btw, you cant have a gunslinger spectrum without Favre mentioned lol.

Welcome to the team Jamis. Please shut up and play.

I both agree and disagree with this post at the same time. While I don't think you can change how someone approaches the QB position, I do think you can make adjustments to how a player looks at a particular situation. For example, you can coach a player to see a particular window differently. This can be done through heavy film study and understanding how defenses work better. You can teach QB's to read defenses better. You can make a guy start to see "well this guy is here, so if he goes here, then perhaps it's not a good idea to throw there". I don't think you can change a QB's mentality, but you can change their logical processes to be a bit more efficient.

TheOak · 05-29-2020, 05:12 AM

Originally Posted by hitta

I both agree and disagree with this post at the same time. While I don't think you can change how someone approaches the QB position, I do think you can make adjustments to how a player looks at a particular situation. For example, you can coach a player to see a particular window differently. This can be done through heavy film study and understanding how defenses work better. You can teach QB's to read defenses better. You can make a guy start to see "well this guy is here, so if he goes here, then perhaps it's not a good idea to throw there". I don't think you can change a QB's mentality, but you can change their logical processes to be a bit more efficient.

You cant MAKE anyone see anything, they have to be open to learning. We aren't talking about education here, we are talking about character modification... in any event the person still has to reach a point internally that they are open.

Teens and addicts: Until they reach a point in life where they are susceptible to suggestion they don't listen.

Another thing, and I learned this from a psychotherapist, you cant help a person that doesn't have the intellect or intelligence to understand what you are trying to do. (the academic way of saying you cant fix stupid).

With all of that said, in the interest of Winston only being a back up and there being no reason to discuss him... You and Burning are correct, people can be made to learn against their will.

burningmetal · 05-29-2020, 10:02 AM

Originally Posted by TheOak

So in stead of just agreeing with me, you say you won’t disagree with me and say what I said differently lol.

See that part about maturation and objective understanding? That has to happen before someone is open to anything other than what he has mind set on. Either that or a life event, the loss of a loved one or job can disillusion someone quickly sometimes.

Thank you for opening with not disagreeing with me, I know that couldn’t have been easy. I’m not laughing at you, I’m laughing with you.

There's a reason I said I won't disagree, as opposed to just saying "I agree", and the words that directly followed provided the context as to why.

From your perspective, at least the way you worded it (since you often say I misunderstood you, even though I can only understand things as they are written, and can't read minds who apparently always mean something different from what they actually say) is that you can't change the way a person thinks. Those are your direct words. And, as I explained, I only agree in the sense that you can't make up that person's mind for them. But I don't agree entirely, because you CAN influence the way a person thinks.

Yes, I read the part about maturation. Duly noted. Does maturation come ONLY when you are ready, by way of some life changing experience, and not by way of any sort of outside mentorship? That appears to be your position, and in my opinion, that is subjective reasoning.

People who go through life with bad influences, tend to turn into bad people. People who have positive or "good" influences tend to become "good" people, at least in terms of how the world defines someone to be basically good. The ability to "reason" is God given. HOW you reason is shaped by your influences. Just take a look at the political spectrum. People of similar ages, with similar education levels, but vastly different levels of reasoning, morals, beliefs and behavior.

What you are predisposed to impacts your way of thinking. And when someone is set in their ways, it's difficult to steer them back in the right direction. It is, however, possible.

hitta · 05-29-2020, 01:05 PM

Originally Posted by TheOak

You cant MAKE anyone see anything, they have to be open to learning. We aren't talking about education here, we are talking about character modification... in any event the person still has to reach a point internally that they are open.

Teens and addicts: Until they reach a point in life where they are susceptible to suggestion they don't listen.

Another thing, and I learned this from a psychotherapist, you cant help a person that doesn't have the intellect or intelligence to understand what you are trying to do. (the academic way of saying you cant fix stupid).

With all of that said, in the interest of Winston only being a back up and there being no reason to discuss him... You and Burning are correct, people can be made to learn against their will.

I've never once heard anything bad about Winston in regard to working hard and trying to learn and get better. Everything I've heard about Winston is that he was one of the hardest workers on the Bucs. I think there is this misconception about him for some reason by some people that he is a slouch and doesn't give it his all. From everything I've read on him, this couldn't be further from the truth. All of the first hand stories on Winston are that he works hard, is open to learn, and does his part. Yes he is a bit of a quirky character, but that is irrelevant and shouldn't be used to develop a bias against him.

K Major · 05-29-2020, 01:51 PM

Originally Posted by The Dude

The only reason we beat Tampa last year is because of Winston. Maybe Payton can fix him but I won’t have respect for him until I see something on the field and off.

Believe it or not, Jameis HAS matured. His "record" has been clean since 2016 .. even started a family and has really worked to take care of his body over the last couple of seasons.

I would certainly understand if he had done stupid s**** last year but some keep bringing up his past from 4 or more years ago.

People mature and grow. Apparently Jameis is already doing that.

darksoul35 · 05-31-2020, 12:38 AM

Originally Posted by The Dude

In all fairness I am not the person I was at 26 or 30 or even 35. It takes some longer than others to get their **** together. I was an absolute crazy person at 26. I look back at some of the decisions I made back then and wonder how in the hell I rationalized some of my actions.
Hopefully it comes to Winston sooner rather than later. It’s sad to think about someone like him looking back in old age regretting all the talent he wasted.

Amen to that.

05-29-2020, 12:19 AM	#21
hitta 1000 Posts + Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 1,324	Re: In Defense of Jameis Winston Originally Posted by TheOak Jamis Winston is in his 6th season, he is what he is. We may not know what that is yet. You can't change the way a person thinks and processes. I am sure some of you rolled your eyes (which proves my point )... Look at you and all around you, some people here never admit they are not correct and some do so with merely one rational reply. You cant change that. You might change their opinion on a subject but not the way they think and the way Jamis thinks or doesn't is what get him into trouble. It takes maturation to develop reasoning and the objective understanding otherwise known as intellect. Maybe something in Jamis's life changed his process in the last year or so but that has to come from within. 26 years old is not considered within the 12-22 +/- impressionable years. It is quite possible that something happened to change Jamis into a bad decision machine (Heisman ego) and he could have come back to earth. Tampa Bay has always been a sh1tshow from the neck up and the NFL sending first round draft picks to the biggest sh1tshows in the league is in fact setting them up to fail. Beyond that, why does Jamis Winston need a defense. New team, new season, new start.. ...and btw, you cant have a gunslinger spectrum without Favre mentioned lol. Welcome to the team Jamis. Please shut up and play. I both agree and disagree with this post at the same time. While I don't think you can change how someone approaches the QB position, I do think you can make adjustments to how a player looks at a particular situation. For example, you can coach a player to see a particular window differently. This can be done through heavy film study and understanding how defenses work better. You can teach QB's to read defenses better. You can make a guy start to see "well this guy is here, so if he goes here, then perhaps it's not a good idea to throw there". I don't think you can change a QB's mentality, but you can change their logical processes to be a bit more efficient.
hitta 1000 Posts + Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 1,324

05-29-2020, 05:12 AM	#22
TheOak 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Cypress Tx. Posts: 19,027	Re: In Defense of Jameis Winston Originally Posted by hitta I both agree and disagree with this post at the same time. While I don't think you can change how someone approaches the QB position, I do think you can make adjustments to how a player looks at a particular situation. For example, you can coach a player to see a particular window differently. This can be done through heavy film study and understanding how defenses work better. You can teach QB's to read defenses better. You can make a guy start to see "well this guy is here, so if he goes here, then perhaps it's not a good idea to throw there". I don't think you can change a QB's mentality, but you can change their logical processes to be a bit more efficient. You cant MAKE anyone see anything, they have to be open to learning. We aren't talking about education here, we are talking about character modification... in any event the person still has to reach a point internally that they are open. Teens and addicts: Until they reach a point in life where they are susceptible to suggestion they don't listen. Another thing, and I learned this from a psychotherapist, you cant help a person that doesn't have the intellect or intelligence to understand what you are trying to do. (the academic way of saying you cant fix stupid). With all of that said, in the interest of Winston only being a back up and there being no reason to discuss him... You and Burning are correct, people can be made to learn against their will.
	It's not what you look at that matters, it's what you see. ~ Henry David Thoreau

05-29-2020, 10:02 AM	#23
burningmetal 1000 Posts + Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 3,923 Blog Entries: 3	Re: In Defense of Jameis Winston Originally Posted by TheOak So in stead of just agreeing with me, you say you won’t disagree with me and say what I said differently lol. See that part about maturation and objective understanding? That has to happen before someone is open to anything other than what he has mind set on. Either that or a life event, the loss of a loved one or job can disillusion someone quickly sometimes. Thank you for opening with not disagreeing with me, I know that couldn’t have been easy. I’m not laughing at you, I’m laughing with you. There's a reason I said I won't disagree, as opposed to just saying "I agree", and the words that directly followed provided the context as to why. From your perspective, at least the way you worded it (since you often say I misunderstood you, even though I can only understand things as they are written, and can't read minds who apparently always mean something different from what they actually say) is that you can't change the way a person thinks. Those are your direct words. And, as I explained, I only agree in the sense that you can't make up that person's mind for them. But I don't agree entirely, because you CAN influence the way a person thinks. Yes, I read the part about maturation. Duly noted. Does maturation come ONLY when you are ready, by way of some life changing experience, and not by way of any sort of outside mentorship? That appears to be your position, and in my opinion, that is subjective reasoning. People who go through life with bad influences, tend to turn into bad people. People who have positive or "good" influences tend to become "good" people, at least in terms of how the world defines someone to be basically good. The ability to "reason" is God given. HOW you reason is shaped by your influences. Just take a look at the political spectrum. People of similar ages, with similar education levels, but vastly different levels of reasoning, morals, beliefs and behavior. What you are predisposed to impacts your way of thinking. And when someone is set in their ways, it's difficult to steer them back in the right direction. It is, however, possible. K Major likes this.
	If I had a nickel for every time I heard that, the NFL would fine and suspend me.

05-29-2020, 01:05 PM	#24
hitta 1000 Posts + Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 1,324	Re: In Defense of Jameis Winston Originally Posted by TheOak You cant MAKE anyone see anything, they have to be open to learning. We aren't talking about education here, we are talking about character modification... in any event the person still has to reach a point internally that they are open. Teens and addicts: Until they reach a point in life where they are susceptible to suggestion they don't listen. Another thing, and I learned this from a psychotherapist, you cant help a person that doesn't have the intellect or intelligence to understand what you are trying to do. (the academic way of saying you cant fix stupid). With all of that said, in the interest of Winston only being a back up and there being no reason to discuss him... You and Burning are correct, people can be made to learn against their will. I've never once heard anything bad about Winston in regard to working hard and trying to learn and get better. Everything I've heard about Winston is that he was one of the hardest workers on the Bucs. I think there is this misconception about him for some reason by some people that he is a slouch and doesn't give it his all. From everything I've read on him, this couldn't be further from the truth. All of the first hand stories on Winston are that he works hard, is open to learn, and does his part. Yes he is a bit of a quirky character, but that is irrelevant and shouldn't be used to develop a bias against him. AsylumGuido likes this.
hitta 1000 Posts + Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 1,324

05-29-2020, 01:51 PM	#25
K Major Site Donor 2019 Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: Bedford, TX Posts: 24,622 Blog Entries: 3	Re: In Defense of Jameis Winston Originally Posted by The Dude The only reason we beat Tampa last year is because of Winston. Maybe Payton can fix him but I won’t have respect for him until I see something on the field and off. Believe it or not, Jameis HAS matured. His "record" has been clean since 2016 .. even started a family and has really worked to take care of his body over the last couple of seasons. I would certainly understand if he had done stupid s**** last year but some keep bringing up his past from 4 or more years ago. People mature and grow. Apparently Jameis is already doing that. SaintFanInATLHELL and AsylumGuido like this.

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05-31-2020, 12:38 AM	#26
darksoul35 1000 Posts + Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 1,041	Re: In Defense of Jameis Winston Originally Posted by The Dude In all fairness I am not the person I was at 26 or 30 or even 35. It takes some longer than others to get their **** together. I was an absolute crazy person at 26. I look back at some of the decisions I made back then and wonder how in the hell I rationalized some of my actions. Hopefully it comes to Winston sooner rather than later. It’s sad to think about someone like him looking back in old age regretting all the talent he wasted. Amen to that.
darksoul35 1000 Posts + Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 1,041