saintfan

Well Billy...nobody is trying to sell you a frappin\' thing. Women want the right to choose. It\'s THEIR body. THEIR decision to make. It is ABSOLUTELY NOT about right or wrong. Right and Wrong are relative. You don\'t seem to get that. If you want to be in a place where you get to decide or have control over what a woman does to her body then move east, cause you\'re not going to get that control here. It may frustrate you to no end that women get abortions. So be it. Go lose some sleep over it, but at the end of the day you still don\'t get to make that decision.

Truth be told you don\'t lose any sleep over all these innocent lives do you. You lay down at night and drift away. You wake up the next day rested and ready for another day in the life of Billy. If it botherd you so much you\'d do SOMEthing wouldn\'t you? Or are you just here to argue a point? Have you discussed this issue with women? Have you heard what they have to say, or do you get all your info from the evening News? In other words, are you knee deep in this issue or are you just walkin\' around thinking you\'re right unable to understand why or how someone else might think differently?

The BOTTOM line is this has been thoroughly discussed and a decision has been made. That decision was to allow women the freedom to choose. This decision was made by people a lot smarter than you and I, and they put a lot more time and effort into that decision than this silly little debate, and so that\'s the way it is. You don\'t have to like it...you have the freedom to voice your displeasure. That\'s where it ends tho, because what\'s \"right\" for you -- so plain and simple in your mind -- ain\'t always what\'s right for me. I\'m not sellin you a flippin\' thing, I just don\'t get why you don\'t get it.

Wanna go save some lives? Bourbon Street is waiting.

C'mon Man...

GumboBC

Oh, you\'re doing your level headed best to \"sell\" folks on why killing a child is OK.

I supose I don\'t have the right to tell folks they need to get a job and quit living off welfare too, huh? Who am I to tell folks they need to do the right thing? Who\'s to say what\'s right or wrong? I don\'t know these people. Maybe it\'s their parent\'s fault they don\'t have any \"do right\" in \'em.

No, I can\'t force them to get a job, saintfan. It\'s a free country. But, I do know the difference between right and wrong. I\'m sure you are probably one of those folks who voulenteer to hand out free cheese and milk to those folks?

I suppose I\'m just one of those arrogant people who tries to force my belief on other people. Martin Luther King was one of those folks too. Got him killed, but he stood up for what he believed in. Did it in New Orleans too. Maybe you heard of the guy? Or maybe he put you off with his \"moral\" beliefs? Or do you have any morals? I don\'t know you and I\'m sure you do have morals. But, they are sure not showing through on this issue.

Am I 100% right on this issue. Maybe, maybe not. But, if I\'m going to make a mistake, it\'s going to be on the side of caution. Forcing the mother to take some responsibility isn\'t asking a whole lot. Not when there\'s another human life at stake.

I\'m comfortable with my stand. I do sleep good at night, saintfan. I\'ve not saved any lives. But, I haven\'t been going around trying to covince folks it\'s ok to kill an innocent child either.

Been sleeping well lately?!?! Somewhere out there are folks who are undecided on this issue. Why don\'t you go out on your town square and tell folks that it\'s ok to kill innocent children. Or beter yet, tell \'em it doesn\'t make any difference to you. You\'re ok with it one way or the other.





[Edited on 21/8/2004 by GumboBC]

ScottyRo

What makes it none of my business? The whole pro-abortion argument is based on a world that does not exist. You\'re main argument time and time again is that it is her body. Obviously, here your saying it\'s not my business because it is her body.

The her body argument is so weak it\'s laughable. If you think that you have absolute and total control over your body in this country then, you\'re once again ignoring the truth. \"Freedom\" is a misnomer if you want to apply it to your actions. You are not free to do whatever you want - not even with your own body. I\'ll cite my suicide remarks above. Bottomline, if you threaten it, they\'ll come and take you to a nuthouse to prevent it.

You further said:Again, she\'s not as free in this country as you\'d like to pretend. But looking at it from another angle, what is it that I\'m suggesting is done to her body that she hasn\'t already done herself? I\'m not suggesting we force her to get pregnant...she already is. The truth is that I\'m suggesting hat we prevent her from doing something to herself because that something has a fatal affect on another individual. There are plenty of laws that prevent people from doing things to themselves.

I know you don\'t feel that a mother of a born child should have the right to kill that child under any circumstances. I don\'t doubt that one bit. So in the end, all the ills that may come from having an unwanted child aren\'t sufficient to justify killing the child that has been born. That limits you pretty much to the \"it\'s her body\" argument since that is the only difference.

So, why don\'t you find for me the phrase in the Constitution or the amendments that says a person has an absolute right to do to their bodies whatever they choose. Also, try to find one that states that a person has an absolute right to choose what is right for his or her self.

When you don\'t find those, then you can stop making those remarks such as \"not in this country\" and \"that\'s middle east ways\". Your rights are restricted in many ways. The right to vote is the most freedom you are going to have and even that can be taken away.

It\'s time to stop using these absolutes in your arguments because they are too naive a way of thinking for an intelligent person like yourself.

ScottyRo

This is a pretty lame argument too. Is it the \"you don\'t really feel that way or you\'d be out doing something about it\" argument? Or the \"you don\'t have the right to talk about it since you\'re not out fighting against it everyday\" argument?

So, I\'m going to step out on a limb and guess that you\'re in favor of the war in Iraq. Others are out in the street protesting this - probably right now. But you\'re sitting in front of a computer arguing about abortion instead of heading out to protest the protesters. Or to carry signs in favor of the war. Does that mean you don\'t have the right to support the war?

No.

saintfan

You BET it is. It sure isn\'t your body or your pregnancy. How arragont do you have to be to fail to see that?

You freakin\' lawyers, I swear. Shakespear was on to you guys.

Let me ask you a question counselor, if I may. Why is suicide illegal? If you\'re gonna use that as your \"you don\'t have the right to do any thing you want\" argument -- as if I\'m not very much aware of that -- then you explain it to me. Rather, tell me why you think it\'s not legal, because I already know why it\'s not legal and it has nothing to do with saving lives. Go ahead sir, and explain that one. Then, hush, ok, because it\'s irrelevant and unimportant. Its another tactic used by anit-abortionists that doesn\'t hold water (pardon the expression), but you go ahead Scotty and give it your best shot. Remember the question and try not to drift. Please also take into account that while I never went to law school I grew up around people that did. I have many friends who\'ve been pratcing law since before you were born I\'m sure, so go easy on the whole \"You don\'t really understand freedom\" thing.

Dude, we learned this in the 6th grade if not before. You didn\'t figure this out in law school...at least I hope you didn\'t. All the things you wanna bring up about not having total freedom have not one thing to do with abortion.

OK Mr. Lawyer. At this point you get to define \"individual\", and then you get to convince the world, or at least all the women in america, why it is that your definition is \"right\" and there\'s isn\'t. See, you can\'t do this cause of what comes next Scotty. You\'ll have doctors tellin (not simply advising) women all sorts of things they must do or else. Else what you ask? Else in your perfect world I guess they\'d go to jail? WHAT? You didn\'t eat your Carrots last night? Don\'t you know they\'ll put you in jail for that?

My work here is done. I knew better than to chime in at all. There\'s no dealing with you people. LOL

I\'ll say again Scotty, that I appreciate your point, I really do, but I disagree with you from the bottom of my soul. To change my mind you\'ll have to be able to point definitively to the precise point when life begins. I know when you think it begins, but what you think isn\'t proof. Further, I\'m not so sure I\'d wanna take away a woman\'s right to choose even then. I say that because I really do think she should do what\'s best for her. I don\'t go to church, but I believe. I don\'t go to church for a thousand reasons, and I\'m sure there are a thousand more reasons I just haven\'t bothered to think of. Ultimately, that woman who\'s abortion you\'re trying to prevent may have a couple thousand reasons of her own why she disagrees with you, and you can\'t prove her wrong. You will NEVER be able to prove her wrong, and so, in the end, if there\'s a God, and if abortion is wrong, then that woman will have to deal with that. It\'s not my job you see? Neither is it yours. It\'s not Billy\'s either, even tho he thinks with all his heart that he\'s right.

C'mon Man...

GumboBC

What do you know, no one is able to win this argument. Whoahda thunk it?

saintfan -- You believe a woman has a right to make a decision that affects her and her unborn child. And you believe that decision is hers and hers alone.

Maybe you\'re right. Maybe that\'s the way it should be. It certainly isn\'t affecting my life. And as you\'ve already mentioned, you\'re not losing any sleep over it. You don\'t care one way or the other. Fine if they do, fine if they don\'t.

Maybe I\'m overstepping by boundaries when I say it shouldn\'t be allowed. I don\'t know the womans situation and I don\'t know what\'s best for HER. If SHE is forced to have this baby, HER life could be atltered forever. SHE might lose her boyfriend. SHE might not get to go to college. HER parents might disown HER. SHE might even become depressed.

But you know what? I still can\'t help but feel sorry for that unborn child. That little child who never had any say-so in whether it gets to live or not. Call me HUMAN, but that\'s the way I feel.

And call me a selfish HUMAN, but I just don\'t feel sorry for the woman. And why should I? Seems she\'s the one that\'s being selfish to me. Thinking only of HERself. Maybe she\'s thinking about the child? But that\'s hard for me to believe. I mean, she\'s willing to KILL the unborn child.

I wish folks didn\'t commit crimes so harsh that they had to face the death penalty. But they made the decision to commit the crime. It was their decision and their decision alone. No one held a gun to their head and forced them to commit the crime. You do the crime and you must do the time.

The pregnant woman made the decision to commit the act of sex. It\'s unfortnate for HER that she got pregnant. The punishment should fit the crime. In this case, she should be forced to have the baby and put it up for adoption.

The law says lots of things. Some right. Some wrong. This is one law that needs to be changed. Common sense should prevail.

[Edited on 21/8/2004 by GumboBC]

saintfan

Man I just can\'t help myself. It\'s always about SHE SHE SHE and never the fetus. She\'s alive. When the fetus qualifies is up for debate. SHE SHE SHE might think differently than YOU YOU YOU, and it\'s HER HER HER body not YOURS YOURS YOURS. Get it yet?

Oh yeah? Really? She did did she? Hmmmmm? And what if she didn\'t? Then what? C\'mon Billy and make that decision for her. She\'s waiting.

GumboBC

If she was raped, I\'d be willing to let her have have an abortion. I still wouldn\'t like it. But I could understand. That was out of her control.

I\'d still feel sorry for the child. But that is the way I would handle the situation if the law were left up to me.

On the other hand, saintfan, at what month during the preganancy would you NOT allow the abortion?

Would you allow it in the 9th month?

PLEAE answer that question?

saintfan

Until the fetus can sustain it\'s own life Billy, whenever that may be.

So then is this the battle to save lives or only selected ones? You can get the anti-abortion hoard on that one EVERY time. So, you\'d be willin\' to let her huh? I\'m very sure that all the women in the world are glad to hear YOU say that. Are we saving HUMANS here or aren\'t we. Are we saving only those human lives that are born without defects or are we saving the ones who will be born without kidneys that will certainly die when \"born\"? There are a thousand and more other scenarios Billy, and NONE of \'em concern you, nor should they matter to you, because, as I have been trying to say...IT\'S NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS...and that fact remains even if you think you\'re right.

C'mon Man...

GumboBC

So there would come a point during the pregnancy that you would TELL a woman she couldn\'t have an abortion. Who the HELL are YOU to make that decision, saintfan. Her body, her decison.

No one\'s interested in your personal beliefs saintfan. Just because the baby could sustain life does NOT make it your decison. Get it? Probably not!!