Anyone else think Vince Young

BrooksMustGo · 01-05-2006, 11:07 AM

Originally Posted by Tobias-Reiper

Whodi, I'm not saying he blows, not at all... I'm just saying he is not that impressive a QB considering what he's got around him.

You have to admit, he's got a weak arm,a nd seems lil' fragile. He has to put a lot on a throw to go 30+yards.

As for stats, I can bring up Chris Weinke's stats, or Torretta's for that matter , whose Hurricanes went undefeated for 2 seasons...

I may very well be wrong, but my feel is that he is not going to be very good in the NFL.

TR, I think you have a very valid point. We need to think carefully before drafting a guy whose limitations might make him a bad value at #2.

I was thinking about the "body of work" argument this morning and don't think I understand it either.

Leinert had 1 loss this season and posted these numbers.
283 completions on 431 attemtpts for a percentage of 65.7.
He threw for 3815 yards, 28 TD's and 8 picks.

Jason White in 2004 had 1 loss.
255 completions on 390 attempts for a percentage of 65.4.
He threw for 3205 yards, 35 TD's and 9 picks.

Both guys had a highly successful body of work with comparable numbers and very few losses. Both guys were supposed to be really smart and both had questionable arm strength and mobility.
Both guys had durability concerns.
Both guys had a super talented supporting cast.
But 1 guy is worth the 2nd overall pick and the other shouldn't even be a backup in the pros?

I'm not sure I get this. Leinert seems to be like White with more ego and media love. When I was looking at Leinert last night, I just don't see a substantial difference from White.

Now I'm not saying that we should take Vince Young either. (Even though I disagree with comparing him to Vick.) I just can't justify making an enormous financial investment in Leinert at #2.

saintswhodi · 01-05-2006, 11:51 AM

A BODY OF WORK, is more than just one season. Did you compare Leinart in 2003, 2004 and 2005 and opposed to White for one year? Doesn't seem like it. So that does not come close to a body of work. Fact is, he has been the best QB in college footballf or three straight years, White didn't do that. OU also had a better defense than USC. White also had TWO knee surgeries, thaty made him pretty much immobile. Another faulty comparison. When will it end?

CHACHING · 01-05-2006, 11:58 AM

Right whodi....how fast people forget.....
Leinart is great....

jrmllb · 01-05-2006, 12:09 PM

TR I.m not saying A-Mac and VY are equals by record, obviously...I am just saying he has similar potential to be a double threat in the backfield...I don't see the value of going out and spending a ton of money in the draft for a qb right now...I think we should draft OL, LB, or DL

CheramieIII · 01-05-2006, 12:39 PM

Mr. Zero Class went into the locker room and congratulated the Longhorns on the win. Worthy of Aaron Brooks? Okay. The guy has a Heisman and 1.5 national titles, and is regarded as the best College QB of all time, as opposed to an average chump who has done NTOHING at any level. Come off it.

Damn Whodi, the only reason he would have gone to the Texas locker room after he acted STUPID on national television was because of a call from his agent or his Dad telling him he better do something to make up for those STUPID comments he made.

You guys are always talking about links, where is the link that tells us he even went to the Texas locker room or is it just heresay.

Vince Young single handedly beat USC last night, Leinhart made some big mistakes in the big game, as did Bush. USC has alot more offensive weapons than Texas did, BUT FACE IT THEY GOT BEAT IN THE BIG GAME.

Certainly you can't think that USC had any competition at all last year for that national title and the BCS did not have them ranked number one the year before, so that AP shiiiiitttt don't fly with me.

I am not saying that Leinhart or Bush or USC for that matter are crap, what I am saying is that if you look at the game last night and "bodies of work", as you call it for Leinhart and Young, you would be stupid to draft anyone ahead of Young. If Young doesn't come out, you know he will win the national championship and Heisman next year. So I guess at the point you will have no choice but to admit Young is superior to Leinhart and don't worry about it I will remind you next year.

and whats the brace on Leinhart's leg anyway??????????????

saintswhodi · 01-05-2006, 01:49 PM

First Cher, just wow. I don't even know where to start. Do you even know what Leinart said? Obviously not. Go read the nearly flawless thread. It's in bold. It's not nearly as bad as people wanna make it seem. Next, they reported in the post game he and Bush went to the Longhowns locker room to congratulate them. No, it can't be cause they are class guys, it's cause their agents(which none have) or their dads(who were int he stands, and last I checked players didn't have cellphones in their uniforms? told them to? Are you serious?

Vince Young single handedly beat USC last night, Leinhart made some big mistakes in the big game, as did Bush. USC has alot more offensive weapons than Texas did, BUT FACE IT THEY GOT BEAT IN THE BIG GAME.

A) Who doubted Vince Young won the game? B) What BIG mistakes did Leinart make? HE threw an INT that was just a great play by the DB. In the second half, he wa snear perfect. Please. As far as offensive weapons go, yup USC has more, but Texas has a WAY WAY WAY better defense, so what is your point? They got beat. I wonder if that's ever happened before.

Certainly you can't think that USC had any competition at all last year for that national title and the BCS did not have them ranked number one the year before, so that AP shiiiiitttt don't fly with me.

Didn't have any competition? OU and Auburn must have been undefeated for nothing. Yikes.

what I am saying is that if you look at the game last night and "bodies of work", as you call it for Leinhart and Young, you would be stupid to draft anyone ahead of Young.

Actually, if you looked at the bodies of work, it would make anyone an idiot for not taking Leinart. Leinart, dominant for 3 years, Young, dominant for close to two. Bush, dominant for the last two. Nice one.

So I guess at the point you will have no choice but to admit Young is superior to Leinhart and don't worry about it I will remind you next year.

Why would I have to admit that? Young ISN'T superior to Leinart. And it isn't a given he will win another national title and win the Heisman. Heard of Brady Quinn? Heard of Marcus Vick? Heard of LSU, Auburn, Alabama, Florida, Ohio State? Sorry, I am not buying your crystal ball approach to assessing Young. Leinart is the better QB, Young is the better athlete. Right now, that's how it is.

GoldenTomb · 01-05-2006, 02:17 PM

I've been reading for weeks upon months and i have to break my silence finally w/all of this QB talk.

Whodi i respect your opinions but i have to disagree w/your assessment of Leinart. While I think he's the best QB in the draft, I don't think he's overwhelmingly better than, say a Jay Cutler or Brady Quinn, Quinn actually being a QB that Mel Kiper has rated better than Leinart. We all know that Quinn isn't coming out, so that doesn't matter. Cutler strikes me as being close in talent to Leinart, but not better. Put Cutler on USC and I think he puts up similar numbers

Leinart just wouldn't be a good fit for the Saints, and I say that based on where he's coming from. He will be coming from a college team that lost 2 games in his entire starting career to a team that will probably lose 12 games next year. Judging from last night, he doesn't seem to take losing very well. He's not a Peyton Manning that talks about things he needs to work on or what he could have done differently. He came across as a sore loser. He went straight to saying how the defense couldn't stop Texas and deflected blame from himself, almost like Aaron Brooks in a sense. OK he went to the locker room to congratulate Texas. I would't be willing to excuse his earlier comments for that. Young seems like he'd be a much better fit. While not as talented as a passer(despite his superior efficiency rating)his psyche seems to be more well prepared to put a team on his shoulders when they are down. People can't make light of the fact that Leinart has one of the best supporting casts ever in college football.

saintswhodi · 01-05-2006, 02:27 PM

GT, to an extent, I agree with you. I didn't like the comments he made either, but they weren't earth shattering. They COULDN'T stop them when they needed to. Case closed. He told it like it was. Like I said before, how that compares to a garbage QB who has never won anything say "I am a GREAT QB on a struggling, inconsistent team" someone needs to explain to me. I don't see that at all. What I see is a confident guy, who hates losing, get a camera shoved in his face right after he lost his first game in almost 3 years. He showed the proper class in going to the other locker room, as the leader of his team, and congratulating Texas. I wonder if anyoen can find one article with any USC player having a problem with what he said. I'dd be waiting for that.

And where did you see Kiper rate Quinn better than Leinart? He has Leinert, his own words, rated as one of his highest QBs ever, and ahead of Eli Manning and Carson Palmer. So Brady Quinn is rating higher than that? I dunno about that. Although I do think Quinn will be VERY good, he's not coming out this year. Leinart knows he's not gonna be able to go to the Colts, caus ethat's how the draft usually works. The sucky teams get to pick the best players. It has been in place forever, so for him to sulk about going from a winning program to a losing one in the NFL, he must not have followed the pro draft at all in his life. That's how it goes. I am sure he was ready for it. If he went to the Texans or to the Jets or to the Lions, or to the Titans, it would be the same losing team. Why are we any different?

GoldenTomb · 01-05-2006, 02:45 PM

Originally Posted by saintswhodi

GT, to an extent, I agree with you. I didn't like the comments he made either, but they weren't earth shattering. They COULDN'T stop them when they needed to. Case closed. He told it like it was. Like I said before, how that compares to a garbage QB who has never won anything say "I am a GREAT QB on a struggling, inconsistent team" someone needs to explain to me. I don't see that at all. What I see is a confident guy, who hates losing, get a camera shoved in his face right after he lost his first game in almost 3 years. He showed the proper class in going to the other locker room, as the leader of his team, and congratulating Texas. I wonder if anyoen can find one article with any USC player having a problem with what he said. I'dd be waiting for that.

And where did you see Kiper rate Quinn better than Leinart? He has Leinert, his own words, rated as one of his highest QBs ever, and ahead of Eli Manning and Carson Palmer. So Brady Quinn is rating higher than that? I dunno about that. Although I do think Quinn will be VERY good, he's not coming out this year. Leinart knows he's not gonna be able to go to the Colts, caus ethat's how the draft usually works. The sucky teams get to pick the best players. It has been in place forever, so for him to sulk about going from a winning program to a losing one in the NFL, he must not have followed the pro draft at all in his life. That's how it goes. I am sure he was ready for it. If he went to the Texans or to the Jets or to the Lions, or to the Titans, it would be the same losing team. Why are we any different?

Hey whodi....i absoutely agree w/Leinart's assessment of the game. The D couldn't stop Texas. The point is I think there are places where a QB can't go, and things he can't say. A QB talking about the D's shortcomings is one of those. If he were to say something like that being the QB of the Saints next year, Will Smith's probably gonna rip his head off. It just struck me as similar to Aaron Brooks in the sense that he was deflecting blame. Not that he did anything to lose the game for USC, but I would prefer a QB that would take accountability for the losses REGARDLESS of if any of it could be directly attributed to him.

I actually heard Kiper talking about how high he was on Quinn on the Dan Patrick show on the radio. I don't have the link, so you can disregard it.

You have to admit that coming to N.O. would set a precedent for a first round pick this year. No one has ever had to concern themselves about the overall stability of a franchise to this degree, with all the L.A. talk. That combined with the fact that N.O. is as abysmal or more than all of those teams you named, would suggest that if some high profile draft pick will hold out on a team, it will be ours.

It may be a moot point. After Young's Rose Bowl performance we might be looking at Bush at number two. No way we pass up on him. Line him up in the backfield or put him in the slot. Lets get Omar Jacobs in the second. I think we'd be in much better shape that way.

saintswhodi · 01-05-2006, 02:50 PM

I don't know bro. A lot of you guys I normally agree with, we are so far apart on this one it's almost unbelievable. I guess I will just wait to see what happens between now and the draft, to see how things shake out. It's clear who I want, unless an obviously better situation presents itself, I am not gonna change that. And you guys seem pretty set, so we'll just have to see.

01-05-2006, 11:07 AM	#51
BrooksMustGo 1000 Posts + Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 1,762	Originally Posted by Tobias-Reiper Whodi, I'm not saying he blows, not at all... I'm just saying he is not that impressive a QB considering what he's got around him. You have to admit, he's got a weak arm,a nd seems lil' fragile. He has to put a lot on a throw to go 30+yards. As for stats, I can bring up Chris Weinke's stats, or Torretta's for that matter , whose Hurricanes went undefeated for 2 seasons... I may very well be wrong, but my feel is that he is not going to be very good in the NFL. TR, I think you have a very valid point. We need to think carefully before drafting a guy whose limitations might make him a bad value at #2. I was thinking about the "body of work" argument this morning and don't think I understand it either. Leinert had 1 loss this season and posted these numbers. 283 completions on 431 attemtpts for a percentage of 65.7. He threw for 3815 yards, 28 TD's and 8 picks. Jason White in 2004 had 1 loss. 255 completions on 390 attempts for a percentage of 65.4. He threw for 3205 yards, 35 TD's and 9 picks. Both guys had a highly successful body of work with comparable numbers and very few losses. Both guys were supposed to be really smart and both had questionable arm strength and mobility. Both guys had durability concerns. Both guys had a super talented supporting cast. But 1 guy is worth the 2nd overall pick and the other shouldn't even be a backup in the pros? I'm not sure I get this. Leinert seems to be like White with more ego and media love. When I was looking at Leinert last night, I just don't see a substantial difference from White. Now I'm not saying that we should take Vince Young either. (Even though I disagree with comparing him to Vick.) I just can't justify making an enormous financial investment in Leinert at #2.
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01-05-2006, 12:39 PM	#55
CheramieIII Fan Since 1967 Join Date: May 2004 Location: Nomad Posts: 7,460 Blog Entries: 3	Mr. Zero Class went into the locker room and congratulated the Longhorns on the win. Worthy of Aaron Brooks? Okay. The guy has a Heisman and 1.5 national titles, and is regarded as the best College QB of all time, as opposed to an average chump who has done NTOHING at any level. Come off it. Damn Whodi, the only reason he would have gone to the Texas locker room after he acted STUPID on national television was because of a call from his agent or his Dad telling him he better do something to make up for those STUPID comments he made. You guys are always talking about links, where is the link that tells us he even went to the Texas locker room or is it just heresay. Vince Young single handedly beat USC last night, Leinhart made some big mistakes in the big game, as did Bush. USC has alot more offensive weapons than Texas did, BUT FACE IT THEY GOT BEAT IN THE BIG GAME. Certainly you can't think that USC had any competition at all last year for that national title and the BCS did not have them ranked number one the year before, so that AP shiiiiitttt don't fly with me. I am not saying that Leinhart or Bush or USC for that matter are crap, what I am saying is that if you look at the game last night and "bodies of work", as you call it for Leinhart and Young, you would be stupid to draft anyone ahead of Young. If Young doesn't come out, you know he will win the national championship and Heisman next year. So I guess at the point you will have no choice but to admit Young is superior to Leinhart and don't worry about it I will remind you next year. and whats the brace on Leinhart's leg anyway??????????????
	Golf and sex are about the only things you can enjoy without being good at them. Jimmy Demaret

01-05-2006, 01:49 PM	#56
saintswhodi 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: San Antonio, TX Posts: 6,941	First Cher, just wow. I don't even know where to start. Do you even know what Leinart said? Obviously not. Go read the nearly flawless thread. It's in bold. It's not nearly as bad as people wanna make it seem. Next, they reported in the post game he and Bush went to the Longhowns locker room to congratulate them. No, it can't be cause they are class guys, it's cause their agents(which none have) or their dads(who were int he stands, and last I checked players didn't have cellphones in their uniforms? told them to? Are you serious? Vince Young single handedly beat USC last night, Leinhart made some big mistakes in the big game, as did Bush. USC has alot more offensive weapons than Texas did, BUT FACE IT THEY GOT BEAT IN THE BIG GAME. A) Who doubted Vince Young won the game? B) What BIG mistakes did Leinart make? HE threw an INT that was just a great play by the DB. In the second half, he wa snear perfect. Please. As far as offensive weapons go, yup USC has more, but Texas has a WAY WAY WAY better defense, so what is your point? They got beat. I wonder if that's ever happened before. Certainly you can't think that USC had any competition at all last year for that national title and the BCS did not have them ranked number one the year before, so that AP shiiiiitttt don't fly with me. Didn't have any competition? OU and Auburn must have been undefeated for nothing. Yikes. what I am saying is that if you look at the game last night and "bodies of work", as you call it for Leinhart and Young, you would be stupid to draft anyone ahead of Young. Actually, if you looked at the bodies of work, it would make anyone an idiot for not taking Leinart. Leinart, dominant for 3 years, Young, dominant for close to two. Bush, dominant for the last two. Nice one. So I guess at the point you will have no choice but to admit Young is superior to Leinhart and don't worry about it I will remind you next year. Why would I have to admit that? Young ISN'T superior to Leinart. And it isn't a given he will win another national title and win the Heisman. Heard of Brady Quinn? Heard of Marcus Vick? Heard of LSU, Auburn, Alabama, Florida, Ohio State? Sorry, I am not buying your crystal ball approach to assessing Young. Leinart is the better QB, Young is the better athlete. Right now, that's how it is.

01-05-2006, 02:17 PM	#57
GoldenTomb 500th Post Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 591	I've been reading for weeks upon months and i have to break my silence finally w/all of this QB talk. Whodi i respect your opinions but i have to disagree w/your assessment of Leinart. While I think he's the best QB in the draft, I don't think he's overwhelmingly better than, say a Jay Cutler or Brady Quinn, Quinn actually being a QB that Mel Kiper has rated better than Leinart. We all know that Quinn isn't coming out, so that doesn't matter. Cutler strikes me as being close in talent to Leinart, but not better. Put Cutler on USC and I think he puts up similar numbers Leinart just wouldn't be a good fit for the Saints, and I say that based on where he's coming from. He will be coming from a college team that lost 2 games in his entire starting career to a team that will probably lose 12 games next year. Judging from last night, he doesn't seem to take losing very well. He's not a Peyton Manning that talks about things he needs to work on or what he could have done differently. He came across as a sore loser. He went straight to saying how the defense couldn't stop Texas and deflected blame from himself, almost like Aaron Brooks in a sense. OK he went to the locker room to congratulate Texas. I would't be willing to excuse his earlier comments for that. Young seems like he'd be a much better fit. While not as talented as a passer(despite his superior efficiency rating)his psyche seems to be more well prepared to put a team on his shoulders when they are down. People can't make light of the fact that Leinart has one of the best supporting casts ever in college football.
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01-05-2006, 02:45 PM	#59
GoldenTomb 500th Post Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 591	Originally Posted by saintswhodi GT, to an extent, I agree with you. I didn't like the comments he made either, but they weren't earth shattering. They COULDN'T stop them when they needed to. Case closed. He told it like it was. Like I said before, how that compares to a garbage QB who has never won anything say "I am a GREAT QB on a struggling, inconsistent team" someone needs to explain to me. I don't see that at all. What I see is a confident guy, who hates losing, get a camera shoved in his face right after he lost his first game in almost 3 years. He showed the proper class in going to the other locker room, as the leader of his team, and congratulating Texas. I wonder if anyoen can find one article with any USC player having a problem with what he said. I'dd be waiting for that. And where did you see Kiper rate Quinn better than Leinart? He has Leinert, his own words, rated as one of his highest QBs ever, and ahead of Eli Manning and Carson Palmer. So Brady Quinn is rating higher than that? I dunno about that. Although I do think Quinn will be VERY good, he's not coming out this year. Leinart knows he's not gonna be able to go to the Colts, caus ethat's how the draft usually works. The sucky teams get to pick the best players. It has been in place forever, so for him to sulk about going from a winning program to a losing one in the NFL, he must not have followed the pro draft at all in his life. That's how it goes. I am sure he was ready for it. If he went to the Texans or to the Jets or to the Lions, or to the Titans, it would be the same losing team. Why are we any different? Hey whodi....i absoutely agree w/Leinart's assessment of the game. The D couldn't stop Texas. The point is I think there are places where a QB can't go, and things he can't say. A QB talking about the D's shortcomings is one of those. If he were to say something like that being the QB of the Saints next year, Will Smith's probably gonna rip his head off. It just struck me as similar to Aaron Brooks in the sense that he was deflecting blame. Not that he did anything to lose the game for USC, but I would prefer a QB that would take accountability for the losses REGARDLESS of if any of it could be directly attributed to him. I actually heard Kiper talking about how high he was on Quinn on the Dan Patrick show on the radio. I don't have the link, so you can disregard it. You have to admit that coming to N.O. would set a precedent for a first round pick this year. No one has ever had to concern themselves about the overall stability of a franchise to this degree, with all the L.A. talk. That combined with the fact that N.O. is as abysmal or more than all of those teams you named, would suggest that if some high profile draft pick will hold out on a team, it will be ours. It may be a moot point. After Young's Rose Bowl performance we might be looking at Bush at number two. No way we pass up on him. Line him up in the backfield or put him in the slot. Lets get Omar Jacobs in the second. I think we'd be in much better shape that way.
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01-05-2006, 11:51 AM	#52
saintswhodi 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: San Antonio, TX Posts: 6,941	A BODY OF WORK, is more than just one season. Did you compare Leinart in 2003, 2004 and 2005 and opposed to White for one year? Doesn't seem like it. So that does not come close to a body of work. Fact is, he has been the best QB in college footballf or three straight years, White didn't do that. OU also had a better defense than USC. White also had TWO knee surgeries, thaty made him pretty much immobile. Another faulty comparison. When will it end?

01-05-2006, 11:58 AM	#53
CHACHING 500th Post Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Golden State Posts: 830	Right whodi....how fast people forget..... Leinart is great....

01-05-2006, 12:09 PM	#54
jrmllb 500th Post Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Alexandria, Louisiana Posts: 665	TR I.m not saying A-Mac and VY are equals by record, obviously...I am just saying he has similar potential to be a double threat in the backfield...I don't see the value of going out and spending a ton of money in the draft for a qb right now...I think we should draft OL, LB, or DL

01-05-2006, 02:27 PM	#58
saintswhodi 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: San Antonio, TX Posts: 6,941	GT, to an extent, I agree with you. I didn't like the comments he made either, but they weren't earth shattering. They COULDN'T stop them when they needed to. Case closed. He told it like it was. Like I said before, how that compares to a garbage QB who has never won anything say "I am a GREAT QB on a struggling, inconsistent team" someone needs to explain to me. I don't see that at all. What I see is a confident guy, who hates losing, get a camera shoved in his face right after he lost his first game in almost 3 years. He showed the proper class in going to the other locker room, as the leader of his team, and congratulating Texas. I wonder if anyoen can find one article with any USC player having a problem with what he said. I'dd be waiting for that. And where did you see Kiper rate Quinn better than Leinart? He has Leinert, his own words, rated as one of his highest QBs ever, and ahead of Eli Manning and Carson Palmer. So Brady Quinn is rating higher than that? I dunno about that. Although I do think Quinn will be VERY good, he's not coming out this year. Leinart knows he's not gonna be able to go to the Colts, caus ethat's how the draft usually works. The sucky teams get to pick the best players. It has been in place forever, so for him to sulk about going from a winning program to a losing one in the NFL, he must not have followed the pro draft at all in his life. That's how it goes. I am sure he was ready for it. If he went to the Texans or to the Jets or to the Lions, or to the Titans, it would be the same losing team. Why are we any different?

01-05-2006, 02:50 PM	#60
saintswhodi 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: San Antonio, TX Posts: 6,941	I don't know bro. A lot of you guys I normally agree with, we are so far apart on this one it's almost unbelievable. I guess I will just wait to see what happens between now and the draft, to see how things shake out. It's clear who I want, unless an obviously better situation presents itself, I am not gonna change that. And you guys seem pretty set, so we'll just have to see.