Politics

GumboBC · 08-20-2004, 01:18 PM

A woman\'s right to choose.... Is that what this is about?

Well, the woman made her decision the moment she ... how can I put this. hmm.. spread her womanhood!!

After that, it\'s two people involved in the decision. The mother and the baby. Ask the baby what his/her decision is.

In case of a tie between the mother and the baby....... The baby wins ... hands down.

You know, anything can be justified. I guess it just comes down to what folks morals are??

saintfan · 08-20-2004, 01:21 PM

I shouldn\'t jump in here again, but man this thread just won\'t die.

Yes, they should carry the child to prove the point that life, especially all human life, is precious. You ask about the costs to the parents and family. I have to say it\'s apparent that you don\'t know any families that have children born with these difficulties.

I know families of this type. I know of a newly married couple who recently had to make such a decision, and dude I\'m glad to know that neither you nor I forced them to do something they didn\'t want to do. It was THEIR decision. That you think you have the right to make such a decision for someone else, to me, is insane man. Live like you wanna live...and let other people make the decisions that directly effect THEIR lives for THEMSELVES.

The idea of relating abortion to taking your own life is pointless. The laws against taking your own life (as you know very well) are entirely unrelated. Why bring this up? I\'m guessing because not being able to force what you think on someone else is frustrating. I respect your opinion, but your opinion is just that...yours.

Also, if the child is never adopted and had to live a sad life, not even with foster parents, but always in an orphan center, that is still preferable to death. It cannot be truthfully stated that one would have been better off having never been born.

Yes, ScottyRo, it can be so stated...in as much as it can be stated otherwise since we\'re dealing with OPINIONS and not FACTS. Who\'s to say? You think you are. Where your family is concerned maybe you are, but not necessarilly where someone else\'s family is concerned.

What I am coming to understand about pro-abortionists is that it seems, simply, that your priorites are out of line. I don\'t mean to sound condescending here...

Yes. Admit it man. You DO mean to sound condescending here are you\'re doing a really good job at it. Why else would you refer to an aborted fetus as \"Medical Waste\"? It\'s a common practice of the anti-abortionist. They wanna make it sound as dirty and inhumane and as sickening as possible. Why? Ya\'ll think MOST women have abortions like they\'re ordering a cheesburger?

Perhaps it\'s you with the out of line priorities. Have you ever stepped down off the anit-abortion soap box long enough to think that you might be out of line in thinking that YOU have the right to tell a woman that she must have a baby who\'s kidneys don\'t work and has no chance to survive? Perhaps she\'s been told that her life is at risk? Maybe you\'ve just never been close enough to the situation (the woman in question) to have an accurate understanding. Maybe you\'ve been through this yourself. I don\'t claim to know. But I would LOVE to know why you\'re so convinced that you\'re right and everyone else is wrong. I\'d really like to know why you feel that way. Is it a religion thing? Is it a political thing? Did you find all these truths under that same rock Joseph Smith found his?

I don\'t mean to sound so abrasive I swear, and as I said before I can respect your opinion, but that doesn\'t stop me from wanting to know why you think the way you do. For what it\'s worth I\'m arguing the right or wrong of abortion with you, I\'m arguing with you the fact that you think you should have this power of decision. You can try and hold it next to this or that and compare the legality of some other thing against it, but abortion is unlike other things. It\'s personal, and quite frankly you should stay out of the business of other folks.

As Elvis once sang: \"Clean up your own backyard. You tend to your business...I\'ll tend to mine.\"

Right or wrong it\'s the Creator\'s job to deal with, not yours.

Do you eat steak? Was killin that cow wrong? Why not? Because it doesn\'t have a spirit? Who says? God? Did he say that? According to whom? Prove it.

GumboBC · 08-20-2004, 04:23 PM

So, the question is whether or not anyone has a right to tell a woman what to do?

You\'ve got to be kidding me !!!

Dude, there are so many laws that tell us that to do. You know how those became law? Take a wild guess. It was because enough people thought it was something wrong enough to make it against the law.

You have no more right to say a \"woman has the right to choose\" than me saying they shouldn\'t have the right to choose.

Forcing something on someone has NOTHING to do with it. We get sh!t forced on us ALL the time. I\'d like to have 3 wives. But, I can\'t do it. Well, I could, but I\'d go to jail.

I\'d like to not pay taxes. But you would have to visit me in the jail house!!

And it doesn\'t have anything to do with \"when life begins\" either. Because we don\'t know that do we. For all you or ANYONE else knows, it could start at conception. I\'ve always thought it\'s better to err on the side of caution. But let\'s play Russiam Roulette. Let\'s say: \"well, we don\'t know when life begins, so let\'s take a chance.

But the woman had her chance NOT to get pregnant. But she chose to \"take a chance.\" She lost !!! Plain and simple.

People need to take some responsibility for their mistakes and quit taking the EASY way out.

That\'s what\'s wrong with this country today.

saintfan · 08-20-2004, 05:30 PM

So, in other words, it doesn\'t matter why. There should be no abortion because there are already laws in place that restrict what people do. ahhhh, ok.

And it doesn\'t have anything to do with \"when life begins\" either. Because we don\'t know that do we. For all you or ANYONE else knows, it could start at conception.

Then what, exactly does it have to do with? Your opinion? The laws we have in place that restrict our activity are there generally to keep us from affecting other people with our actions. You\'re not required to wear a seat belt in Texas because the state of Texas gives a damn about whether you live or die. You have to wear a seat belt here (or anywhere else now) because insurance companies are that powerful. Beleive it baby.

It has everything in the world to do with the debate over when life begins as well as how much power YOU have over SOMEONE ELSE\'S body. Beleive that too, and note what the law says too.

What about the death penalty?
What about War?
What that poor cow in my previous post?

Don\'t get me wrong Billy. I\'m all about takin responsibility too. I\'m not arguing whether abortion is right or wrong. I\'m arguing a womans right to choose, or more specifically your lack of a right to tell a complete stranger whos circumstances you are totally unfamiliar with what she should do.

It\'s just not as simple as saying, \"well, it\'s wrong, obviously, so it shouldn\'t be allowed\". It\'s nowhere NEAR that simple, and if you or anyone else can\'t see past that then I have to think you\'re not trying very hard.

ScottyRo · 08-20-2004, 05:31 PM

Yes. Admit it man. You DO mean to sound condescending here are you\'re doing a really good job at it. Why else would you refer to an aborted fetus as \"Medical Waste\"? It\'s a common practice of the anti-abortionist. They wanna make it sound as dirty and inhumane and as sickening as possible. Why? Ya\'ll think MOST women have abortions like they\'re ordering a cheesburger?

What is an aborted fetus then? Are we gonna call it a \"dead baby that didn\'t deserve to live\"? That sounds more enciting than medical waste. I actually thought medical waste was going to be a pretty neutral term. You tell me what to call it and I\'ll use that term, but it must be a truthful term that doesn\'t simply brush the truth of what it is under the rug so you don\'t have to hear yourself say \"dead baby\".

The idea of relating abortion to taking your own life is pointless. The laws against taking your own life (as you know very well) are entirely unrelated. Why bring this up? I\'m guessing because not being able to force what you think on someone else is frustrating. I respect your opinion, but your opinion is just that...yours.

They are vastly different but I used it for a vastly different purpose than you suggest. I was not comparing the two. I was showing how individual liberties are not absolute by pointing out what would happen if you threatened to kill yourself. That\'s all. Grrlscout kept analogizing the two.

Yes, ScottyRo, it can be so stated...in as much as it can be stated otherwise since we\'re dealing with OPINIONS and not FACTS. Who\'s to say? You think you are. Where your family is concerned maybe you are, but not necessarilly where someone else\'s family is concerned.

Well, yeah, I probably did overstate my opinion as fact. I\'ll admit that although the law in certain personal injury cases on the subject agrees with my view. However, I\'d bet dollars to donuts that psychiatric professionals would label a person with some sort of \"insane\" moniker if that person were to state that he would have been better off having never been born, truly meaning it.

Have you ever stepped down off the anit-abortion soap box long enough to think that you might be out of line in thinking that YOU have the right to tell a woman that she must have a baby who\'s kidneys don\'t work and has no chance to survive?

The ropes must be nawing into your back pretty badly, if you\'re really gonna use a worst case scenario argument on me. I\'ve stated many times that there are more difficult questions buried in this debate that we should not really go into because the length of the simple debate is so long.

As Elvis once sang: \"Clean up your own backyard. You tend to your business...I\'ll tend to mine.\"

Another cop-out argument made as if we have absolute freedoms and nobody ever looks over anybody else\'s shoulder. Take the blindres off, man, and get into the REAL U.S.

Do you eat steak? Was killin that cow wrong? Why not? Because it doesn\'t have a spirit? Who says? God? Did he say that? According to whom? Prove it.

Can you really be this contradictory? You tell me that we shouldn\'t even compare suicide and abortion and you want to bring in the cow versus baby argument? If I don\'t see another thing posted on this board til the start of the season, I want to see you admit that you\'re wrong here.

saintfan · 08-20-2004, 05:52 PM

What I\'m trying to do ScottyRo is figure out how it is that people think they have the right to make this sort of decision on behalf of someone else. Someone they don\'t know. Someone who\'s circumstances they are totally unaware of, simply because they think they\'re right. The law doesn\'t give you that right. Society has told you that you don\'t have that right, and yet you\'re still at it, and I wonder why?

You responded to Elvis and made fun of the cow, but you didn\'t answer the question I most wanted you to answer. WHY do you feel this way? Why is killing the cow for veal so much different than killing the baby to save the mothers life or because SHE made the personal decision to abort it? YOU tell ME where\'s the difference, and tell me WHY you feel that way, and then explain to me how come you\'re right and I\'m wrong.

Dude, it\'s not about a worst case scenario. You don\'t care about the scenario. That\'s my whole point. You just think you\'re right...period. You can\'t see past it.

The ropes must be nawing into your back pretty badly, if you\'re really gonna use a worst case scenario argument on me. I\'ve stated many times that there are more difficult questions buried in this debate that we should not really go into because the length of the simple debate is so long.

You\'re right there man. This gets REALLY deep. It\'s your opinion versus someone elses versus someone elses. Now, if you\'re not propping yourself up with religion and the \"Good book\" then what is it? It is my opinion that when you recognize that everyone doesn\'t think the way you think or think way you think they should think then you\'ll understand. But not until then. You\'ll still think abortion is wrong, but you\'ll have faith in the fact that you\'re not in control (nor should you be) of what a woman does in that situation.

Do you show up at abortion clinics and councel women about to have the procedure?

Do you show up at prisons prior to an execution and councel the executioner?

Do you protest War?

Do you go to inner city neighborhoods and council folks there in crack houses before they go bust a cap in somebody for their next blow?

No? Why not? Because the fetus doesn\'t have a voice? Please! Why have you chosen the abortion issue when I\'d bet good money you don\'t do any of these other things. What gives man? Whether or not that baby (or whatever it is) is alive at point \"a\" or \"b\", why not spend all that energy on people that are living minus the debate about whether or not they are? I wonder.

ScottyRo · 08-20-2004, 06:22 PM

Ok Saintfan, you asked and I don\'t mind telling. This is where I come from on this debate.

When I was 17, I became sexually active. This is when I began to form my thoughts on abortion. The reality of my opinion about it around that time was that I wasn\'t really in favor of it, but I wanted it to be legal in case I needed it. As I have gotten older and more mature, I have realized that if I were to get a woman pregnant unexpectantly, I should accept that responsibility rather than have the child pay with its life for my mistake.

I was raised in church, but didn\'t attend from the time I was 16 until about 31. I can\'t really say that religion affected my decision. There was a time when I might have called myself an atheist. Certainly, it wasn\'t the church since I wasn\'t going at that time. I think of myself as a fairly philosophical sort of person in that even in things I am told about at church I search out for myself the answer I believe to be correct.

You put the woman\'s right to choose first and I can understand that. All I can tell you is that I see that right to choose as an UNFORTUNATE victim in that situation because the life of the child comes first to me. It seems like you think I set out to take away that right when that is not the case. It is collateral damage so to speak because it is subsequent to a greater good.

You say things that make it seem like you are getting angry at me when you read my opinions and I think it is because you misinterpret the reasonings for my opinions. I\'m trying to elaborate as much as possible so you can see that my intent here is to be as honest as possible with you.

The summary here if I haven\'t gotten it across is that my view on this has changed, but it wasn\'t affected by my religious views as you want to suggest. Whether I was truly an atheist or just a person that wanted to say he believed more in science is irrelevant, because during that time I did not believe abortion was the right thing to do. I decided to start attending church again for many reasons, but I had long before had my mind set on which was the more important issue.

Go ahead. Call me a liar. Suggest that I\'ve conjured up this post only to further my views. There\'s nothing I can do to prove to you otherwise that I am telling you the truth except post this. If you wont believe this, then there\'s nothing I can tell you that you\'ll believe or honestly consider.

Note that I hadn\'t read your last post when I wrote this. I just want that clear.

[Edited on 20/8/2004 by ScottyRo]

ScottyRo · 08-20-2004, 07:09 PM

What I\'m trying to do ScottyRo is figure out how it is that people think they have the right to make this sort of decision on behalf of someone else. Someone they don\'t know. Someone who\'s circumstances they are totally unaware of, simply because they think they\'re right. The law doesn\'t give you that right. Society has told you that you don\'t have that right, and yet you\'re still at it, and I wonder why?

Maybe because I think that saving children is important enough that I\'d risk ruffling your feathers over it to discuss the topic and say that I don\'t think it\'s right. How is that wrong? Don\'t I have 1st Amendment right to say that?

Dude, it\'s not about a worst case scenario. You don\'t care about the scenario. That\'s my whole point. You just think you\'re right...period. You can\'t see past it.

Man, you don\'t know how I feel on the subject entirely. The problem is that it\'s just too hard to discuss every single scenario possible. This medium is too limiting. I prefer to talk about the less difficult questions here because it\'s easier to do so.

Further, you accuse me of not seeing past something. This seems awfully contradictory when you\'re holding onto your views just as adamantly as I. Aren\'t you also one that can\'t see past it. Whatever IT is.

Now, if you\'re not propping yourself up with religion and the \"Good book\" then what is it?

I will say again that I\'ve done what I can to avoid religios and biblical foundations in my arguments. I have tried to state my opinions in legal and philosophical terms only unless asked otherwise. Those who have been debating me on this and who agree with you will at least agree with me on that.

It is my opinion that when you recognize that everyone doesn\'t think the way you think or think way you think they should think then you\'ll understand. But not until then.

C\'mon! It is abundantly clear that people disagree with me. This debate has raged (and ebbed) on here for weeks and only recently has anyone that comes to this site said anything on my side about it. But you say things like the above in a way that tells me you don\'t think I have a right to disagree. In what way are you not trying to get me to think like you think? I guess it\'s ok for you to do it but not me since I might have been tainted by some religion.

You\'ll still think abortion is wrong, but you\'ll have faith in the fact that you\'re not in control (nor should you be) of what a woman does in that situation.

Again, you harp so hard on the \"control\" issue it\'s obvious you\'re not reading a thing I have to say about it. Control is not the issue for me. Saving lives is. You keep asking me about the \"why\'s\" of this debate so I have one for you.

Why is the woman\'s right to choose greater and more important than the child\'s right to life, if any?

Go ahead. Dazzle me. Show me that you\'ve actually thought this through and you\'re not just spouting \"women\'s choice\" arguments you\'ve been hearing elsewhere.

Do you show up at abortion clinics and councel women about to have the procedure?

Do you show up at prisons prior to an execution and councel the executioner?

Do you protest War?

No to all three. Does that mean I can\'t have an opinion? Let me say again you\'ve either forgotten or you haven\'t READ the previous posts on this thread. So, before you ask me about justifications for killing go look up my opinion for yourself.

Do you go to inner city neighborhoods and council folks there in crack houses before they go bust a cap in somebody for their next blow?

In what way could this possibly be relevant to a discussion about abortion? You\'re all over the place, man.

Why have you chosen the abortion issue when I\'d bet good money you don\'t do any of these other things. What gives man?

So now I have to be out counseling people in order to hold an opinion on an issue. You know what? We\'re here discussing things. If you want to discuss those, start a thread on them. I guess if you have to be involved to have an opinion, then you\'re the guy getting all these girls pregnant and taking them to get abortions or counseling them to have them. I know you\'re an intelligent guy. Slow down before you write and you\'ll stop making these rediculous errors in logic.

saintfan · 08-20-2004, 07:20 PM

Why is the woman\'s right to choose greater and more important than the child\'s right to life, if any?

I\'m not saying her right to choose is greater than the childs right to life. I\'m saying I don\'t have the right to make that decision for her. Neither do you man. You don\'t have that right because people WAY smarter than either of us have thought and thought about it and they figured the woman should have the right to figure out what\'s best for her.

Scotty -- Man I\'m not callin\' you a liar. I\'ve said before I respect your opinion. I\'ve even indicated that I, too, think that abortion is wrong...that\'s what my gut tells me. Somewhere deep down I think it\'s not the right thing to do in \"most\" cases; however, I just can\'t imagine myself ever using what \"I\" think is right or wrong as justification to force my opinion on someone else. I especially don\'t think I should be given that power over someone I don\'t know...someone who\'s circumstances are beyond my knowledge.

I type angry sometimes. Don\'t take me personally...ever. I just come across that way. The fact is that abortion is legal. That\'s the only fact we\'ll come up with here. I get miffed when I hear the anti-abortion activitists hollerin\' on the radio about how all these women are going to hell, or using the most disgusting language possible to describe the procedure. I detest their \"in your face\" tactics. I have no doubt an abortion isn\'t a fun time. These people, to me, are WAY over the top and likely in need of attention. They should go and live their own lives ya know? Now I\'m not speaking of you. You seem to have the ability to debate the issue intelligently...more so than me even...but then again that\'s not very difficult. :P

The issue of right or wrong goes deep man. You said so yourself. If you acknowledge that then you must also acknowledge that it\'s just not as simple as pro-choice people being misguided. You may think they\'re misguided, but everything is with respect to where you\'re viewing it from. You may not be able to comprehend someone else\'s reasoning behind a particular decision they make about a particular thing because you\'re not living their reality. I shake my head at the ignorance I see daily, but I also remind myself that other people view me through their reality too. At least that\'s my opinion. Because I feel that way I believe a woman should be allowed to make her own decision. That\'s her baby and none of my business. If it\'s wrong then she\'ll pay for that decision. It\'s not up to me. I might suggest to her that there are options, but that\'s as far as I\'ll go. That\'s as far as I have to go morally since I do beleive what I beleive.

Anyway, we can agree to disagree. I don\'t sweat that, and I hope you don\'t. In my heart I think the right to choose is the right thing even tho I think abortion isn\'t morally sound. I\'m all for the death penalty. I think war is sometimes necessary and I\'d like to see Iraq made into the worlds biggest parking lot mostly because I don\'t think those folks in the middle east really want peace. They like to fight. They are a plague spreading across the planet and they should be eliminated. Saddam was brutal because he HAD to be. There is no peace with those animals. How\'s that for over the top! LOL I think the abuse of animals is wrong, but cook me a steak any day. LOL

[Edited on 20/8/2004 by saintfan]

GumboBC · 08-20-2004, 07:44 PM

I\'m not saying her right to choose is greater than the childs right to life. I\'m saying I don\'t have the right to make that decision for her. Neither do you man.

Me, myself alone doesn\'t have the right to choose for her. No sir!! But, WE the MAJORITY of the people of the United States does !!

saintfan --

If a woman is raped, or the child is going to be born with some kind of birth defect, then abortion should be an option.

If a woman goes out and gets pregnent because SHE chose to be careless, then that\'s WRONG !! Spin it however you want, but a human life is THE BIGGEST price to pay that you could possibly think of.

Believe it or not, saintfan, the woman had all kind of options before she got pregnent. She could have not had sex. She could have used protection. She could have done all kinds of things. You know who had no choice in this matter? The baby !!

So who deserves to pay the price? The mother or the baby?

Get back to me on that and NO SPIN!!

08-20-2004, 01:18 PM	#81
GumboBC Banned Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 2,616	Politics A woman\'s right to choose.... Is that what this is about? Well, the woman made her decision the moment she ... how can I put this. hmm.. spread her womanhood!! After that, it\'s two people involved in the decision. The mother and the baby. Ask the baby what his/her decision is. In case of a tie between the mother and the baby....... The baby wins ... hands down. You know, anything can be justified. I guess it just comes down to what folks morals are??
GumboBC Banned Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 2,616

08-20-2004, 01:21 PM	#82
saintfan Donated Plasma Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: San Francisco, CA Posts: 18,556 Blog Entries: 5	Politics I shouldn\'t jump in here again, but man this thread just won\'t die. Yes, they should carry the child to prove the point that life, especially all human life, is precious. You ask about the costs to the parents and family. I have to say it\'s apparent that you don\'t know any families that have children born with these difficulties. I know families of this type. I know of a newly married couple who recently had to make such a decision, and dude I\'m glad to know that neither you nor I forced them to do something they didn\'t want to do. It was THEIR decision. That you think you have the right to make such a decision for someone else, to me, is insane man. Live like you wanna live...and let other people make the decisions that directly effect THEIR lives for THEMSELVES. The idea of relating abortion to taking your own life is pointless. The laws against taking your own life (as you know very well) are entirely unrelated. Why bring this up? I\'m guessing because not being able to force what you think on someone else is frustrating. I respect your opinion, but your opinion is just that...yours. Also, if the child is never adopted and had to live a sad life, not even with foster parents, but always in an orphan center, that is still preferable to death. It cannot be truthfully stated that one would have been better off having never been born. Yes, ScottyRo, it can be so stated...in as much as it can be stated otherwise since we\'re dealing with OPINIONS and not FACTS. Who\'s to say? You think you are. Where your family is concerned maybe you are, but not necessarilly where someone else\'s family is concerned. What I am coming to understand about pro-abortionists is that it seems, simply, that your priorites are out of line. I don\'t mean to sound condescending here... Yes. Admit it man. You DO mean to sound condescending here are you\'re doing a really good job at it. Why else would you refer to an aborted fetus as \"Medical Waste\"? It\'s a common practice of the anti-abortionist. They wanna make it sound as dirty and inhumane and as sickening as possible. Why? Ya\'ll think MOST women have abortions like they\'re ordering a cheesburger? Perhaps it\'s you with the out of line priorities. Have you ever stepped down off the anit-abortion soap box long enough to think that you might be out of line in thinking that YOU have the right to tell a woman that she must have a baby who\'s kidneys don\'t work and has no chance to survive? Perhaps she\'s been told that her life is at risk? Maybe you\'ve just never been close enough to the situation (the woman in question) to have an accurate understanding. Maybe you\'ve been through this yourself. I don\'t claim to know. But I would LOVE to know why you\'re so convinced that you\'re right and everyone else is wrong. I\'d really like to know why you feel that way. Is it a religion thing? Is it a political thing? Did you find all these truths under that same rock Joseph Smith found his? I don\'t mean to sound so abrasive I swear, and as I said before I can respect your opinion, but that doesn\'t stop me from wanting to know why you think the way you do. For what it\'s worth I\'m arguing the right or wrong of abortion with you, I\'m arguing with you the fact that you think you should have this power of decision. You can try and hold it next to this or that and compare the legality of some other thing against it, but abortion is unlike other things. It\'s personal, and quite frankly you should stay out of the business of other folks. As Elvis once sang: \"Clean up your own backyard. You tend to your business...I\'ll tend to mine.\" Right or wrong it\'s the Creator\'s job to deal with, not yours. Do you eat steak? Was killin that cow wrong? Why not? Because it doesn\'t have a spirit? Who says? God? Did he say that? According to whom? Prove it.
	C'mon Man...

08-20-2004, 04:23 PM	#83
GumboBC Banned Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 2,616	Politics So, the question is whether or not anyone has a right to tell a woman what to do? You\'ve got to be kidding me !!! Dude, there are so many laws that tell us that to do. You know how those became law? Take a wild guess. It was because enough people thought it was something wrong enough to make it against the law. You have no more right to say a \"woman has the right to choose\" than me saying they shouldn\'t have the right to choose. Forcing something on someone has NOTHING to do with it. We get sh!t forced on us ALL the time. I\'d like to have 3 wives. But, I can\'t do it. Well, I could, but I\'d go to jail. I\'d like to not pay taxes. But you would have to visit me in the jail house!! And it doesn\'t have anything to do with \"when life begins\" either. Because we don\'t know that do we. For all you or ANYONE else knows, it could start at conception. I\'ve always thought it\'s better to err on the side of caution. But let\'s play Russiam Roulette. Let\'s say: \"well, we don\'t know when life begins, so let\'s take a chance. But the woman had her chance NOT to get pregnant. But she chose to \"take a chance.\" She lost !!! Plain and simple. People need to take some responsibility for their mistakes and quit taking the EASY way out. That\'s what\'s wrong with this country today.
GumboBC Banned Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 2,616

08-20-2004, 05:30 PM	#84
saintfan Donated Plasma Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: San Francisco, CA Posts: 18,556 Blog Entries: 5	Politics So, in other words, it doesn\'t matter why. There should be no abortion because there are already laws in place that restrict what people do. ahhhh, ok. And it doesn\'t have anything to do with \"when life begins\" either. Because we don\'t know that do we. For all you or ANYONE else knows, it could start at conception. Then what, exactly does it have to do with? Your opinion? The laws we have in place that restrict our activity are there generally to keep us from affecting other people with our actions. You\'re not required to wear a seat belt in Texas because the state of Texas gives a damn about whether you live or die. You have to wear a seat belt here (or anywhere else now) because insurance companies are that powerful. Beleive it baby. It has everything in the world to do with the debate over when life begins as well as how much power YOU have over SOMEONE ELSE\'S body. Beleive that too, and note what the law says too. What about the death penalty? What about War? What that poor cow in my previous post? Don\'t get me wrong Billy. I\'m all about takin responsibility too. I\'m not arguing whether abortion is right or wrong. I\'m arguing a womans right to choose, or more specifically your lack of a right to tell a complete stranger whos circumstances you are totally unfamiliar with what she should do. It\'s just not as simple as saying, \"well, it\'s wrong, obviously, so it shouldn\'t be allowed\". It\'s nowhere NEAR that simple, and if you or anyone else can\'t see past that then I have to think you\'re not trying very hard.
	C'mon Man...

08-20-2004, 05:31 PM	#85
ScottyRo 1000 Posts + Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Williamsburg, VA (ugh, the food here) Posts: 1,704	Politics Yes. Admit it man. You DO mean to sound condescending here are you\'re doing a really good job at it. Why else would you refer to an aborted fetus as \"Medical Waste\"? It\'s a common practice of the anti-abortionist. They wanna make it sound as dirty and inhumane and as sickening as possible. Why? Ya\'ll think MOST women have abortions like they\'re ordering a cheesburger? What is an aborted fetus then? Are we gonna call it a \"dead baby that didn\'t deserve to live\"? That sounds more enciting than medical waste. I actually thought medical waste was going to be a pretty neutral term. You tell me what to call it and I\'ll use that term, but it must be a truthful term that doesn\'t simply brush the truth of what it is under the rug so you don\'t have to hear yourself say \"dead baby\". The idea of relating abortion to taking your own life is pointless. The laws against taking your own life (as you know very well) are entirely unrelated. Why bring this up? I\'m guessing because not being able to force what you think on someone else is frustrating. I respect your opinion, but your opinion is just that...yours. They are vastly different but I used it for a vastly different purpose than you suggest. I was not comparing the two. I was showing how individual liberties are not absolute by pointing out what would happen if you threatened to kill yourself. That\'s all. Grrlscout kept analogizing the two. Yes, ScottyRo, it can be so stated...in as much as it can be stated otherwise since we\'re dealing with OPINIONS and not FACTS. Who\'s to say? You think you are. Where your family is concerned maybe you are, but not necessarilly where someone else\'s family is concerned. Well, yeah, I probably did overstate my opinion as fact. I\'ll admit that although the law in certain personal injury cases on the subject agrees with my view. However, I\'d bet dollars to donuts that psychiatric professionals would label a person with some sort of \"insane\" moniker if that person were to state that he would have been better off having never been born, truly meaning it. Have you ever stepped down off the anit-abortion soap box long enough to think that you might be out of line in thinking that YOU have the right to tell a woman that she must have a baby who\'s kidneys don\'t work and has no chance to survive? The ropes must be nawing into your back pretty badly, if you\'re really gonna use a worst case scenario argument on me. I\'ve stated many times that there are more difficult questions buried in this debate that we should not really go into because the length of the simple debate is so long. As Elvis once sang: \"Clean up your own backyard. You tend to your business...I\'ll tend to mine.\" Another cop-out argument made as if we have absolute freedoms and nobody ever looks over anybody else\'s shoulder. Take the blindres off, man, and get into the REAL U.S. Do you eat steak? Was killin that cow wrong? Why not? Because it doesn\'t have a spirit? Who says? God? Did he say that? According to whom? Prove it. Can you really be this contradictory? You tell me that we shouldn\'t even compare suicide and abortion and you want to bring in the cow versus baby argument? If I don\'t see another thing posted on this board til the start of the season, I want to see you admit that you\'re wrong here.

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08-20-2004, 05:52 PM	#86
saintfan Donated Plasma Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: San Francisco, CA Posts: 18,556 Blog Entries: 5	Politics What I\'m trying to do ScottyRo is figure out how it is that people think they have the right to make this sort of decision on behalf of someone else. Someone they don\'t know. Someone who\'s circumstances they are totally unaware of, simply because they think they\'re right. The law doesn\'t give you that right. Society has told you that you don\'t have that right, and yet you\'re still at it, and I wonder why? You responded to Elvis and made fun of the cow, but you didn\'t answer the question I most wanted you to answer. WHY do you feel this way? Why is killing the cow for veal so much different than killing the baby to save the mothers life or because SHE made the personal decision to abort it? YOU tell ME where\'s the difference, and tell me WHY you feel that way, and then explain to me how come you\'re right and I\'m wrong. Dude, it\'s not about a worst case scenario. You don\'t care about the scenario. That\'s my whole point. You just think you\'re right...period. You can\'t see past it. The ropes must be nawing into your back pretty badly, if you\'re really gonna use a worst case scenario argument on me. I\'ve stated many times that there are more difficult questions buried in this debate that we should not really go into because the length of the simple debate is so long. You\'re right there man. This gets REALLY deep. It\'s your opinion versus someone elses versus someone elses. Now, if you\'re not propping yourself up with religion and the \"Good book\" then what is it? It is my opinion that when you recognize that everyone doesn\'t think the way you think or think way you think they should think then you\'ll understand. But not until then. You\'ll still think abortion is wrong, but you\'ll have faith in the fact that you\'re not in control (nor should you be) of what a woman does in that situation. Do you show up at abortion clinics and councel women about to have the procedure? Do you show up at prisons prior to an execution and councel the executioner? Do you protest War? Do you go to inner city neighborhoods and council folks there in crack houses before they go bust a cap in somebody for their next blow? No? Why not? Because the fetus doesn\'t have a voice? Please! Why have you chosen the abortion issue when I\'d bet good money you don\'t do any of these other things. What gives man? Whether or not that baby (or whatever it is) is alive at point \"a\" or \"b\", why not spend all that energy on people that are living minus the debate about whether or not they are? I wonder.
	C'mon Man...

08-20-2004, 06:22 PM	#87
ScottyRo 1000 Posts + Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Williamsburg, VA (ugh, the food here) Posts: 1,704	Politics Ok Saintfan, you asked and I don\'t mind telling. This is where I come from on this debate. When I was 17, I became sexually active. This is when I began to form my thoughts on abortion. The reality of my opinion about it around that time was that I wasn\'t really in favor of it, but I wanted it to be legal in case I needed it. As I have gotten older and more mature, I have realized that if I were to get a woman pregnant unexpectantly, I should accept that responsibility rather than have the child pay with its life for my mistake. I was raised in church, but didn\'t attend from the time I was 16 until about 31. I can\'t really say that religion affected my decision. There was a time when I might have called myself an atheist. Certainly, it wasn\'t the church since I wasn\'t going at that time. I think of myself as a fairly philosophical sort of person in that even in things I am told about at church I search out for myself the answer I believe to be correct. You put the woman\'s right to choose first and I can understand that. All I can tell you is that I see that right to choose as an UNFORTUNATE victim in that situation because the life of the child comes first to me. It seems like you think I set out to take away that right when that is not the case. It is collateral damage so to speak because it is subsequent to a greater good. You say things that make it seem like you are getting angry at me when you read my opinions and I think it is because you misinterpret the reasonings for my opinions. I\'m trying to elaborate as much as possible so you can see that my intent here is to be as honest as possible with you. The summary here if I haven\'t gotten it across is that my view on this has changed, but it wasn\'t affected by my religious views as you want to suggest. Whether I was truly an atheist or just a person that wanted to say he believed more in science is irrelevant, because during that time I did not believe abortion was the right thing to do. I decided to start attending church again for many reasons, but I had long before had my mind set on which was the more important issue. Go ahead. Call me a liar. Suggest that I\'ve conjured up this post only to further my views. There\'s nothing I can do to prove to you otherwise that I am telling you the truth except post this. If you wont believe this, then there\'s nothing I can tell you that you\'ll believe or honestly consider. Note that I hadn\'t read your last post when I wrote this. I just want that clear. [Edited on 20/8/2004 by ScottyRo]

08-20-2004, 07:09 PM	#88
ScottyRo 1000 Posts + Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Williamsburg, VA (ugh, the food here) Posts: 1,704	Politics What I\'m trying to do ScottyRo is figure out how it is that people think they have the right to make this sort of decision on behalf of someone else. Someone they don\'t know. Someone who\'s circumstances they are totally unaware of, simply because they think they\'re right. The law doesn\'t give you that right. Society has told you that you don\'t have that right, and yet you\'re still at it, and I wonder why? Maybe because I think that saving children is important enough that I\'d risk ruffling your feathers over it to discuss the topic and say that I don\'t think it\'s right. How is that wrong? Don\'t I have 1st Amendment right to say that? Dude, it\'s not about a worst case scenario. You don\'t care about the scenario. That\'s my whole point. You just think you\'re right...period. You can\'t see past it. Man, you don\'t know how I feel on the subject entirely. The problem is that it\'s just too hard to discuss every single scenario possible. This medium is too limiting. I prefer to talk about the less difficult questions here because it\'s easier to do so. Further, you accuse me of not seeing past something. This seems awfully contradictory when you\'re holding onto your views just as adamantly as I. Aren\'t you also one that can\'t see past it. Whatever IT is. Now, if you\'re not propping yourself up with religion and the \"Good book\" then what is it? I will say again that I\'ve done what I can to avoid religios and biblical foundations in my arguments. I have tried to state my opinions in legal and philosophical terms only unless asked otherwise. Those who have been debating me on this and who agree with you will at least agree with me on that. It is my opinion that when you recognize that everyone doesn\'t think the way you think or think way you think they should think then you\'ll understand. But not until then. C\'mon! It is abundantly clear that people disagree with me. This debate has raged (and ebbed) on here for weeks and only recently has anyone that comes to this site said anything on my side about it. But you say things like the above in a way that tells me you don\'t think I have a right to disagree. In what way are you not trying to get me to think like you think? I guess it\'s ok for you to do it but not me since I might have been tainted by some religion. You\'ll still think abortion is wrong, but you\'ll have faith in the fact that you\'re not in control (nor should you be) of what a woman does in that situation. Again, you harp so hard on the \"control\" issue it\'s obvious you\'re not reading a thing I have to say about it. Control is not the issue for me. Saving lives is. You keep asking me about the \"why\'s\" of this debate so I have one for you. Why is the woman\'s right to choose greater and more important than the child\'s right to life, if any? Go ahead. Dazzle me. Show me that you\'ve actually thought this through and you\'re not just spouting \"women\'s choice\" arguments you\'ve been hearing elsewhere. Do you show up at abortion clinics and councel women about to have the procedure? Do you show up at prisons prior to an execution and councel the executioner? Do you protest War? No to all three. Does that mean I can\'t have an opinion? Let me say again you\'ve either forgotten or you haven\'t READ the previous posts on this thread. So, before you ask me about justifications for killing go look up my opinion for yourself. Do you go to inner city neighborhoods and council folks there in crack houses before they go bust a cap in somebody for their next blow? In what way could this possibly be relevant to a discussion about abortion? You\'re all over the place, man. Why have you chosen the abortion issue when I\'d bet good money you don\'t do any of these other things. What gives man? So now I have to be out counseling people in order to hold an opinion on an issue. You know what? We\'re here discussing things. If you want to discuss those, start a thread on them. I guess if you have to be involved to have an opinion, then you\'re the guy getting all these girls pregnant and taking them to get abortions or counseling them to have them. I know you\'re an intelligent guy. Slow down before you write and you\'ll stop making these rediculous errors in logic.

08-20-2004, 07:20 PM	#89
saintfan Donated Plasma Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: San Francisco, CA Posts: 18,556 Blog Entries: 5	Politics Why is the woman\'s right to choose greater and more important than the child\'s right to life, if any? I\'m not saying her right to choose is greater than the childs right to life. I\'m saying I don\'t have the right to make that decision for her. Neither do you man. You don\'t have that right because people WAY smarter than either of us have thought and thought about it and they figured the woman should have the right to figure out what\'s best for her. Scotty -- Man I\'m not callin\' you a liar. I\'ve said before I respect your opinion. I\'ve even indicated that I, too, think that abortion is wrong...that\'s what my gut tells me. Somewhere deep down I think it\'s not the right thing to do in \"most\" cases; however, I just can\'t imagine myself ever using what \"I\" think is right or wrong as justification to force my opinion on someone else. I especially don\'t think I should be given that power over someone I don\'t know...someone who\'s circumstances are beyond my knowledge. I type angry sometimes. Don\'t take me personally...ever. I just come across that way. The fact is that abortion is legal. That\'s the only fact we\'ll come up with here. I get miffed when I hear the anti-abortion activitists hollerin\' on the radio about how all these women are going to hell, or using the most disgusting language possible to describe the procedure. I detest their \"in your face\" tactics. I have no doubt an abortion isn\'t a fun time. These people, to me, are WAY over the top and likely in need of attention. They should go and live their own lives ya know? Now I\'m not speaking of you. You seem to have the ability to debate the issue intelligently...more so than me even...but then again that\'s not very difficult. :P The issue of right or wrong goes deep man. You said so yourself. If you acknowledge that then you must also acknowledge that it\'s just not as simple as pro-choice people being misguided. You may think they\'re misguided, but everything is with respect to where you\'re viewing it from. You may not be able to comprehend someone else\'s reasoning behind a particular decision they make about a particular thing because you\'re not living their reality. I shake my head at the ignorance I see daily, but I also remind myself that other people view me through their reality too. At least that\'s my opinion. Because I feel that way I believe a woman should be allowed to make her own decision. That\'s her baby and none of my business. If it\'s wrong then she\'ll pay for that decision. It\'s not up to me. I might suggest to her that there are options, but that\'s as far as I\'ll go. That\'s as far as I have to go morally since I do beleive what I beleive. Anyway, we can agree to disagree. I don\'t sweat that, and I hope you don\'t. In my heart I think the right to choose is the right thing even tho I think abortion isn\'t morally sound. I\'m all for the death penalty. I think war is sometimes necessary and I\'d like to see Iraq made into the worlds biggest parking lot mostly because I don\'t think those folks in the middle east really want peace. They like to fight. They are a plague spreading across the planet and they should be eliminated. Saddam was brutal because he HAD to be. There is no peace with those animals. How\'s that for over the top! LOL I think the abuse of animals is wrong, but cook me a steak any day. LOL [Edited on 20/8/2004 by saintfan]
	C'mon Man...

08-20-2004, 07:44 PM	#90
GumboBC Banned Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 2,616	Politics I\'m not saying her right to choose is greater than the childs right to life. I\'m saying I don\'t have the right to make that decision for her. Neither do you man. Me, myself alone doesn\'t have the right to choose for her. No sir!! But, WE the MAJORITY of the people of the United States does !! saintfan -- If a woman is raped, or the child is going to be born with some kind of birth defect, then abortion should be an option. If a woman goes out and gets pregnent because SHE chose to be careless, then that\'s WRONG !! Spin it however you want, but a human life is THE BIGGEST price to pay that you could possibly think of. Believe it or not, saintfan, the woman had all kind of options before she got pregnent. She could have not had sex. She could have used protection. She could have done all kinds of things. You know who had no choice in this matter? The baby !! So who deserves to pay the price? The mother or the baby? Get back to me on that and NO SPIN!!
GumboBC Banned Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 2,616