Well now, who's not next

iceshack149 · 03-25-2003, 01:05 AM

Now that\'s the spirit, whodat! I do agree that we apparently haven\'t done enough with FA\'\'s so far. I say apparently b/c we don\'t know what\'s completely involved with these decisions. It seems that we have the moulah to put some one special on the secondary.
I also agree that Haslett-us-down is walking a thin line this year. I, too, hate to see such a talented team go to waste. I put my faith into every head coach that the Saints pick up until they let me down. Who needs a girl to break your heart when you\'re a Saints fan?
We\'ll see what this \"shake-up\" in coaches does for us.
Venturi\'s also on a tight rope this year.
Is there any news on Sammy Knight yet?

pakowitz · 03-25-2003, 02:14 AM

yea gator, lets get some slander goin in this mofo, that what im talkin bout willis......

actually whodat, i dont think that our D sucks all that bad, i think we just had some problems at certian positions ie DT MLB, i believe if we had gotten more production out of these 2 positions our D would have been considerably better, and if u notice both of these positons protect the MIDDLE of the field, which is where most of the action goes down, i think we had a solid secondary we just didnt get the pressure on the qb that we would have liked and that leads to coverage breakdowns, if we can upgrade our DT position and get some more speed at MLB, i think our D will improve vastly over last year....if venturi figures out how to coach again.... :casstet:

WhoDat · 03-25-2003, 09:04 AM

FINALLY - an educated response. Thank you Pak, I have missed you greatly.

I agree that our secondary wasn\'t bad. In fact, if you remember, earlier in the off-season when everyone was screaming about them, I was the one that said that our secondary was the best Saints secondary I\'ve ever seen. However, I was vastly in the minority then, and if you believe what the Saints are saying, then the secondary is our biggest problem. Further - Sammy Knight, the best player we had back there, is now gone, and that affects the secondary greatly.

Again, I agree that our problems are in the middle and up front. However, I don\'t think we\'re as well off as you seem to. A couple of good DTs will make a huge difference. While MLB is a priority, I\'m not particularly enamored by ANY of our linebackers. That\'s a group that can be improved at every position.

Finally, again I agree that this defense isn\'t that far away. There were only THREE positions I wanted to see filled in free agency. MLB, corner, and safety. I think we can find a DT good enough to make an impact through the draft. I\'ve said all of this before, as you know, but for some reason people ignore it or forget it. In any case, my concern is that the players that we have picked up at those positions don\'t add very much if any talent. They aren\'t the kind of guys who can impact a game positively. I believe that we needed big time players in these positions - b/c let\'s face it Allen, Hodge, Carter, Thomas, and Mel Mitchell are all basically questionable or unproven. We need some stability these positions to help our young guys - and I wanted that by way of guys like Spikes, Woodson, and Jones that would also help our team.

Unfortunately, they haven\'t pulled in any of those types of players on the defensive side of the ball. And until they do, I cannot be optimist about the up-coming season. Our defense\'s ability to improve this year is the key to our success, and right now, I just haven\'t seen much improvement in terms of our talent pool. For some reason that makes the other guys on this board nuts. It seems pretty rational and realistic to me - but then, it\'s my opinion so it figures.

pakowitz · 03-25-2003, 12:19 PM

in response to your response, let me just hit on one thing..... im not overly thrilled about our linebackers either, but i would like to talk about the players that we do have...
all the linebackers that i beleive we have are
james allen
sedrick hodge
orlando ruff
darrin smith
roger knight?
brian cox?

am i missing anyone?
man, we need some linebackers

WhoDat · 03-25-2003, 01:25 PM

Hey Gator, I\'m not going to come after you. I know that your responses are always thought out... well almost always.

That\'s the only good explanation for what they could possibly be thinking. Let me say that, in my opinion, it won\'t work in New Orleans. At least that would mean that they have some purpose and/or plan, but I\'m just not very confident that\'s true. What amazes me is that Haslett played linebacker, if I\'m not mistaken. How can he possibly be looking at this linebacking corp and associate a word like good with it? B/c I don\'t think the words \'good\' and \'linebackers\' belong in the same sentence unless the word \'Saints\' is also not included... or maybe \'the Saints linebackers are good at getting beat.\'

iceshack149 · 03-25-2003, 01:40 PM

All of us who\'ve disagreed with whodat are imbiciles. We\'re uneducated. Let\'s disect his angry tyraids until we become educated enough to post any further notes on this site. Tell me what I believe in, whodat. Start from the beggining and give me every last detail. I CAN\'T STAND BEING UNEDUCATED! Do I like Joe Horn or not? How \'bout Brooks? Should I think of him as a young talent or a terrible quaterback? Wait, I know. He sucks. They ALL suck.
The Saints defense is crap, but not really? Kinda?
Is there a whodatology course that I can take to become educated? Whodat 101?

pakowitz · 03-25-2003, 01:43 PM

lmao, thats what im talkin bout iceshack, lets get rowdy up in this mutha Fka, but then....i have to agree wit whodat on dis one, i dont see any \"superstars\" at linebacker on our club

iceshack149 · 03-25-2003, 01:54 PM

There aren\'t any superstars at linebacker. There aren\'t any superstars on this whole defense. That\'s not my point. You know the saying, \"opinions are like *******s, everyone\'s got one.\" This board is for opinions. And the only thing that we all agree on is that Loomis and Haslett have much different opinions than us.

WhoDat · 03-25-2003, 02:12 PM

Exactly right iceshack, I do disagree with what Loomis and Haslett have been doing - and I see that translating into this team producing less than it should. You, for some odd reason, believe that even though Loomis and Haslett are doing what you think is the wrong thing, that they\'ll some how be good, even better than last year.

I\'ll ask you the same question that I asked D_it_up, which he is still yet to answer. Why will the Saints be better next year? Please give me the list of all of the great things that this team has done since it\'s second collapse in as many years to make sure it doesn\'t happen a third year.

lumm0x · 03-25-2003, 02:37 PM

I just had to add my 2 cents to this whole deal. I concur that everyone is entitled to an opinion and has a right to be heard, but I frankly find it difficult to read and justify defending OUR team.
I believe we had assembled a talented defense last year on paper and on previous performance. Every year we enter is an unknown. Did the Pats go into 2001-2002 believing they had a legitamate shot at a Super Bowl...of course they did, if you don\'t believe in your players then don\'t play or coach the game!!! Did the general population give them the same chance to be there? No way and anyone who says they picked the Pats to win that year would have a hard time keeping a straight face saying it.
Last year the Saints had two potential pro-bowl DT\'s that they estimated would stop the bleeding from the prior year against the run. Did Hand and Jackson play up to potential or prior performance level? No! Darren Howard played satisfactory at worst, I think he played a solid season. Charles Grant exceeded my expectations for a first year player and I\'m sure the coaching staff as well. Willie Whitehead did not pan out as a full-time starter as effectively he played a spot role the prior year. At LB, moving Clemons to MBL was a huge mistake, Darrin Smith finally lost that step everyone thought he would two years ago. They probably hoped he had another year in him as a starter to groom Allen. Sedrick Hodge played up to satisfaction. He shined at times and struggled at times. That is to be expected. In the secondary I feel Sammy Knight is taking a lot of blame for his play because he was forced to play away from his strengths to offset the problems created by our lack of push up the middle and difficulty picking up TE\'s and RB\'s by Smith and Clemons. Knight was forced into a more man coverage role or playing MLB against the run, his strength is ball hawking and reading a QB as a zone safety. Bellamy played like Jay Bellamy. I never thought he was quick or a good tackler. He is a head down hitter that doesn\'t tackle and he gets beat by recievers with good fakes pure speed. Dale Carter played more than well considering his preperation and late start. Fred Thomas in my mind had a great year and is a fantastic nickle corner. His physical limitations cannot be blamed against the big WR we face. I liked our depth in the secondary and thought Craver, Irvin and Fakhir Brown all contributed nicely. Hawthorne was a failed project and should free up a roster spot in my opinion.
All together on paper I think it looked well above average to begin the season, but ultimately I agree with those that assess the situation that it was a poor defensive game plan that misused our players strengths and a total lack of mentoring and motivating the defense. When they got behind the 8-ball early they needed to be led out and have their confidence restored and neither Venturi nor Haslett were able to do that. I have been pleased with Haslett as a whole coach and dipleased with his desire to involve himself more in the defense. I truly felt he should have stepped in a tried to right that part of the team when he clearly saw it wasn\'t being done....similar to Fassell taking Sean Payton\'s O-Coordinator role in N.Y. when the job wasn\'t getting done.
Again, I\'m not ecstatic about the offseason moves so far but I do honestly see them as marginal improvement. The problem is, we need drastic improvement and I agree we have missed the boat on a couple of impact players.

Everyone who made post in this thread has some valid points. I like when posts are constructive or can open a new thought pattern to see the benefit in a move, not just writing it off as absurd. It\'s like criticizing a prototype car before you start the motor or drive it. Lets give it a chance to run and hope they add a few more gadgets before release.

03-25-2003, 01:05 AM	#11
iceshack149 1000 Posts + Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Fairbanks, AK Posts: 4,299 Blog Entries: 1	Well now, who's not next Now that\'s the spirit, whodat! I do agree that we apparently haven\'t done enough with FA\'\'s so far. I say apparently b/c we don\'t know what\'s completely involved with these decisions. It seems that we have the moulah to put some one special on the secondary. I also agree that Haslett-us-down is walking a thin line this year. I, too, hate to see such a talented team go to waste. I put my faith into every head coach that the Saints pick up until they let me down. Who needs a girl to break your heart when you\'re a Saints fan? We\'ll see what this \"shake-up\" in coaches does for us. Venturi\'s also on a tight rope this year. Is there any news on Sammy Knight yet?
	"...it's good to have friends, no matter where they are."--JOESAM2002

03-25-2003, 02:14 AM	#12
pakowitz The Dark Overlord Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: dirty south Posts: 3,450	Well now, who's not next yea gator, lets get some slander goin in this mofo, that what im talkin bout willis...... actually whodat, i dont think that our D sucks all that bad, i think we just had some problems at certian positions ie DT MLB, i believe if we had gotten more production out of these 2 positions our D would have been considerably better, and if u notice both of these positons protect the MIDDLE of the field, which is where most of the action goes down, i think we had a solid secondary we just didnt get the pressure on the qb that we would have liked and that leads to coverage breakdowns, if we can upgrade our DT position and get some more speed at MLB, i think our D will improve vastly over last year....if venturi figures out how to coach again.... :casstet:
	I Live In Beastmode!

03-25-2003, 09:04 AM	#13
WhoDat 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 5,631	Well now, who's not next FINALLY - an educated response. Thank you Pak, I have missed you greatly. I agree that our secondary wasn\'t bad. In fact, if you remember, earlier in the off-season when everyone was screaming about them, I was the one that said that our secondary was the best Saints secondary I\'ve ever seen. However, I was vastly in the minority then, and if you believe what the Saints are saying, then the secondary is our biggest problem. Further - Sammy Knight, the best player we had back there, is now gone, and that affects the secondary greatly. Again, I agree that our problems are in the middle and up front. However, I don\'t think we\'re as well off as you seem to. A couple of good DTs will make a huge difference. While MLB is a priority, I\'m not particularly enamored by ANY of our linebackers. That\'s a group that can be improved at every position. Finally, again I agree that this defense isn\'t that far away. There were only THREE positions I wanted to see filled in free agency. MLB, corner, and safety. I think we can find a DT good enough to make an impact through the draft. I\'ve said all of this before, as you know, but for some reason people ignore it or forget it. In any case, my concern is that the players that we have picked up at those positions don\'t add very much if any talent. They aren\'t the kind of guys who can impact a game positively. I believe that we needed big time players in these positions - b/c let\'s face it Allen, Hodge, Carter, Thomas, and Mel Mitchell are all basically questionable or unproven. We need some stability these positions to help our young guys - and I wanted that by way of guys like Spikes, Woodson, and Jones that would also help our team. Unfortunately, they haven\'t pulled in any of those types of players on the defensive side of the ball. And until they do, I cannot be optimist about the up-coming season. Our defense\'s ability to improve this year is the key to our success, and right now, I just haven\'t seen much improvement in terms of our talent pool. For some reason that makes the other guys on this board nuts. It seems pretty rational and realistic to me - but then, it\'s my opinion so it figures.
WhoDat 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 5,631	\"Excuses, excuses, excuses. ThatÃ¢Â€Â™s all anyone ever makes for the New Orleans SaintsÃ¢Â€Â™ organization.\" - Eric Narcisse \"Being a Saints fan is almost like being addicted to crack,\" he said.[i]\"You know you should stop, but you just can\'t.\"

03-25-2003, 12:19 PM	#14
pakowitz The Dark Overlord Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: dirty south Posts: 3,450	Well now, who's not next in response to your response, let me just hit on one thing..... im not overly thrilled about our linebackers either, but i would like to talk about the players that we do have... all the linebackers that i beleive we have are james allen sedrick hodge orlando ruff darrin smith roger knight? brian cox? am i missing anyone? man, we need some linebackers

03-25-2003, 01:25 PM	#15
WhoDat 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 5,631	Well now, who's not next Hey Gator, I\'m not going to come after you. I know that your responses are always thought out... well almost always. That\'s the only good explanation for what they could possibly be thinking. Let me say that, in my opinion, it won\'t work in New Orleans. At least that would mean that they have some purpose and/or plan, but I\'m just not very confident that\'s true. What amazes me is that Haslett played linebacker, if I\'m not mistaken. How can he possibly be looking at this linebacking corp and associate a word like good with it? B/c I don\'t think the words \'good\' and \'linebackers\' belong in the same sentence unless the word \'Saints\' is also not included... or maybe \'the Saints linebackers are good at getting beat.\'
WhoDat 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 5,631	\"Excuses, excuses, excuses. ThatÃ¢Â€Â™s all anyone ever makes for the New Orleans SaintsÃ¢Â€Â™ organization.\" - Eric Narcisse \"Being a Saints fan is almost like being addicted to crack,\" he said.[i]\"You know you should stop, but you just can\'t.\"

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03-25-2003, 01:40 PM	#16
iceshack149 1000 Posts + Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Fairbanks, AK Posts: 4,299 Blog Entries: 1	Well now, who's not next All of us who\'ve disagreed with whodat are imbiciles. We\'re uneducated. Let\'s disect his angry tyraids until we become educated enough to post any further notes on this site. Tell me what I believe in, whodat. Start from the beggining and give me every last detail. I CAN\'T STAND BEING UNEDUCATED! Do I like Joe Horn or not? How \'bout Brooks? Should I think of him as a young talent or a terrible quaterback? Wait, I know. He sucks. They ALL suck. The Saints defense is crap, but not really? Kinda? Is there a whodatology course that I can take to become educated? Whodat 101?
	"...it's good to have friends, no matter where they are."--JOESAM2002

03-25-2003, 01:43 PM	#17
pakowitz The Dark Overlord Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: dirty south Posts: 3,450	Well now, who's not next lmao, thats what im talkin bout iceshack, lets get rowdy up in this mutha Fka, but then....i have to agree wit whodat on dis one, i dont see any \"superstars\" at linebacker on our club

03-25-2003, 01:54 PM	#18
iceshack149 1000 Posts + Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Fairbanks, AK Posts: 4,299 Blog Entries: 1	Well now, who's not next There aren\'t any superstars at linebacker. There aren\'t any superstars on this whole defense. That\'s not my point. You know the saying, \"opinions are like *******s, everyone\'s got one.\" This board is for opinions. And the only thing that we all agree on is that Loomis and Haslett have much different opinions than us.

03-25-2003, 02:12 PM	#19
WhoDat 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 5,631	Well now, who's not next Exactly right iceshack, I do disagree with what Loomis and Haslett have been doing - and I see that translating into this team producing less than it should. You, for some odd reason, believe that even though Loomis and Haslett are doing what you think is the wrong thing, that they\'ll some how be good, even better than last year. I\'ll ask you the same question that I asked D_it_up, which he is still yet to answer. Why will the Saints be better next year? Please give me the list of all of the great things that this team has done since it\'s second collapse in as many years to make sure it doesn\'t happen a third year.
WhoDat 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 5,631	\"Excuses, excuses, excuses. ThatÃ¢Â€Â™s all anyone ever makes for the New Orleans SaintsÃ¢Â€Â™ organization.\" - Eric Narcisse \"Being a Saints fan is almost like being addicted to crack,\" he said.[i]\"You know you should stop, but you just can\'t.\"

03-25-2003, 02:37 PM	#20
lumm0x Resident antediluvian Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 2,026	Well now, who's not next I just had to add my 2 cents to this whole deal. I concur that everyone is entitled to an opinion and has a right to be heard, but I frankly find it difficult to read and justify defending OUR team. I believe we had assembled a talented defense last year on paper and on previous performance. Every year we enter is an unknown. Did the Pats go into 2001-2002 believing they had a legitamate shot at a Super Bowl...of course they did, if you don\'t believe in your players then don\'t play or coach the game!!! Did the general population give them the same chance to be there? No way and anyone who says they picked the Pats to win that year would have a hard time keeping a straight face saying it. Last year the Saints had two potential pro-bowl DT\'s that they estimated would stop the bleeding from the prior year against the run. Did Hand and Jackson play up to potential or prior performance level? No! Darren Howard played satisfactory at worst, I think he played a solid season. Charles Grant exceeded my expectations for a first year player and I\'m sure the coaching staff as well. Willie Whitehead did not pan out as a full-time starter as effectively he played a spot role the prior year. At LB, moving Clemons to MBL was a huge mistake, Darrin Smith finally lost that step everyone thought he would two years ago. They probably hoped he had another year in him as a starter to groom Allen. Sedrick Hodge played up to satisfaction. He shined at times and struggled at times. That is to be expected. In the secondary I feel Sammy Knight is taking a lot of blame for his play because he was forced to play away from his strengths to offset the problems created by our lack of push up the middle and difficulty picking up TE\'s and RB\'s by Smith and Clemons. Knight was forced into a more man coverage role or playing MLB against the run, his strength is ball hawking and reading a QB as a zone safety. Bellamy played like Jay Bellamy. I never thought he was quick or a good tackler. He is a head down hitter that doesn\'t tackle and he gets beat by recievers with good fakes pure speed. Dale Carter played more than well considering his preperation and late start. Fred Thomas in my mind had a great year and is a fantastic nickle corner. His physical limitations cannot be blamed against the big WR we face. I liked our depth in the secondary and thought Craver, Irvin and Fakhir Brown all contributed nicely. Hawthorne was a failed project and should free up a roster spot in my opinion. All together on paper I think it looked well above average to begin the season, but ultimately I agree with those that assess the situation that it was a poor defensive game plan that misused our players strengths and a total lack of mentoring and motivating the defense. When they got behind the 8-ball early they needed to be led out and have their confidence restored and neither Venturi nor Haslett were able to do that. I have been pleased with Haslett as a whole coach and dipleased with his desire to involve himself more in the defense. I truly felt he should have stepped in a tried to right that part of the team when he clearly saw it wasn\'t being done....similar to Fassell taking Sean Payton\'s O-Coordinator role in N.Y. when the job wasn\'t getting done. Again, I\'m not ecstatic about the offseason moves so far but I do honestly see them as marginal improvement. The problem is, we need drastic improvement and I agree we have missed the boat on a couple of impact players. Everyone who made post in this thread has some valid points. I like when posts are constructive or can open a new thought pattern to see the benefit in a move, not just writing it off as absurd. It\'s like criticizing a prototype car before you start the motor or drive it. Lets give it a chance to run and hope they add a few more gadgets before release.