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A debate challenge

this is a discussion within the Saints Community Forum; I think becaue of the past failures by the Saints that there are a lot of fans that have become closed minded and they're going to expect more of the same no matter what. Hey, that's not a knock on ...

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Old 02-08-2005, 11:34 AM   #1
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A debate challenge

I think becaue of the past failures by the Saints that there are a lot of fans that have become closed minded and they're going to expect more of the same no matter what.

Hey, that's not a knock on anyone. Who can blame you?

But, I want to issue a challenge.

I'm going to make a case FOR the Saints and I want anyone that disgrees to make a good sound arguement about what they disagree with.

But there are 4 rules to this debate:

1. You can't simply say we're going to suck on defense because Venturi is still here.
2. You can't say we're going to suck on offense because Sheppard isn't a proven OC.
3. Leave Brooks completely out of it.
4. You can't use mistakes made in the past by Haslett.


Here's my arguement. Point by point:

1. A healthy Deuce automatically improves our 26th ranked rushing attack.

2. A better rushing attack will make the passing game more effective and defenses won't be able to blitz as much.

3. The defensive scheme changed at the end of the year and we ranked in the top 5 in defense over the past 4-games. I belive Haslett and Pease got involved and I believe that scheme will carry over into next year and I believe Jimmy Robinson was brought in to help make that happen. I believe we'll see a much improved defense next season.





[Edited on 8/2/2005 by GumboBC]

[Edited on 8/2/2005 by GumboBC]
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Old 02-08-2005, 11:46 AM   #2
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A debate challenge

So by taking out the 4 arguments that would invalidate your FOR points, you are hoping to promote a FAIR discussion? Good luck.
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Old 02-08-2005, 11:52 AM   #3
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A debate challenge

So by taking out the 4 arguments that would invalidate your FOR points, you are hoping to promote a FAIR discussion? Good luck.
I want this debate to be as fair as possible. Which is why I made some rules.

You can still talk about Venturi. But go into some detail. Don\'t simply say he sucks and that\'s enough said. Put some thought behind your reasoning.

You can talk about Sheppard. But just don\'t tell us he can\'t get the job done and that\'s enough said. Be specific. The guy has coached the 3rd and 13th ranked offenses in the past. Simply saying it\'s going to be more of the same is closed minded, IMO. Give us some insight. Not more of the same old tired arguements.

You can talk about Haslett. But don\'t just say he\'s made mistakes in the past therefore he\'s doomed to repeat them. How fair is that?

And leave Brooks completely out of it. That goes no where and it NEVER will.

[Edited on 8/2/2005 by GumboBC]
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Old 02-08-2005, 11:55 AM   #4
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A debate challenge

Like I said, good luck.
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Old 02-08-2005, 12:06 PM   #5
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A debate challenge

Leave Brooks out of it -- Why -- one of your points is that an improved running game will help out the passing game. Pretty hard to debate that fairly when the QB is off limits.

So I will say this -- and to debate this fairly we cannot bring up AB, the coaching staff, the last 5 games, the free agency.

As long as we have AB and he continues to without passion and heart we will be an inconsistent mediocre team who only plays well when we get way way down.
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Old 02-08-2005, 12:15 PM   #6
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A debate challenge

Leave Brooks out of it -- Why -- one of your points is that an improved running game will help out the passing game. Pretty hard to debate that fairly when the QB is off limits.
first off-you can\'t talk about the saints problems without bringing up brooks--he is a poster child for most if not all the saints problems.
Same thing I said fellas. Now how much you wanna bet I get blamed for it.
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Old 02-08-2005, 12:17 PM   #7
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A debate challenge

nope- I said it..and will back it up.
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Old 02-08-2005, 12:27 PM   #8
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A debate challenge

I\'d just like to thank the folks who brought Aaron Brooks in this discussion. We really learned something. Thanks guys for you contributions. We\'ve never heard those things said about Aaron Brooks... :casstet:
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Old 02-08-2005, 12:32 PM   #9
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A debate challenge

i don\'t really see how this changes things but:

1. Haslett needs to instill in this team the intensity that he played with and that it had the last four games.
2. the coaches need to hold the players accountable and we need to have enough depth to have players be pushed--too many players are comfortable and have only 1 years worth of experience in the 4 or 5 years they have played-there has been no growth and why should they be-they no they are starting and are considered stars. we need a backup rb adn a backup qb to help make those competitive.
3. we need players healthy and in shape.
4. we need to play as a team-nobody should be above the team--see number 3.
5. we need to gut the linebackers and keep those that produce then add some more for depth. brockwaldt was playing above his head, and I\'m not sure watson shouldn\'t be playing outside...but they both did well..now lets add to that.
6. we need to get younger on the o-line
7. we need to cut down on the penalties.
8. we need a philosophy and to stick to-bring player in to play in that philosophy..not just look for good athletes..but smart ones as well.

do these things and we make the playoffs. these are all things that can be done without much change in personel.

we do, however need to upgrade the personel..get rid of some players and add others to fill spots. but mostly we need to come together as a team--but unfortuanatly, unless certain players are cut, traded or benched that will not happen.

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Old 02-08-2005, 01:06 PM   #10
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A debate challenge

I\'d just like to thank the folks who brought Aaron Brooks in this discussion. We really learned something. Thanks guys for you contributions. We\'ve never heard those things said about Aaron Brooks... :casstet:
Okay -- all of your points are completely valid -- our passing game will be fantastic (cannot argue that point since we cannot discuss the QB). Venturi is a genius because of the last 5 games performance (none of which were against high powered offenses) but we cannot argue that point because we cannot talk about Venturi -- We cannot talk about the Saints being outcoached or ill prepared because we cannot discuss Hasslet -- we cannot talk about our inability to score points early in the game becuase we have a new OC and cannot mention Brooks and his lack of early game passion or intensity

What have we learned -- we learned that in your attempt to bring on a fair debate all you really wanted is for most of us to go against our better judgement and become a hopeless optimist. Its alright to dream about vast improvement and a better year -- heck I think it is mandatory for all Saints fans to think that way -- just don\'t try to put science into those glowing optimistic dreams and call it a fair debate. Call it what it is --- an ostrich with its head in the sand ignoring the problems inherent in the team

\"I have a photographic memory -- I just don\'t have any film.\"
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