Saints again start slow, sloppy with comeback falling short; here's what happened in Chiefs loss

AsylumGuido · 12-23-2020, 12:01 PM

Originally Posted by K Major

Payton is an above average coach but when your two best offensive weapons don’t even combine for 20 carries a game something is wrong with your philosophy.

Throwing to open up the running game is great if your strengths are in the passing game, that’s exactly what Chiefs/Reid did to us.

Originally Posted by gosaints1

Different philosophies. imho, you take what the other team gives you. The “I’ma run the ball down your throat” mindset works sometimes, not always. Just ask Ditka and RW#34. Static approach to a fluid environment. If the middle of the field is there, eat it until you’re obese, or it’s taken away from you. Same for short, same for deep.

I was listening to Charlie Weis on NFL Radio today and two callers broached this subject. One was complaining about the play calling (not Saints related) not including enough run plays and the other was actually asking about Kamara's lack of touches. Weis' answers overlapped a bit so I'll combine and paraphrase. First, Weis pointed out game planning dictates play calling to a degree, but the defensive front has even more of a direct impact. He said that chance of success on any given play at the line dictates run versus pass. He basically said that while a run may have been the primary call the look often dictates a quick pass for what is usually a better chance at a gain. He has also said in the past the goal is always to run the ball as much as you can, but if the defense is giving you the better chance via pass you have to take it (as pointed out by gosaints1).

Our problem this past game is that we weren't able to take advantage of it early. On some of those hot reads the receivers were completely out on position. On others the read was correct, but the ball was simply dropped. On others Brees wasn't quite dialed in yet.

The Chiefs totally shut down Murray's attempts to run the ball. He had three yards on four carries and those three came on his longest run. I must say that Murray did do well catching the ball with two catches for 26 yards and the TD. Had we completed more of those early short passes it would have opened the door to run more demanding more coverage off the line.

gosaints1 · 12-23-2020, 12:36 PM

Originally Posted by AsylumGuido

...The Chiefs totally shut down Murray's attempts to run the ball. He had three yards on four carries and those three came on his longest run. I must say that Murray did do well catching the ball with two catches for 26 yards and the TD. Had we completed more of those early short passes it would have opened the door to run more demanding more coverage off the line.

A fair argument could be made that Murray wasn’t given enough chances. My guess is we’ll both agree that four touches out of a sixty minute game just isn’t a large enough sample. And most runners like Murray tend to get stronger as the game plays on and defenses get tired... Umm, lol, that previous statement presupposes that the opposing team’s defense is on the field longer than 2:40 (Saints longest drive) at a time. But when the opposing team “hyper-focuses” on your running game and/or short passing game, then other portions of the field will be freed up. When that happens, we have to make them pay. We definitely have the talent to do that.

AsylumGuido · 12-23-2020, 12:43 PM

Originally Posted by gosaints1

A fair argument could be made that Murray wasn’t given enough chances. My guess is we’ll both agree that four touches out of a sixty minute game just isn’t a large enough sample. And most runners like Murray tend to get stronger as the game plays on and defenses get tired... Umm, lol, that previous statement presupposes that the opposing team’s defense is on the field longer than 2:40 (Saints longest drive) at a time. But when the opposing team “hyper-focuses” on your running game and/or short passing game, then other portions of the field will be freed up. When that happens, we have to make them pay. We definitely have the talent to do that.

When we're at full strength we have the talent to do that. Although, we did start taking advantage in the second half.

And you're right, the Chiefs' defense barely worked up a sweat in the first half.

gosaints1 · 12-23-2020, 12:58 PM

Originally Posted by AsylumGuido

When we're at full strength we have the talent to do that. Although, we did start taking advantage in the second half.

And you're right, the Chiefs' defense barely worked up a sweat in the first half.

“Chiefs defense barely worked up a sweat.”

Fixed it for you.

12-23-2020, 12:01 PM	#1
AsylumGuido 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Bossier City, LA Posts: 26,677	Re: Saints again start slow, sloppy with comeback falling short; here's what happened in Chiefs loss Originally Posted by K Major Payton is an above average coach but when your two best offensive weapons don’t even combine for 20 carries a game something is wrong with your philosophy. Throwing to open up the running game is great if your strengths are in the passing game, that’s exactly what Chiefs/Reid did to us. Originally Posted by gosaints1 Different philosophies. imho, you take what the other team gives you. The “I’ma run the ball down your throat” mindset works sometimes, not always. Just ask Ditka and RW#34. Static approach to a fluid environment. If the middle of the field is there, eat it until you’re obese, or it’s taken away from you. Same for short, same for deep. I was listening to Charlie Weis on NFL Radio today and two callers broached this subject. One was complaining about the play calling (not Saints related) not including enough run plays and the other was actually asking about Kamara's lack of touches. Weis' answers overlapped a bit so I'll combine and paraphrase. First, Weis pointed out game planning dictates play calling to a degree, but the defensive front has even more of a direct impact. He said that chance of success on any given play at the line dictates run versus pass. He basically said that while a run may have been the primary call the look often dictates a quick pass for what is usually a better chance at a gain. He has also said in the past the goal is always to run the ball as much as you can, but if the defense is giving you the better chance via pass you have to take it (as pointed out by gosaints1). Our problem this past game is that we weren't able to take advantage of it early. On some of those hot reads the receivers were completely out on position. On others the read was correct, but the ball was simply dropped. On others Brees wasn't quite dialed in yet. The Chiefs totally shut down Murray's attempts to run the ball. He had three yards on four carries and those three came on his longest run. I must say that Murray did do well catching the ball with two catches for 26 yards and the TD. Had we completed more of those early short passes it would have opened the door to run more demanding more coverage off the line. gosaints1 likes this.
	“The pessimist sees difficulty in every opportunity. The optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty.” — Winston Churchill

12-23-2020, 12:36 PM	#2
gosaints1 500th Post Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 576	Re: Saints again start slow, sloppy with comeback falling short; here's what happened in Chiefs loss Originally Posted by AsylumGuido ...The Chiefs totally shut down Murray's attempts to run the ball. He had three yards on four carries and those three came on his longest run. I must say that Murray did do well catching the ball with two catches for 26 yards and the TD. Had we completed more of those early short passes it would have opened the door to run more demanding more coverage off the line. A fair argument could be made that Murray wasn’t given enough chances. My guess is we’ll both agree that four touches out of a sixty minute game just isn’t a large enough sample. And most runners like Murray tend to get stronger as the game plays on and defenses get tired... Umm, lol, that previous statement presupposes that the opposing team’s defense is on the field longer than 2:40 (Saints longest drive) at a time. But when the opposing team “hyper-focuses” on your running game and/or short passing game, then other portions of the field will be freed up. When that happens, we have to make them pay. We definitely have the talent to do that.
gosaints1 500th Post Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 576

12-23-2020, 12:58 PM	#4
gosaints1 500th Post Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 576	Re: Saints again start slow, sloppy with comeback falling short; here's what happened in Chiefs loss Originally Posted by AsylumGuido When we're at full strength we have the talent to do that. Although, we did start taking advantage in the second half. And you're right, the Chiefs' defense barely worked up a sweat in the first half. “Chiefs defense barely worked up a sweat.” Fixed it for you.
gosaints1 500th Post Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 576

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12-23-2020, 12:43 PM	#3
AsylumGuido 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Bossier City, LA Posts: 26,677	Re: Saints again start slow, sloppy with comeback falling short; here's what happened in Chiefs loss Originally Posted by gosaints1 A fair argument could be made that Murray wasn’t given enough chances. My guess is we’ll both agree that four touches out of a sixty minute game just isn’t a large enough sample. And most runners like Murray tend to get stronger as the game plays on and defenses get tired... Umm, lol, that previous statement presupposes that the opposing team’s defense is on the field longer than 2:40 (Saints longest drive) at a time. But when the opposing team “hyper-focuses” on your running game and/or short passing game, then other portions of the field will be freed up. When that happens, we have to make them pay. We definitely have the talent to do that. When we're at full strength we have the talent to do that. Although, we did start taking advantage in the second half. And you're right, the Chiefs' defense barely worked up a sweat in the first half.