Keyou is Hungry
 

Keyou is Hungry
 

Disappointing. I thought Craver could mature and develop into a good player. It also makes you wonder. As much as Haslett and Co. were drumming this guy up a year or two ago, to see him as a guy that isn\'t likely to last longer than this season... I have to sort of wonder about whether Haslett really thought this kid was that good or if he was just blowing smoke. Either way, it\'s not good. ;)

Let\'s see if Saintfan bites... there\'s shrimp on the end of that line.

Keyou is Hungry
 

Maybe he feels he has a better shot to make this team as a linebacker! :o
You know, he just might be on to something.

Keyou is Hungry
 

LOL...Ok, I\'ll bite. Keyou was a sort of risk was he not? Lot\'s of players are \"risks\" -- some turn out to be Super Stars and others just don\'t. There is no reward without risk eh Whodat?

Personally I thought (and still think) that Keyou could be a good player. I doubt he\'s the only guy in the NFL showing up a bit heavy. I seem to recall Norman Hand made a habit of it -- we tossed him and some folks in here were up in arms about it. I think the Seahawks just released him too.

I don\'t really think Keyou\'s coming into offseason workouts a bit heavy is an indictment of Jim Haslett Whodat. Do you?

Keyou is Hungry
 

Damn gatorman, that was a pretty heart-felt post. I got teary-eyed. damn good points though. Regardless of him being a possible risk, it doesnt mean we should just accept that we knew this could happen and let it go on un-noticed. If we are paying his damn bills, then he needs a kick in the ass and start earning the bling bling he has. The Saints have made some gutsy moves bringing in many risks, both good and bad, but we cant jus let him collect pay and not perform. I thought he has some promise still, i just hope he lives up to it. This year would be a great year to do it.

Keyou is Hungry
 

I agree with almost everything, except the part about Craver being highly touted. After all he was a 4th round pick. I think a lot of us HOPED he\'d develop into a really good CB but there was a reason he went from a 1st round projection to a 4th round pick. I believe its coming to the surface now. He appears to be a lazy slacker.
I had hopes for this kid, and at 190 lbs he may have delivered as a decent #2CB.
But if it is indeed Craver Haz is referring to, and he came into camp at 210-215, then that is totally unacceptable and should be disciplined accordingly. It probably cost Craver his entire career.
A bordeline CB with a lazy slacker attitude is definitely not long for this league.
You were given a second chance, and it appears you completely blew it Keyou.
Welcome to the arena league pal.

Keyou is Hungry
 

It appears as tho it has Gator, wouldn\'t you say? Now, what do you think Haz oughta do about it? Fine him? Cut him? Make him run laps? Tell him his mother is a two dollar whore?

Which punishment is appropriate, and which do you think will happen? I think we all care, by the way. If no one gave a green frog\'s flyin\' fat butt then none of us would be aware that Keyou (or someone) came in heavy to begin with...right?

So what\'s the issue? Haz drafted the guy and people are using this to insinuate he\'s not a good coach? Is that it?

Finally, I think you\'ll find that a whole lot of players are \"shipped our or let go\" because of issues not related to on the field performance...two of those issues would be attitude and Salary Cap, and I think you\'ll find that every NFL team has issues with both from time to time. ;)

Keyou is Hungry
 

http://tatge.vwmafia.net/Owned/failure.jpg

[Edited on 7/4/2004 by DatFu]

Keyou is Hungry
 

So lets be clear here Gatorman. Are you saying Keyou is directly responsible for his own actions or are you saying his actions are a result of his Coach being named Jim Haslett? I\'m still a bit unsure what your point is exactly...

Did Kerry Collins have a drinking problem because he was playing for a particular coach in Carolina? Did Brett Favre\'s drinking problem stem from a particular football coach he played for? Is Norman Hand\'s like for Chicken Wings his own problem or someone elses? What about Kyle Turley? He\'s a freakin\' jerk by most accounts. Am I to assume you think that\'s Haseltts fault too? Do any of us know the whole story behind the Willie Roaf fiasco? Why is it his name gets mentioned when people are raggin\' on Haslett?

Look man, I\'m not trying to blow sunshine here, and I\'m not saying Jim is the guy that\'ll take the Saints to the Superbowl -- and I\'m not saying he won\'t. These players are grown men...this ain\'t 10th grade and it ain\'t college. Might Keyou have been a bust as a 4th round pick? Pehaps. However, I think the Jury is still out on him. How many other teams have drafted guys in the 4th round only to see \'em fail? See, you seem to have decided that Haz needs to go. That\'s ok. I just don\'t think it\'s fair to make some of the assumtions you\'re making. There IS talent on the Saints team. If you disagree then fine. We\'ll just have to disagree. There aren\'t many players known for being instant stars Gatorman. It takes time.

Do you think Haz can\'t coach the talent he has or is it that you think he just doesn\'t have any talent on the team? I\'m not on the Haz bandwagon as much as you might think I am, but I sincerely hope some of his guys starting their 2nd or 3rd year show the improvement that many think they will. If that happens this year (and it\'s not at all out of the question) you\'ll be whistelin\' a different tune Gatorman.

Keyou is Hungry
 

I love it. A couple of lines and I spawn another one of these things. I should be given an award. ;) Love the debate so far by the way. Well thought out and intelligent posts. Glad to have you guys working again.

First, a couple of comments:

If you want to look at that by person (per capita), he\'s in the top 1 or 2% of wage earners.

Danno - I don\'t care what the media said. This guy was touted by OUR coach(es).


On to Saintfan, my favorite leader of the dark side. Great points sir. I am not suggesting that Craver\'s faults are a result of Jim Haslett directly. In fact, looking at this in a vacuum, in which one only considers the Craver case, makes your argument even stronger. Only problem is, we don\'t live in a vacuum.

When you consider the large number of players who don\'t seem to be developing well, when you consider the team\'s overall underperformance for the last three seasons, when you consider some suspect off-season moves since Mueller left, etc. etc. etc., this Craver business becomes just another piece in an ever-growing puzzle. This isn\'t an isolated incident. It\'s a consistent pattern and practice. This is Saints football under Jim Haslett.

Look, I can see only two options here. One - this is one of the most talented teams the organizations has ever seen and they have been underperforming for a long time now. If that is the case, your finger must first point at Haslett, Loomis, and/or Benson. Two - this team isn\'t nearly as talented as we all think it is. If that\'s the case, I still blame Haslett. I blame him for not making the appropriate moves to get the players we need under contract. I blame him for telling me this team is that talented. Either way Haslett is at the crux of the problem.

You continue to be patient. OK. I\'m not. I think asking 5 years to keep this type talent together is asking a lot. There are just too many \"big money\" guys. Tebucky, Howard, Grant, Sullivan, Bentley, Horn, McAllister, Brooks, Gandy, and maybe even Boo, Stallworth, a first round corner this season... that\'s a lot of big money contracts we\'re paying now, or will have to address soon. I just can\'t see us keeping all this talent intact, especially considering the turnover we\'ve had of recent. It\'s time for the Saints, and Jim Haslett, to put up or shut up. In fact, I\'d say we\'re past that time, but the decision to keep him has already been made. Jim now gets a FOURTH year to prove himself capable of taking a team with enough talent to go deep into the playoffs to any post-season at all. For the second year in a row, \'No More Excuses.\'

[Edited on 7/4/2004 by WhoDat]

Keyou is Hungry
 

Ok, I don\'t agree. Which players \"Don\'t Play For Him\"?

Ok. By Whom...other than Kyle (I\'m a complete jerk) Turley? Maybe you can be more specific about \"quite a bit\".

Ok...which player(s)? How Many? What did this player (or these players) say exactly? Because someone (or perhaps more than one -- still not sure) may have made such a comment are we to assume it\'s accurate? Players say lots of things. ;)

It\'s not really about refuting anything Gator, it\'s about weighing the relative importance of things with respect to Jim\'s ability to coach football. I think, as I have said before, that because he\'s the coach the buck must stop with Haz, so perhaps we agree there; however, I think folks are attempting to make him the skapegoat for things that, in my opinion, aren\'t necessarilly in his control because they want him fired for various reasons.

At this time you think (a) there is no talent on the Saints Roster (and you blame Haz for this) and (b) even if there was talent on the Roster Haz couldn\'t coach it. I happen to disagree on both counts.

Keyou is Hungry
 

I disagree on the former as well, but not the latter.

Let\'s assume you\'re right Saintfan. Let\'s assume this team is talented and Jim can coach. Why the .500 seasons for the last 3 years? Why no playoffs? Why performance below expectations? Special circumstances... every year for three straight years? When does special circumstances no longer become a valid argument and results are demanded or else? This season? Next? In three? Five?

Bottom line - at some point, all that othre crap stops mattering. You see a coach that has gotten everything he wanted who still doesn\'t have a team capable of, or performing at, the level that is expected. He has to go.

IMO, he\'s got this season, and he should feel lucky to have it. He damn well better make the best of it or he\'s done in NO and probably not going to be a head coach anywhere again any time soon.

[Edited on 8/4/2004 by WhoDat]

Keyou is Hungry
 

I agree with WhoDat

Keyou is Hungry
 

Gatorman, the more you try and explian why you hate Haz, the less factual you become. I could type here forever providing examples of good coaches that compare favoribly to Jim Haslett but what good will it do? You\'ve convinced yourself. This is fine.

However:

Don\'t insinuate this or that or the other and then get pissy when someone (me) calls you on it ok? I\'ve read where Kyle Turley (obviously upset for a variety of reasons) called the Saints a \"mickey mouse organization\" and THAT\'S IT. YOU stated the whole mickey mouse organization stuff \"Has come up quite a bit\" did you not? Define \"quite a bit\" for me before you ask me to prove otherwise...k?

So I have to search for players that have said the Saints aren\'t a Mickey Mouse organization because you and Kyle Turley think it is? umm, yeah, right, o-tay :casstet:

Bad luck isn\'t an excuse -- we agree there -- but it\'s a factor. If you don\'t think so then I\'m not sure what to tell you. No since in my trying to convince you. I know better.

Who\'s making Haslett a skapegoat? Well, you\'d be one. And by the way circumstantial evidence is just that...circumstantial. And why is it you always put a legal tilt on your argument. Are you studying to become a laywer? ;)

Dude, you can disagree all you want. That\'s your right (legally speaking of course). We happen to be on different sides of the fence.

Cool, so did I.
Not at all, I just don\'t think the team loses games solely because of AB. I never will in spite of what you, Whodat, and 08 try to sell me. This is a team sport, and since you\'ve \"played a little ball\" you\'re fully aware of that. My stance on Haz is similar. I recognize that there IS talent on this team...YOUNG talent. Further, it takes more than talent and a good coach...it takes luck too. You may disagree. But (legally speaking of course) that\'s ok.

Call me a defense attourney ok? I read all this speculation. I see ya\'ll making wild statements concerning the inner workings of the team as if some of you people are actually employed by the Saints and spend time in the locker room beside the players and coaches...if you know so much then PROVE IT TO ME. Otherwise don\'t be upset if I (or anyone else for that matter) ask you to show some evidence...evidence that isn\'t a theory...\"direct evidence\".

Finally, in the spirit of a good debate, I\'m not bein\' hostile to ya Gatorman. We disagree...and heaven knows that\'s nothing new. I hope and pray you\'re wrong because I like Haz. I think he\'s a good coach and I think the Saints are a good team moving up.

Indeed we can. But we ain\'t holdin\' hands, and that\'s final! :P

Keyou is Hungry
 

And I could compare him to just as many coaches who have failed in the NFL. Saying he compares favorably to other good coaches is like saying that Ryan Leaf compared favorably to Peyton Manning. How does he compare favorably Saintfan? Certainly not wins and losses, so how else? He\'s SUPPOSED to be tough. He\'s SUPPOSED to be a players coach. He\'s SUPPOSED to be this, that, and the other, but you don\'t play for him. How do you know? Sounds just as \'circumstantial\' as anything Gator is saying.


As to the Mickey Mouse argument, it\'s basically not worth arguing with you. Any player who speaks out against the Saints gets shipped off and you contribute their words to the \'disgrunted player\' tag. Kyle Turley spoke out WHILE he was a Saint. Joe Horn spoke out about the organization WHILE on the team. Roaf, Rickey Williams, Glover, Johnson... all spoke out against the organization. They might not have explicitly called the organization \'Mickey Mouse\', but they certainly alluded to bigger problems. That combined with some questionable offseason moves, underperforming teams, locker room cancers, late or early season collapses, the inability to perform consistently, etc, etc, etc... and it is reasonable for a person to say there\'s trouble in River City. But if you disagree, show me where one player OTHER than Aaron Brooks had favorable comments about the coaches and organization after being with the team in season. What players say when they sign doesn\'t count, b/c they have no experience with the team at that point.


I\'m just trying to understand your argument Saintfan. Is it that Haslett has a young team (by his own making), of talented players with lots of POTENTIAL, and he\'s just had bad luck? All of these guys are going to come around and the Saints are going to be great for years to come? That\'s a really nice thought, but show me a comparison of players who have developed under haslett vs those who have not. Then tell me all of these maybes will work out. And AGAIN, how long before you demand results?

What if the Saints go 7-9 this season Saintfan? Would you fire Haslett then?

Keyou is Hungry
 

T-rex had some really good things to say about the Saints and Haz.

If the Saints go 7-9???? IF IF IF...
What if we lose Deuce, Aaron, and Howard in the 1st game?
Then lose Grant, Bentley and Gandy in game 2?
The lose Thomas, Horn, Stallworth and Jones in Game 3?
And the Saints finish 7-9?
Yea, I\'d say he should be kept.

If we stay healthy (relative to the NFL average) then no, 7-9 won\'t cut it.

Keyou is Hungry
 

And IF they all get hurt again next year? And the year after? And the year after that?

Maybe Saintfan is right. Haslett is just like Ike in Tombstone. He\'s just unlucky.

Well maybe football isn\'t his game. I know, why don\'t we try a spelling bee?



Fine, Haslett is a great coach with terrible luck. Either way the team is suffering as a result of his ineptitude or bad luck. Bottom line is no playoffs. Let\'s go find another coach with a four-leaf clover behind his ear and a rabbit foot up his a$$. Then poor Jim Haslett\'s bad luck couldn\'t hurt us anymore.

[Edited on 9/4/2004 by WhoDat]

Keyou is Hungry
 

Ummm, No, Whodat, it\'s not even close...but nice try. ;)

How many of the players who left here had a particular problem with Jim Haslett Whodat? How many can you add up and be able to back it up? Turley? OK, that\'s one, but then he was pretty much pissed over money truth be known wouldn\'t you agree? His antics were of his own making. Haz didn\'t like \'em. Did you? If what players say when they sign doesn\'t count, how come what they say when they\'re asked to leave cause of attitude or the team\'s going in a different direction does according to you (and Gator)?

Which players haven\'t developed? How much time have these particular palyers had to develope, and how does that relate to other players at the same position who\'ve been in the league for the same amount of time?

If you have to put words in my mouth to facilitate your argument, what does that tell you about your argument Whodat...or am I typing to Gatorman here? WHAT have I said or attempted to say that was based on circumstantial evidence? I\'ve said I think Haz is a good coach, and I haven\'t mis-qouted anyone nor have I dreamed up false reasons to believe that. It\'s just my opinion. There\'s a big difference in that being my opinion and me trying to bend and twist the evidence to sway yours. ;)

Can you hear me now? Good.

Keyou is Hungry
 

No, but you haven\'t provided ANY grounds on which you base that statement. You have an interesting way of arguing Saintfan. You do nothing but ask questions of your opponent and then attack those answers. Never do you answer direct questions though. Rarely do you provide support to your argument.


As usual, I will answer your questions b/c I can. Maybe this time you\'ll answer some of mine.

Actually, it\'s just like that. What you have to judge Jim Haslet by is what he has on paper. You cannot compare him to the great coaches based on win/loss (READ RESULTS) b/c they\'re not as good. So you have a guy who SHOULD be leading this team to success but who isn\'t. Sounds a lot like Ryan Leaf to me.


Well Saintfan, the answer is really quite simple. I\'m sure you\'d know it if you stopped to think about it. When a player signs he hasn\'t experienced the organization at all. When he leaves he does so with first-hand knowledge of the inner workings of the team. Show me ANY player EVER who has said something bad about a team he just signed with. That\'s ridiculous. You\'re stretching Saintfan - I expect a better defense of your position than that.


How about Allen, Hodge, Grant, and Ruff. Those are ONLY our LINEBACKERS acquired in the last FEW years. Want more?


What words did I put in your mouth? Where in my post did I put words in your mouth? Show me. I\'d like a quote please.


Now, are you ready to answer any of my questions? Can you? I won\'t bother retyping them, they\'re all in the posts above. You know what they are, you expertly skirt them with each new post. Go ahead, take a shot at one or two of them. You can do it. ;)

Keyou is Hungry
 

My grounds Whodat, are my opinions. That is all. I don\'t try and support my opinion via the myths you and Gatorman and Saintz08 attempt to verify your OPINIONS with. Again, there is a LARGE difference. It\'s not your opinions whodat, its that you attempt to force-feed the rest of us with nonesense in an attempt to vaildate them.

Ok, point taken. Now tell me who all these disgruntled players are. Other than Kyle Turley who\'s doing the talking beside you and Gatorman? Understand yet? Gator tosses up the Mickey Mouse statement by Turley and insinuates it\'s being said over and over again by people and acts as if I must have missed it. Who are they Whodat, and you and 08 don\'t count. ;)

Which players are you comparing these guys to? Who\'s their coach and how is their coach making them better players. Any other players on the Saints roster you care to bring up where you might be able to make a FAIR comparison? Get it yet?

When you say \"tough\" and \"a players coach\" and then ask me how I know you are inferring that I said those things. I didn\'t. How does it feel to be busted. ;)

Keyou is Hungry
 

Fun, fun, fun.

Myths? Nonsense? I\'m using results, statistics, comments made by players, the media, etc. to support my opinion. And no where did I say I was right. I said it was my opinion. By your own statements, you seem to support your opinion with little more than pixie dust and Who Tang. You get into Billy\'s supply there did ya? Good argument. He\'s a good coach b/c I say so and I don\'t need anything else to support that.

If you read my posts you\'d know. Off the top of my head this morning I gave you a list of five PRO BOWLERS and one other starter who spoke out against this organization: \"Kyle Turley spoke out WHILE he was a Saint. Joe Horn spoke out about the organization WHILE on the team. Roaf, Rickey Williams, Glover, Johnson... all spoke out against the organization. \"

I still haven\'t seen your list of players who have had good things to say about the team while on it or after they left. Is that coming anytime soon? LMAO.

I\'m comparing them to other linebackers in the league. These guys are basically trash up to date. You want to make a \'fair\' comparison? Go ahead. You suggest a player and we will compare him to whomever you like. You have about 3 or 4 guys in your bag Saintfan. You\'ve got Aaron, Deuce, Horn, and Bentley. I have the rest of the freakin\' team, but go ahead, suggest a guy to compare and who you would rate him against.

It might feel bad to be busted, had you busted me. Unfortunately, you didn\'t. You see, I didn\'t ever claim you said those things. If I did, please show me the inference Saintfan. That is what he has been called in the media, no? Coincidentally, do you disagree with those tags? If so, what type of coach is he Saintfan? Next time you accuse someone of something, be sure you\'ve got the facts straight. Never once did I insinuate in any way that you had said those things. Don\'t worry about finding the quote, I\'ll post it again for you.

\"He\'s SUPPOSED to be tough. He\'s SUPPOSED to be a players coach. He\'s SUPPOSED to be this, that, and the other, but you don\'t play for him. How do you know? Sounds just as \'circumstantial\' as anything Gator is saying. \"

Nowhere in there did I say you said those things. I\'m suggesting that Gator is doing what every person on this board does - taking information from a source (the media/analysts in this case) and applying it as true. You are the one who is always reminding us that we don\'t play for the guy so how do we know that to be true? You discount the media and everyone else who speaks out against Haslett or Brooks as being second-party observers. You discount those who did play for him as disgruntled. Yet you can\'t show any evidence to the contradicts reports in the media or from players\' mouths. Well I just turned your own argument against you and you don\'t even see it. Instead, you think I\'m insinuating you said something. I\'m not suggesting that, nor have I ever.

Hey Saintfan, here\'s an easy one. See if you can skirt it again - $10 says you can.

What if the Saints go 7-9 this season Saintfan? Would you fire Haslett then?

[Edited on 9/4/2004 by WhoDat]

Keyou is Hungry
 

FINALLY!!!! With the influx of new members, this topic is one that has made this ole place feel like home again. :D

Keyou is Hungry
 

everybody is gettin

http://tatge.vwmafia.net/Owned/cat.jpg

Keyou is Hungry
 

To steal a line from Danno...\"What if, what if, what if\".

What if they go 12-4 Whodat? You gonna apologize?

Now, lots of players speak out about the team they\'re on or the team they\'ve just left and they do it for a variety of reasons -- usually money (see Kyle Turley) -- you\'d agree or disagree? I don\'t see anything said by any of the previous Saints players you mentioned as an indictment of Jim Haslett. You toss that stuff up in the air Whodat, but it ain\'t sticking. Rather than say this player said this or that player said that, why don\'t you go get some quotes and bring \'em back here and then show me how/why those quotes are a direct reflection on Jim Hasletts ability to coach a football team.

Joe Horn says lots of things...you\'d agree? I seem to recall he apologized too. Rekon why he did that...hmmmmmm ??
Johnson was upset at da Mule was he not? I don\'t think it was Haz. If I\'m wrong, show me I\'m wrong.
What did Glover say? I don\'t recall any quotable quotes from him. Can you find one for me?
Williams? What did he say? I remember his being upset, but then he\'s been a basket case from day one. I do remember that he said some stuff, but I can\'t recall what it was. I seem to think the offense was going in a different direction. The first thing players do when they want out is go public with their \"issues\". See \"TO\" for the model. You don\'t believe everything you read do ya?


Finally, I don\'t have to suggest players with which to make a comparison. This issue is yours Whodat. I issued the challenge to you. You might wanna just put in back in my lap and say, \"No, I won\'t do that, but here, YOU do it\". Nice try, but if you\'re gonna make the assumptions then it\'s up to YOU to prove it...not me. This is how the grownup world works. Ask Gatorman...he\'s the legal begal \'round here! ;)

Gatorman --

A few posts back you said the Saints had NO talent and Haz couldn\'t coach. Then you changed your position and said you DO think the Saints have talent. See my point there? Either you do or you don\'t. And whichever you believe is OK by me, but pick a side of the fence.

Again, to sum up my whole reason for continuing this nonesense I\'ll quote myself from a previous post in this thread...

I didn\'t say has was a good coach, I said \"I THINK\" he\'s a good coach. That\'s my opinion. You two are quite welcome to think otherwise. My issue with both of you is the inferrences you attempt to make to support your views. I really don\'t care what ya\'ll think about Haz. I does tick me off tho when you guys make broad, general statements and spin \'em as proof when the reality of the situation is the statements you make are as \"up for debate\" as the opinions you\'re trying to prove with \'em. :casstet:

Keyou is Hungry
 

Here is one too think on Saintsfan , read it awhile back . Coaches are generally responsible for teaching players technique , execution and position .

http://www.ernietheattorney.net/erni..._qb_aaron.html

If executing off sides , false starts and air ball incompletions was a positive stat , Haslett would be in the hall of fame rather then the hall of shame ... ;)

Keyou is Hungry
 

I can\'t argue that with you 08, but let me make a point. Think about Tebucky Jones. He has problems making tackles...he improved as the year went on, but I think we\'d all agree there were issues with his fundamentals.

OK, who gets the blame for that? Haz? Jim had him on the roster last year...and that\'s it. Why didn\'t that coach up in New England teach him how to tackle -- and isn\'t he God\'s gift to coaching? What about his coach in college? What about the guy that coached him in High School?

Certain people are far too eager to blame certain other people...that is my opinion, and the above statement is merely an example.

By the way, who are you quoting? \"Earnie the Attorney\"? LOL...ok...so \"Earnie the Attorney\" says Haz can\'t coach and the Saints don\'t deserve to go to the playoffs because Books fumbled the ball? I sometimes have a hard time believing you\'re serious 08.

Maybe if you could quote someone with some credentials I might be more inclined to read it seriously. Is \"Earnie the Attorney\" Gatormans alias? J/K Gator...it was there on the tee -- I had to swing at it! ;)

Keyou is Hungry
 

How does he get the pictures in his posts?

Keyou is Hungry
 

Actually, Saintfan ....What if, what if, what if came for Scott Stapp of Creed lol

Keyou is Hungry
 

That\'s interesting that you say that, you\'ve made a living out of doing just that on this site. I gave it back to you in this thread and I still answered more direct questions than you did. Amazing how skewed some perceptions are.

Enough of this - if the Saints go 12-4 I WILL apologize. And when they go 7-9 I\'ll expect to hear more from you about how Haslett is a great coach who just has bad luck. LMAO.

Keyou is Hungry
 

Time will tell Whodat. I\'ve dined on Crow before. So, too, have you. I\'ll meet ya back here in January. ;)

Keyou is Hungry
 

The Saints have no talent...

Wait, I really do think the Saints have talent...

Sounds like a fence-rider to me! ;)

Keyou is Hungry
 

I\'m a little confused by my favorite arch rival.

Correct me if I\'m wrong Lord Vader, but you think the Saints have a lot of talent, correct? More so than most Saints teams of old right?

You also believe Haslett is a good coach correct?

So what is the problem? Good coach, talented team - where\'s the beef Saintfan? Is your stance now seriously just bad luck over the last three seasons? I\'m not trying to argue, simply trying to clarify, Darth. Show me the Dark Side.

Keyou is Hungry
 

Anytime Chewbacca ;)

It is my opinion that indeed the Saints are a talented team. How Gatorman could think differently is beyond me (and so too is it beyond me that you\'d attemt to defend such a statement, cause regardless of our difference of opinion you do often times appear to have a clue) regardless of what he thinks of Haz\'s ability to coach. Further I think Haz has been instrumental in aquiring his fair share of that talent.

I have already gone on record (a legal-esk statement ;) ) as stating that it is my opinion that the Saints are a young team that needs to learn how to win. And yes, Whodat, I do think the Saints had terrible luck particularly last year. Absolutely NOTHING seemed to work out for \'em...from injuries to freak officiating to seldom (if ever) missed extra points. You just can\'t lay the blame in Haslett\'s lap for all the strange little occurances...well, maybe you can \'cause you want him gone, but I try and be a bit more fair a partial in my assesment of the situation.

Don\'t assume that I think Haz is the best football coach to ever have lived. I never said that. Do I think he can take the Saints to the Superbowl? You bet I do. Do I think his job will be/should be in jeapordy if the Saints tank the upcoming season. You bet I do. I\'m just trying to be fair. I\'m trying to take all things into account minus an agenda. You SHOULD know me better by now Chewie. LOL

Keyou is Hungry
 

Creed sucks. Buncha Pearl Jam wannabees if you ask me...but that\'s just my opinion. Heartless cookie cutter \"wish we had some real talent\" buncha buffons...LOL

:P

Keyou is Hungry
 

For once, I agree with Saintfan...Creed sucks. :D

Keyou is Hungry
 

http://tatge.vwmafia.net/Owned/ownedballs2.jpg

Keyou is Hungry
 

So what you are questioning if I get this correct Saintsfan is Tebucky Jones ?? I find a certain irony in the Jones debate .

Belichick assesses that Jones will never live up too the potential of the cap hit the Patriots are going to take with him on the roster and proceeds to trade him to the first team willing to take him . Belichick then goes on to win his second Super Bowl .

Haslett assesses that Jones is the answer at the Safety position and quickly makes the trade and renegotiates a contract to keep Jones in New Orleans . Haslett then finds out that Jones takes improper angles and misses tackles .Haslett finishes the season at 8-8 .

This is called Talent Evaluation another key element of the coaching position . A good coach makes a good player great , unfortunately a good player does not make a good coach great ... ;)

Keyou is Hungry
 

Well me being a musician......To say Creed sucks and to compare them to Pearl Jam thats just Crazy.... Creed has sold more alblums on one record than all of Pearl Jams combined...But sorry to stray from the topic of the forum ;)

Keyou is Hungry
 

SAINTFAN:

I didn\'t defend that statement. In fact, I blatantly disagreed with it in two posts. This is the most talented team in Saints history. Which is why our .500 finishes are infuriating and make me question Haslett\'s ability.



Do I get to blame lack of discipline on him? Lots of penalties (which we all know thanks to Billy hurt as much as turnovers), dropped passes, missed blocks, fumbles, inability to stop the run... that had nothing to do with Haslett? What about Bellicheck? He had almost as many injuries as we did. I don\'t hear him using them as a crutch - oh right, that\'s b/c he won the Super Bowl DESPITE setbacks.



Don\'t think I won\'t remember this one Vader! ;)


GATOR:
AMEN.


08:
FANTASTIC! I applaud you 08. Best post I\'ve seen in a while.



And finally, back to Saintfan (AND DANNO) - listen man, I try to be fair just like you do. You can say I have an agenda, if that\'s what you feel. You\'re right. My agenda is to see the Saints win. I want that to happen more than I value any player or coach. If I think a player is a coach is a problem I\'m going to say it. I say that b/c I feel someone is hurting the TEAM, not b/c I don\'t like the person. I don\'t know Jim Haslett. I don\'t care one way or the other about him except as he affects the New Orleans Saints. Right now I think he hurts them, and I would like to see someone else. Why can\'t you respect that just like I respect your opinion and decision to support him? Sure I ask questions and sling a little of this or that at you from time to time, but I don\'t question your motives.


In any case, Haslett has a very talented team thanks mostly to the moves made in 2000 and the drafts before Meuller left. Loomis and Haslett haven\'t done much in FA the last two years and there has certainly been a big need to act. This team is talented enough to have made the playoffs but there is always something. They\'re undisciplined, there are locker room problems, they\'re worked too hard early in the season and are fatigued late in the year. Bottom line, Haslett has not had a season since 2000 where the team did not go 3-5 in one half of the year. All of that shows a problem with the coach. Not the players, the coach. It\'s one guy, or a couple, it is not the entire 53 man roster that is pulling Haslett down. It\'s quite the opposite.

[Edited on 13/4/2004 by WhoDat]

Keyou is Hungry
 

Over and above the fact that you can\'t count:


I took a break from posting here for a while Gatorman because of \"know-it-alls\" such as yourself if you need to know the truth (not that you\'d recognize it if it bit you on the azz), and as long as we\'re on the subject -- tell me -- what does it feel like to get banned for being a jerk who couldn\'t hold his tounge? I voted for your reinstatement too as I recall. That was my last sip of 08er-aid too now that I think about it. :P

You and Whodat can call me all the clever little names you can dream up, but that doesn\'t change the fact that the two of you manipulate the truth and Spin it to suit your agenda. Now, go back to the sandbox and play nicely. 08 needs a playmate. ;)