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Saints donít think Mark Ingram will be 100 percent when camp starts

this is a discussion within the Saints Community Forum; Originally Posted by burningmetal when we were already crowded in the backfield. . Crowded in the backfield? Where were you in the end of 2010, when we were frantically signing running backs off the street, guys who were stadium security ...

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Old 05-16-2012, 09:59 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by burningmetal View Post
when we were already crowded in the backfield. .

Crowded in the backfield? Where were you in the end of 2010, when we were frantically signing running backs off the street, guys who were stadium security guards and RB's who were sitting on the couch after being dropped from other teams' practice squads? The only thing that was crowded was the IR list (5 running backs on IR). So, the extremely logical move for the Saints at that point, to prevent it from happening again, was to sign a big, bruising, forward-falling SEC type power running back. Sure, lots of guys win the Heisman and go on to be busts in the pros, but not too many guys win the Heisman and a national championship in the same year -- the last one to do that was Tony Dorsett, so the kid is in pretty good company.
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Old 05-16-2012, 10:47 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by SaintsBro View Post
Crowded in the backfield? Where were you in the end of 2010, when we were frantically signing running backs off the street, guys who were stadium security guards and RB's who were sitting on the couch after being dropped from other teams' practice squads? The only thing that was crowded was the IR list (5 running backs on IR). So, the extremely logical move for the Saints at that point, to prevent it from happening again, was to sign a big, bruising, forward-falling SEC type power running back. Sure, lots of guys win the Heisman and go on to be busts in the pros, but not too many guys win the Heisman and a national championship in the same year -- the last one to do that was Tony Dorsett, so the kid is in pretty good company.
True. At that time we had Reggie, who we weren't going to keep
Julius Jones
DeShawn Wynn
Joique Bell

PT and Ivory were out with serious injuries. Ivory's LizFranc is often a career ender.

Where do people get this "we were loaded at RB" crap from?
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Old 05-16-2012, 11:08 AM   #13
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May, June, July, August...
I think he'll be OK. There is no rush to get him back.
I'd rather see him fully recovered and healthy long term,
than to have him gingerly trying to avoid that knee and rip the other one.
I've seen it time and time again.
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Old 05-17-2012, 04:03 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by SaintsBro View Post
Crowded in the backfield? Where were you in the end of 2010, when we were frantically signing running backs off the street, guys who were stadium security guards and RB's who were sitting on the couch after being dropped from other teams' practice squads? The only thing that was crowded was the IR list (5 running backs on IR). So, the extremely logical move for the Saints at that point, to prevent it from happening again, was to sign a big, bruising, forward-falling SEC type power running back. Sure, lots of guys win the Heisman and go on to be busts in the pros, but not too many guys win the Heisman and a national championship in the same year -- the last one to do that was Tony Dorsett, so the kid is in pretty good company.
Yes, that was due to injuries. But they all came back. Then we go and draft another injury prone back... That's my point, and it couldn't have been made more clearly. And by the way, Joique Bell was quite impressive in camp and preseason as a power runner, who also displayed pretty good speed and outstanding vision. But he didn't make it because they had already committed to Ingram by virtue of drafting him in the 1st round.

Your description of Ingram as a bruising, forward falling SEC back is your view of him. I specifically said that I didn't see anything about him that was worthy of trading up for, and I meant it. He is really not a bruiser, in my opinion. If he gets a head of steam he can plow a little bit, but he gets stood up at the line a lot, which is not a sign of a true power back. A lot was made of that scrimmage last year when he knocked Harper over... but after that, I don't recall anything that resembled that play. I know he was a rookie, but his durability is a problem right now, and that is not a good answer to a backfield that had injury problems the year before. I think he'll develop enough to be a decent player, but I don't think he's a need guy. Just my two cents.

If I had a nickel for every time I heard that, the NFL would fine and suspend me.
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Old 05-17-2012, 04:14 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by x626xBlack View Post
I do not disagree with his performance last year. I do cut him a little slack due to the nature of his rookie season.

A rookie year is a transition year for any player. A rookie year with no OTA's, mini camp, preseason training just makes "finding a groove" that much more difficult.

Last year he averaged 3.9 YPC which puts him right in line with Chris Johnson, Amahd Bradshaw.. Which is also better than Addai, Jacobs, Green-Ellis and Tomlinson....

If you are looking at TD's well, that is a function of utilization.. But he was still in line with PThomas, Jackson, and Blount.

So what exactly about his rookie season was so terrible? Spreading the ball like we do also does not help someone have a stellar rookie year.
Well I agree that spreading the ball around doesn't help his stats, but to answer your question, it isn't his number of yards or touchdowns that failed to impress me. He didn't run with much authority, but for a few nice runs that were good to see. He didn't display good vision, and that was the number one thing that was always said about him in college, was his vision, so that was disappointing. I understand not being used to the system and the speed of this level, but when you have a hole and fail to see it or hit it with much authority, that's just plain not getting it done.

And the RB's you mentioned with their YPC last year, with the exception of Johnson and Bradshaw, are all well past their prime. And though Johnson and Bradshaw are still young and obviously are talented, there is no denying that they had very disappointing seasons. Especially Johnson. So, the fact that Ingram's average per carry was comparable to theirs was not really a good thing. But again, it wasn't really the raw statistics that bothered me as much as the fact that he looked slow, and seemed to run with tunnel vision at times.

Lastly, the nagging injuries weren't too encouraging.

If I had a nickel for every time I heard that, the NFL would fine and suspend me.
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Old 05-17-2012, 04:50 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by Danno View Post
True. At that time we had Reggie, who we weren't going to keep
Julius Jones
DeShawn Wynn
Joique Bell

PT and Ivory were out with serious injuries. Ivory's LizFranc is often a career ender.

Where do people get this "we were loaded at RB" crap from?
If you believe it's "crap" that some of us, such as myself, said we were crowded or loaded at RB, then consider this: We finished 6th in the league in rushing yards per game. Our leading rusher was Darren Sproles with 603 yards... On only 87 carries (That still boggles my mind). When you are 6th in the entire league in rushing and your leading rusher only has 603 yards, it means a lot of guys are contributing. They were all hurt the year before, but they all came back - with the exception of Bush being traded, but obviously we replaced him nicely - and played very well.

Ivory had 374 yards and averaged 4.7 per carry.
Thomas had 562 yards and averaged 5.1
Sproles, as mentioned, had 603 yards and averaged 6.9
Ingram had 474 yards and averaged 3.9.... If he weren't on the team, the other three could have easily picked up the slack, and did just that when he missed all those games.

Then you add the forgotten man in all this, Joique Bell, who was the most impressive RB in camp, but didn't make the cut, and that sounds like a pretty crowded backfield. I'm all for depth, but they gave Pierre a pretty hefty deal for a guy coming off injury, so they obviously had faith in him. Then came the Sproles Signing after drafting Ingram. I loved the Sproles sign, and obviously it turned out even better than we could have imagined, but it makes the Ingram pick in the middle seem pretty weird. You don't usually draft for depth in the first round. But they sure did that time.

If I had a nickel for every time I heard that, the NFL would fine and suspend me.
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Old 05-17-2012, 08:18 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by burningmetal View Post
If you believe it's "crap" that some of us, such as myself, said we were crowded or loaded at RB, then consider this: We finished 6th in the league in rushing yards per game. Our leading rusher was Darren Sproles with 603 yards... On only 87 carries (That still boggles my mind). When you are 6th in the entire league in rushing and your leading rusher only has 603 yards, it means a lot of guys are contributing. They were all hurt the year before, but they all came back - with the exception of Bush being traded, but obviously we replaced him nicely - and played very well.

Ivory had 374 yards and averaged 4.7 per carry.
Thomas had 562 yards and averaged 5.1
Sproles, as mentioned, had 603 yards and averaged 6.9
Ingram had 474 yards and averaged 3.9.... If he weren't on the team, the other three could have easily picked up the slack, and did just that when he missed all those games.

Then you add the forgotten man in all this, Joique Bell, who was the most impressive RB in camp, but didn't make the cut, and that sounds like a pretty crowded backfield. I'm all for depth, but they gave Pierre a pretty hefty deal for a guy coming off injury, so they obviously had faith in him. Then came the Sproles Signing after drafting Ingram. I loved the Sproles sign, and obviously it turned out even better than we could have imagined, but it makes the Ingram pick in the middle seem pretty weird. You don't usually draft for depth in the first round. But they sure did that time.

You aren't comprehending. At the time we drafted Ingram, we were not loaded at RB.

Again, and again, and again...

No one knew if Ivory would ever play another down of NFL football,

PT missed 11 games with an ankle injury, and then had surgery on it,

Everyone knew Bush was gone.

We did not have Darren Sproles.

We had one healthy RB on the roster with potential, and he was claimed off of another team's practice squad.

So yes, claiming we were loaded at RB when we drafted Ingram is what I call "crap". Actually I'd call it something else but our word filters would asterisk it.
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Old 05-17-2012, 10:39 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by Danno View Post
You aren't comprehending. At the time we drafted Ingram, we were not loaded at RB.

Again, and again, and again...

No one knew if Ivory would ever play another down of NFL football,

PT missed 11 games with an ankle injury, and then had surgery on it,

Everyone knew Bush was gone.

We did not have Darren Sproles.

We had one healthy RB on the roster with potential, and he was claimed off of another team's practice squad.

So yes, claiming we were loaded at RB when we drafted Ingram is what I call "crap". Actually I'd call it something else but our word filters would asterisk it.
Exactly 100%. No one knew they would all come back. PT's injury was a situation like, WTF is going on there, nobody really knew if he would be back AT ALL. We weren't "loaded" at RB and Ingram's "not a need guy"? It was a GLARING NEED, as the second half of the Seahawks playoff game indicated.

And Ingram wasn't drafted just for "depth," at all. He was drafted for the future -- ie 2-3-4 years down the road from now. To me, I see him as being drafted to eventually replace either Ivory or Pierre, down the road, very much the same way that Pierre and Aaron Stecker were sort of battling it out behind Deuce as Deuce McAllister was going downhill in his last days. If he works out, I see Ingram as a solid reliable guy that Drew is going to be handing off a lot to, in Drew's twilight years, after Pierre is gone.

Ingram's also a NON-FUMBLING kind of guy, which I'm sure makes him attractive to Payton, next to Ivory and some of the others who fumble all over the place. You pretty much have to break a knee or ankle or knock him totally unconscious to get Pierre Thomas to fumble. They like that. Some of Ivory's fumbles look like he is throwing the ball at the other team. They don't like that.

I think Payton has basically two kinds of running backs that he works with -- there are guys he trusts and "hangs his hat on," like Deuce, Pierre, Sproles. And then there are the guys he just kind of plugs in there, to see what they can do, or to get whatever he can get out of them. "Throw 'em against the wall to see what sticks" kind of guys. That's your Chris Ivory, PJ Hill, Joique Bell, Mike Bell, Lynell Hamilton, Aaron Stecker type Saints running back. And yes, I love him but I don't think Ivory has quite made it onto that "guys Payton trusts" list just yet.

Those guys go in and out of the doghouse, on again off again, Payton gets interested, but then it's kinda like he gets ADD, and he gives up on them pretty quickly and moves on. But on the other hand, Deuce, Thomas and Sproles, he never gives up on those guys, they are clearly HIS guys.

Pierre started out as one of those plug-and-play guys, but worked his way up to being someone that Payton really trusts. But I see Ingram as eventually being more of that type of guy, a guy Payton can hang his hat on. Maybe he's not living up to your extremely high expectations right now, this very instant -- we do live in an instant gratification world -- but he is definitely a "need" guy based on the lack of viable running backs at the end of the Seattle fiasco.
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Old 05-17-2012, 05:32 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by Danno View Post
You aren't comprehending. At the time we drafted Ingram, we were not loaded at RB.

Again, and again, and again...

No one knew if Ivory would ever play another down of NFL football,

PT missed 11 games with an ankle injury, and then had surgery on it,

Everyone knew Bush was gone.

We did not have Darren Sproles.

We had one healthy RB on the roster with potential, and he was claimed off of another team's practice squad.

So yes, claiming we were loaded at RB when we drafted Ingram is what I call "crap". Actually I'd call it something else but our word filters would asterisk it.
I am comprehending. We signed Thomas to a five year deal, which means they thought he'd be fine. And as for Ivory, there were already reports that he was healing well, unlike some people with his injury. And if they hadn't Drafted Ingram, they would most likely has re-signed Bush. Bush didn't start his whining till after we drafted Ingram. but the very fact that they signed Pierre to a 5 year deal, means that you're committing a lot to that guy and obviously they thought he was healthy, so drafting a RB in the first round as depth when everyone knew our defense sucked was not smart. And you failed to mention Joique Bell, who could have been a more than serviceable third or fourth back. You don't draft guys that high on a possibility that some guy might not come back healthy. It's all about priorities.

I am well aware that Sproles came after Ingram, and I said that. It's the fact that they signed Thomas to that 5 year deal, and Sproles to a 4 year deal that makes drafting Ingram in between seem pointless. Because if they thought Ingram was so great, why Sign Sproles? Don't misunderstand, the signing of Sproles was brilliant, I loved it, and it worked out great. But it made Ingram unnecessary. I love that we have a lot of backs, but I'm speaking in retrospect... We had a need for defense, but instead we traded up to get a RB and in the process lost our first round pick this year.

And yes, if we'd had that first rounder it would have been taken away by Goodell, but again, this is in retrospect. Even so, we would have probably been able to keep the second round pick in that scenario. Instead we got neither. As everything turned out, Ingram looks like a very dumb pick now, but I never liked it in the first place. You guys can disagree with me all you want, and that's cool, but I'm calling it like I see it.

If I had a nickel for every time I heard that, the NFL would fine and suspend me.
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Old 05-17-2012, 05:56 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by SaintsBro View Post
Exactly 100%. No one knew they would all come back. PT's injury was a situation like, WTF is going on there, nobody really knew if he would be back AT ALL. We weren't "loaded" at RB and Ingram's "not a need guy"? It was a GLARING NEED, as the second half of the Seahawks playoff game indicated.

And Ingram wasn't drafted just for "depth," at all. He was drafted for the future -- ie 2-3-4 years down the road from now. To me, I see him as being drafted to eventually replace either Ivory or Pierre, down the road, very much the same way that Pierre and Aaron Stecker were sort of battling it out behind Deuce as Deuce McAllister was going downhill in his last days. If he works out, I see Ingram as a solid reliable guy that Drew is going to be handing off a lot to, in Drew's twilight years, after Pierre is gone.

Ingram's also a NON-FUMBLING kind of guy, which I'm sure makes him attractive to Payton, next to Ivory and some of the others who fumble all over the place. You pretty much have to break a knee or ankle or knock him totally unconscious to get Pierre Thomas to fumble. They like that. Some of Ivory's fumbles look like he is throwing the ball at the other team. They don't like that.

I think Payton has basically two kinds of running backs that he works with -- there are guys he trusts and "hangs his hat on," like Deuce, Pierre, Sproles. And then there are the guys he just kind of plugs in there, to see what they can do, or to get whatever he can get out of them. "Throw 'em against the wall to see what sticks" kind of guys. That's your Chris Ivory, PJ Hill, Joique Bell, Mike Bell, Lynell Hamilton, Aaron Stecker type Saints running back. And yes, I love him but I don't think Ivory has quite made it onto that "guys Payton trusts" list just yet.

Those guys go in and out of the doghouse, on again off again, Payton gets interested, but then it's kinda like he gets ADD, and he gives up on them pretty quickly and moves on. But on the other hand, Deuce, Thomas and Sproles, he never gives up on those guys, they are clearly HIS guys.

Pierre started out as one of those plug-and-play guys, but worked his way up to being someone that Payton really trusts. But I see Ingram as eventually being more of that type of guy, a guy Payton can hang his hat on. Maybe he's not living up to your extremely high expectations right now, this very instant -- we do live in an instant gratification world -- but he is definitely a "need" guy based on the lack of viable running backs at the end of the Seattle fiasco.
Yes, we had Pierre and Stecker when Deuce was going downhill. How high did we draft them? What did we give up to get them? Pierre was undrafted and Stecker, I'm pretty sure he wasn't either, but either way we signed him from another team at a very low cost.

This is the point I'm making. You don't draft a RB for 3 or 4 years down the road. RB's typically have very short careers, so if you're drafting a guy in the 1st, he better be the guy this year or next. Otherwise find a RB later in the draft. Yeah, I know, we lost in Seattle and had no RB's. None of those guys suffered career enders. Ivory was the biggest question mark, but by the time the draft rolled around, he was doing a lot better, so there was no reason to think he wouldn't be back. And as I said to Danno above, they wouldn't have given Thomas a 5 year deal if they thought he was done. Frankly they wouldn't have if they thought he was even close to done. I get where you're coming from about the injuries the previous year, but there was no reason to assume that all those guys wouldn't be back. Injuries happen, it's the game. You can plan a million years ahead if you'd like. But you can't control what happens in an instant.

If I had a nickel for every time I heard that, the NFL would fine and suspend me.
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