How the Saints running game can be more effective

saintfan · 09-29-2011, 06:53 PM

Originally Posted by CantonLegend

you wanna debate then debate.

you wanna pretend like ur right? defend ur stance with some facts that are going to back up ur claims

Here are some stats for you:

http://espn.go.com/nfl/statistics/team/_/stat/rushing"]2011 NFL Team Rushing Stats - National Football League - ESPN

I know what I see. I see a team that is not able to impose its will with the running game. You see what you want to see. Stats allow you to do that.

There are teams below our mid-level ranking who actually run for more YPC than we do. You know what that means you can do with your YPC right? Right. I think the younguns over at SR miss you. Later holmes.

AlaskaSaints · 09-29-2011, 06:54 PM

You run against an inferior defense. Of the last three games, all three were formative, therefore we were playing catch-up with the pass.

If the game is progressing in our favor, we'll see more running plays, but we have to score on our first or second series and get ahead!

But for God's sake, the game is not out of reach until we are up by 17 to 24 points. Keep scoring. I don't care if you do that with the run game or passing game.

Pedal to the metal for a full 60 minutes!

Alaska

CantonLegend · 09-29-2011, 07:01 PM

Originally Posted by saintfan

Here are some stats for you:

http://espn.go.com/nfl/statistics/team/_/stat/rushing"]2011 NFL Team Rushing Stats - National Football League - ESPN

I know what I see. I see a team that is not able to impose its will with the running game. You see what you want to see. Stats allow you to do that.

There are teams below our mid-level ranking who actually run for more YPC than we do. You know what that means you can do with your YPC right? Right. I think the younguns over at SR miss you. Later holmes.

ur looking at it completely wrong and SR has nothing to do with this

teams can run for more ypc but over the course of a season the teams that can run the ball effectively will show statistically. last year we managed over 4 ypc throughout the season and still didnt run the ball. that was supposedly because of injuries.

now we are healthy and are still doing well running the ball but fail to commit to it on any level.

stats allow me to use completely unbiased facts to support an opinion that ive come up with. u ignore the stats because they dont support an opinion that youve come up with...so find something else because so far it just sounds like ur wrong but wont admit it

AlaskaSaints · 09-29-2011, 07:05 PM

Well, if we have a 4.4 average YPC, then basically we win if we win the coin toss and don't fumble?

I think not.

Fact is, you don't run just to say you did. You run if and when it's effective or when you want to keep a pass-rushing defense honest.

I think we can improve our running game by getting Ingram a little Northeast and Northwest time, especially since we cannot stabilize our O-line. That way he benefits from blocking by TEs and other backs.

I firmly believe that WITH A HEAD OF STEAM, Mark Ingram will be a beast, but he needs to get forward of the line to explode.

I keep having nightmares of that last play against Green Bay...

Recurring nightmares...

Alaska

CantonLegend · 09-29-2011, 07:10 PM

Originally Posted by AlaskaSaints

Well, if we have a 4.4 average YPC, then basically we win if we win the coin toss and don't fumble?

I think not.

Fact is, you don't run just to say you did. You run if and when it's effective or when you want to keep a pass-rushing defense honest.

I think we can improve our running game by getting Ingram a little Northeast and Northwest time, especially since we cannot stabilize our O-line. That way he benefits from blocking by TEs and other backs.

I firmly believe that WITH A HEAD OF STEAM, Mark Ingram will be a beast, but he needs to get forward of the line to explode.

I keep having nightmares of that last play against Green Bay...

Recurring nightmares...

Alaska

of course you dont just run for the sake of running. however, we do need to establish some form of ground game. we turn the ball over so quickly with dropped passes or incompletions. at least with running the ball you can keep the ball.

something else of note is that we run more play actions than most other teams but we run the ball so few times. teams caught on last year and if we continue to play action without trying to run we are going to start seeing our sack totals go up again

saintfan · 09-29-2011, 07:11 PM

Originally Posted by CantonLegend

ur looking at it completely wrong and SR has nothing to do with this

teams can run for more ypc but over the course of a season the teams that can run the ball effectively will show statistically. last year we managed over 4 ypc throughout the season and still didnt run the ball. that was supposedly because of injuries.

now we are healthy and are still doing well running the ball but fail to commit to it on any level.

stats allow me to use completely unbiased facts to support an opinion that ive come up with. u ignore the stats because they dont support an opinion that youve come up with...so find something else because so far it just sounds like ur wrong but wont admit it

Thanks little man, but I don't need a lesson okay? Few people (if any) here do. The kids at SR may have caused you to think otherwise. You brought up YPC as your 'evidence', not me. I just showed you were you screwed up...with stats.

You can spin the stats any way you want. That's what people do with stats. That's why people have debated using them in ever facet of human history and why the debate will continue. A truly unbiased opinion considers that. You do not. I am and have been aware of this. But you aren't the only one. The internet is full of folks like that.

This isn't about me admitting I'm wrong or professing I'm right. We don't run the ball very well. If you're a numbers guy you can see that if by nothing else that looking at where we rank...by the numbers. Of course the numbers don't tell the whole story - they NEVER do - which most of us concede. Most of us...with a few noted exceptions...

The last few posts in this thread will show that to a reasonable person.

Now...looking at those stats I just pointed you to, I'd say the Raiders are a damn good running football team. In a league of 32, the Saints are middle of the pack. If that's good to you then okay. Clearly we have different standards with which we measure success. We struggle to run the ball when we need to. Period. Stats over the course of the season will show you that. Or you could just watch the game.

Either way I don't care what you do.

CantonLegend · 09-29-2011, 07:22 PM

Originally Posted by saintfan

Thanks little man, but I don't need a lesson okay? Few people (if any) here do. The kids at SR may have caused you to think otherwise. You brought up YPC as your 'evidence', not me. I just showed you were you screwed up...with stats.

You can spin the stats any way you want. That's what people do with stats. That's why people have debated using them in ever facet of human history and why the debate will continue. A truly unbiased opinion considers that. You do not. I am and have been aware of this. But you aren't the only one. The internet is full of folks like that.

This isn't about me admitting I'm wrong or professing I'm right. We don't run the ball very well. If you're a numbers guy you can see that if by nothing else that looking at where we rank...by the numbers. Of course the numbers don't tell the whole story - they NEVER do - which most of us concede. Most of us...with a few noted exceptions...

The last few posts in this thread will show that to a reasonable person.

Now...looking at those stats I just pointed you to, I'd say the Raiders are a damn good running football team. In a league of 32, the Saints are middle of the pack. If that's good to you then okay. Clearly we have different standards with which we measure success. We struggle to run the ball when we need to. Period. Stats over the course of the season will show you that. Or you could just watch the game.

Either way I don't care what you do.

what does SR have to do with anything? the majority of posters here have or have had an SR account. several posters were banned from SR and hold obvious grudges. maybe thats why you are so hateful towards them

ur biggest issue is you are comparing us to other teams around the league. who cares how many ypc the raiders have. the fact of the matter is that WE can do it successfully

5 ypc is an amazing average but 4 ypc is more than enough. teams that run more find more success running. its not necessarily because they are better at it. its more likely that the higher amount of attempts leads to more long runs. we rarely run so we cant establish any sort of consistancy or threat

Danno · 09-29-2011, 08:03 PM

Originally Posted by CantonLegend

New Orleans Saints Team Leaders | Teams | NFL.com

66 rushes for 288 yards

4.36 ypc which i rounded using my 4th grade math

either way it doesnt matter.

we can run the ball. we could last year too.

you know what the problem is? its that we just dont run

NFL.com, ESPN, and CBS all show 4.2 (77 rushes for 299) which by my math is actually 4.152 yards per carry, rounding up to 4.2, which places us 13th, or middle of the pack.

NFL Stats: by Team Category

Stats: NFL Rushing Offense - CBSSports.com

CantonLegend · 09-29-2011, 08:08 PM

Originally Posted by Danno

NFL.com, ESPN, and CBS all show 4.2 (77 rushes for 299) which by my math is actually 4.152 yards per carry, rounding up to 4.2, which places us 13th, or middle of the pack.

NFL Stats: by Team Category

Stats: NFL Rushing Offense - CBSSports.com

like i said. it really doesnt matter whether it 4.4 or 4.2

we can argue semantics all you want. 66 runs from our running backs. kneel downs and scrambles arent considered designef run plays although they show up in stats as runs.

our end around from meachem would only increase our ypc because it was a designed run

4+ypc is more than sufficient to be considered a solid run game

lumm0x · 09-29-2011, 08:09 PM

I'm gonna run the middle ground in this argument. We have yet to display a balanced attack. With the effectiveness of our passing attack you would expect that when we do run to mix things up in a drive it would have better results as defenses have to respect the pass. The issue is that we run almost exclusively in predictable situations. Yet we still manage respectable averages and results when doing so. I think we will see some games where the run game becomes dominant and Payton rides it. And also we will see many more where it stays the way it is, a secondary tool to our passing attack sometimes forgotten. Hopefully be seasons end Payton feels them both enough to have great balance and excel at all situations against opponents. We can do it....again.

09-29-2011, 06:53 PM	#21
saintfan Donated Plasma Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: San Francisco, CA Posts: 18,556 Blog Entries: 5	Originally Posted by CantonLegend you wanna debate then debate. you wanna pretend like ur right? defend ur stance with some facts that are going to back up ur claims Here are some stats for you: http://espn.go.com/nfl/statistics/team/_/stat/rushing"]2011 NFL Team Rushing Stats - National Football League - ESPN I know what I see. I see a team that is not able to impose its will with the running game. You see what you want to see. Stats allow you to do that. There are teams below our mid-level ranking who actually run for more YPC than we do. You know what that means you can do with your YPC right? Right. I think the younguns over at SR miss you. Later holmes.
	C'mon Man...

09-29-2011, 06:54 PM	#22
AlaskaSaints 1000 Posts + Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Anchorage, AK Posts: 2,484 Blog Entries: 2	You run against an inferior defense. Of the last three games, all three were formative, therefore we were playing catch-up with the pass. If the game is progressing in our favor, we'll see more running plays, but we have to score on our first or second series and get ahead! But for God's sake, the game is not out of reach until we are up by 17 to 24 points. Keep scoring. I don't care if you do that with the run game or passing game. Pedal to the metal for a full 60 minutes! Alaska
	HERE WE COME, TA GE' CHU!!!!

09-29-2011, 07:01 PM	#23
CantonLegend 1000 Posts + Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Canton, Ohio Posts: 2,685 Blog Entries: 2	Originally Posted by saintfan Here are some stats for you: http://espn.go.com/nfl/statistics/team/_/stat/rushing"]2011 NFL Team Rushing Stats - National Football League - ESPN I know what I see. I see a team that is not able to impose its will with the running game. You see what you want to see. Stats allow you to do that. There are teams below our mid-level ranking who actually run for more YPC than we do. You know what that means you can do with your YPC right? Right. I think the younguns over at SR miss you. Later holmes. ur looking at it completely wrong and SR has nothing to do with this teams can run for more ypc but over the course of a season the teams that can run the ball effectively will show statistically. last year we managed over 4 ypc throughout the season and still didnt run the ball. that was supposedly because of injuries. now we are healthy and are still doing well running the ball but fail to commit to it on any level. stats allow me to use completely unbiased facts to support an opinion that ive come up with. u ignore the stats because they dont support an opinion that youve come up with...so find something else because so far it just sounds like ur wrong but wont admit it
	"deal with it or you can go play the saints and get trounced by 30 and you won't have to worry about it."-colin cowherd

09-29-2011, 07:05 PM	#24
AlaskaSaints 1000 Posts + Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Anchorage, AK Posts: 2,484 Blog Entries: 2	Well, if we have a 4.4 average YPC, then basically we win if we win the coin toss and don't fumble? I think not. Fact is, you don't run just to say you did. You run if and when it's effective or when you want to keep a pass-rushing defense honest. I think we can improve our running game by getting Ingram a little Northeast and Northwest time, especially since we cannot stabilize our O-line. That way he benefits from blocking by TEs and other backs. I firmly believe that WITH A HEAD OF STEAM, Mark Ingram will be a beast, but he needs to get forward of the line to explode. I keep having nightmares of that last play against Green Bay... Recurring nightmares... Alaska
	HERE WE COME, TA GE' CHU!!!!

09-29-2011, 07:10 PM	#25
CantonLegend 1000 Posts + Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Canton, Ohio Posts: 2,685 Blog Entries: 2	Originally Posted by AlaskaSaints Well, if we have a 4.4 average YPC, then basically we win if we win the coin toss and don't fumble? I think not. Fact is, you don't run just to say you did. You run if and when it's effective or when you want to keep a pass-rushing defense honest. I think we can improve our running game by getting Ingram a little Northeast and Northwest time, especially since we cannot stabilize our O-line. That way he benefits from blocking by TEs and other backs. I firmly believe that WITH A HEAD OF STEAM, Mark Ingram will be a beast, but he needs to get forward of the line to explode. I keep having nightmares of that last play against Green Bay... Recurring nightmares... Alaska of course you dont just run for the sake of running. however, we do need to establish some form of ground game. we turn the ball over so quickly with dropped passes or incompletions. at least with running the ball you can keep the ball. something else of note is that we run more play actions than most other teams but we run the ball so few times. teams caught on last year and if we continue to play action without trying to run we are going to start seeing our sack totals go up again

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09-29-2011, 07:11 PM	#26
saintfan Donated Plasma Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: San Francisco, CA Posts: 18,556 Blog Entries: 5	Originally Posted by CantonLegend ur looking at it completely wrong and SR has nothing to do with this teams can run for more ypc but over the course of a season the teams that can run the ball effectively will show statistically. last year we managed over 4 ypc throughout the season and still didnt run the ball. that was supposedly because of injuries. now we are healthy and are still doing well running the ball but fail to commit to it on any level. stats allow me to use completely unbiased facts to support an opinion that ive come up with. u ignore the stats because they dont support an opinion that youve come up with...so find something else because so far it just sounds like ur wrong but wont admit it Thanks little man, but I don't need a lesson okay? Few people (if any) here do. The kids at SR may have caused you to think otherwise. You brought up YPC as your 'evidence', not me. I just showed you were you screwed up...with stats. You can spin the stats any way you want. That's what people do with stats. That's why people have debated using them in ever facet of human history and why the debate will continue. A truly unbiased opinion considers that. You do not. I am and have been aware of this. But you aren't the only one. The internet is full of folks like that. This isn't about me admitting I'm wrong or professing I'm right. We don't run the ball very well. If you're a numbers guy you can see that if by nothing else that looking at where we rank...by the numbers. Of course the numbers don't tell the whole story - they NEVER do - which most of us concede. Most of us...with a few noted exceptions... The last few posts in this thread will show that to a reasonable person. Now...looking at those stats I just pointed you to, I'd say the Raiders are a damn good running football team. In a league of 32, the Saints are middle of the pack. If that's good to you then okay. Clearly we have different standards with which we measure success. We struggle to run the ball when we need to. Period. Stats over the course of the season will show you that. Or you could just watch the game. Either way I don't care what you do.
	C'mon Man... Last edited by saintfan; 09-29-2011 at 07:14 PM..

09-29-2011, 07:22 PM	#27
CantonLegend 1000 Posts + Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Canton, Ohio Posts: 2,685 Blog Entries: 2	Originally Posted by saintfan Thanks little man, but I don't need a lesson okay? Few people (if any) here do. The kids at SR may have caused you to think otherwise. You brought up YPC as your 'evidence', not me. I just showed you were you screwed up...with stats. You can spin the stats any way you want. That's what people do with stats. That's why people have debated using them in ever facet of human history and why the debate will continue. A truly unbiased opinion considers that. You do not. I am and have been aware of this. But you aren't the only one. The internet is full of folks like that. This isn't about me admitting I'm wrong or professing I'm right. We don't run the ball very well. If you're a numbers guy you can see that if by nothing else that looking at where we rank...by the numbers. Of course the numbers don't tell the whole story - they NEVER do - which most of us concede. Most of us...with a few noted exceptions... The last few posts in this thread will show that to a reasonable person. Now...looking at those stats I just pointed you to, I'd say the Raiders are a damn good running football team. In a league of 32, the Saints are middle of the pack. If that's good to you then okay. Clearly we have different standards with which we measure success. We struggle to run the ball when we need to. Period. Stats over the course of the season will show you that. Or you could just watch the game. Either way I don't care what you do. what does SR have to do with anything? the majority of posters here have or have had an SR account. several posters were banned from SR and hold obvious grudges. maybe thats why you are so hateful towards them ur biggest issue is you are comparing us to other teams around the league. who cares how many ypc the raiders have. the fact of the matter is that WE can do it successfully 5 ypc is an amazing average but 4 ypc is more than enough. teams that run more find more success running. its not necessarily because they are better at it. its more likely that the higher amount of attempts leads to more long runs. we rarely run so we cant establish any sort of consistancy or threat
	"deal with it or you can go play the saints and get trounced by 30 and you won't have to worry about it."-colin cowherd

09-29-2011, 08:03 PM	#28
Danno Truth Addict Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Spanish Fort, AL (via NO and B/R) Posts: 24,646	Originally Posted by CantonLegend New Orleans Saints Team Leaders \| Teams \| NFL.com 66 rushes for 288 yards 4.36 ypc which i rounded using my 4th grade math either way it doesnt matter. we can run the ball. we could last year too. you know what the problem is? its that we just dont run NFL.com, ESPN, and CBS all show 4.2 (77 rushes for 299) which by my math is actually 4.152 yards per carry, rounding up to 4.2, which places us 13th, or middle of the pack. NFL Stats: by Team Category Stats: NFL Rushing Offense - CBSSports.com

09-29-2011, 08:08 PM	#29
CantonLegend 1000 Posts + Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Canton, Ohio Posts: 2,685 Blog Entries: 2	Originally Posted by Danno NFL.com, ESPN, and CBS all show 4.2 (77 rushes for 299) which by my math is actually 4.152 yards per carry, rounding up to 4.2, which places us 13th, or middle of the pack. NFL Stats: by Team Category Stats: NFL Rushing Offense - CBSSports.com like i said. it really doesnt matter whether it 4.4 or 4.2 we can argue semantics all you want. 66 runs from our running backs. kneel downs and scrambles arent considered designef run plays although they show up in stats as runs. our end around from meachem would only increase our ypc because it was a designed run 4+ypc is more than sufficient to be considered a solid run game

09-29-2011, 08:09 PM	#30
lumm0x Resident antediluvian Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 2,026	I'm gonna run the middle ground in this argument. We have yet to display a balanced attack. With the effectiveness of our passing attack you would expect that when we do run to mix things up in a drive it would have better results as defenses have to respect the pass. The issue is that we run almost exclusively in predictable situations. Yet we still manage respectable averages and results when doing so. I think we will see some games where the run game becomes dominant and Payton rides it. And also we will see many more where it stays the way it is, a secondary tool to our passing attack sometimes forgotten. Hopefully be seasons end Payton feels them both enough to have great balance and excel at all situations against opponents. We can do it....again.