Re: Observations from the Saints' Win over the Patriots
 

After week 1, there was some media saying he was gonna be in the talk of MVP. Then that went away after week 2. Lol. I think right now he's gonna get the extremes from both sides by media.

For me, he's just blah so far. He's not making a lot of mistakes. But I haven't seen anything to make me believe he's gonna have a career year here either. Just my opinion bro.

Re: Observations from the Saints' Win over the Patriots
 

Not only that Mac Jones was making the same throws Jameis was making and they said Jones was trying to make something out of nothing and he’s a warrior and sh*t like that and Jameis makes the same throw and it’s he needs to do a better job and this that and the other. Turn down your tv and turn up the local radio. The hypocrisy is real, the narrative is real, don’t fall for it people

Re: Observations from the Saints' Win over the Patriots
 

On point. He’s not lit it up. Hopefully with Thomas eventually back and a developing Stills in the offense things will open up more. Trautman has t been what was hoped for either.

Re: Observations from the Saints' Win over the Patriots
 

I'm still hopeful that Winston can lead this team. He just hasn't looked the part yet. That's OK. We're 2-1 and I'm a patient man considering I'm so impatient.

Re: Observations from the Saints' Win over the Patriots
 

Re: Observations from the Saints' Win over the Patriots
 

So Maddy said Ramz had "4 plays of 0 effort" but Underhill and Deuce both agreed that RR was very good.

Not sure what player Maddy was focusing on Sunday :rolleyes:.

Again, Ryan is the least likely player to be concerned with on the O line.

Re: Observations from the Saints' Win over the Patriots
 

And to piggyback on Deuce analysis on Ruiz (rough game, losing leverage), that's two straight games ...

I've asked this question last week but how likely is it we move Austin R to center & slide Ruiz to guard until McCoy is 100? Ruiz is really getting abused when a NT is lined up over him.

Those free rushes are going to get Winston hurt (sack or running) or force him into a bad throw & subsequent turnover.

Re: Observations from the Saints' Win over the Patriots
 

I thought all the talk of camp was how much better Ruiz was -_-

Guy is getting abused week in and week out it seems. First Round picks really aren't going well over the last few years.

Re: Observations from the Saints' Win over the Patriots
 

Week in week out? They've only played three weeks and he looked great week one in relief of McCoy. In week two the entire team was discombobulated with half the coaching staff missing and defensive holes everywhere. He looked really good all last season. It is a tad early to write him off as a first round failure, don't you think? :D

Re: Observations from the Saints' Win over the Patriots
 

Cosidering he hasn't had reps at the position I'm fine with giving him some time to grow into the player we hoped for. Before McCoy went down the buzz was about how well he was looking in TC and the preseason.

Re: Observations from the Saints' Win over the Patriots
 

I mean he didn't look really good all last season, he basically ended Brees' career when he whiffed on a block.

Re: Observations from the Saints' Win over the Patriots
 

Yes the media was building Winston up in the beginning. MVP etc. A year behind Brees, Coach Payton blah blah blah. NOW they have seen him. No change from Tampa. So most of them are jumping off the Winston bandwagon. Payton not giving him a chance to throw too many times is because he knows what that would mean. It is so boring to hear the "anyone who followed Brees would have a lot of criticism" etc. HONEST eyeball evaluation. "He is who he was". In the words of the great american philosopher Forest Gump, "You can't fix stupid." QB play REQUIRES cerebral play. We're not seeing it.

Re: Observations from the Saints' Win over the Patriots
 

Never a JW fan with all the crap in his college and early Tampa days. Most of us certainly have things that we did during that period of our life that do not define us for the rest of our lives thankfully.

I think JW has matured and is a changed person from his earlier years.

His history in Tampa was not great but he never had the coaching he needed to learn the process of being and NFL QB and to effectively use his skill set and arm talent.

Again as I stated earlier, I was not a JW fan but also honest enough to know he was better than Terry Taysom or Drew if Drew choose to return this year.

So I see and hear him being critizised for throwing under a 200 yards a game for 3 games like he can’ throw or is not able to handle reading defenses. Let’s get real for a second, he threw for over 5000 yards in 2019 and had 2 seasons (2015-16) over 4000 yards and 1 season (2017) with 3500 yards. The man can throw the ball, he did throw 30 INT’s in 2019.

He’s not throwing ball more because SP’s game play calling is not asking for to throw more, not because JW can’t throw or carry an offense if needed. Brees in his prime could make just about any skill player with average skill look like an all pro. I venture to guess it’s SP that does not have the confidence level required in our current receivers to ask JW to pass the ball much more than currently being asked. Add an offensive line that is missing now 2 key starters and Ruiz in a position he did really spend any prep time this off-season and JW has not had much of a opportunity to get comfortable in the pocket.

Only a talent on Brees’s level could make the current offensive unit look average to respectable in the passing game. We need bodies and talent back before any legit call on JW an be made.

JW’s INT’s in game 2 did not lose the game the Panthers just kicked our butt on both sides of the ball.

Re: Observations from the Saints' Win over the Patriots
 

Sorry Thirty, I disagree. It’s not same old Tampa Winston. He’s being very cerebral in that he’s smart enough to not be throwing passes he shouldn’t for the most part. He’s thrown passes away and took sacks rather than toss it up. He’s on a 39 TD 11 INT pace. That’s hardly same old Tampa Jameis. And he’s not had a Godwin/Evans type WR combo to throw to. It’s only been three games (with a displaced team who has had COVID issues) but I see more maturity on his part. Time will tell.

Re: Observations from the Saints' Win over the Patriots
 

And to be fair Drew didn't start the year off in 2006 good either, neither did Teddy but once they settled in they rolled. It took them a few games. This is a complex offense. Drew wasn’t Drew till 2009 it took a couple years. Some are looking for a finished product when it’s still in its infancy

Re: Observations from the Saints' Win over the Patriots
 

Re: Observations from the Saints' Win over the Patriots
 

The offensive line is a unit. One thing I have heard many times over the years from players and coaches alike is that a mistake by one lineman can reflect badly upon another. What we see as a "whiff" by one player on the line is very often that player trying to cover on a missed assignment by the man beside him. This can happen more frequently on a line in flux. That said, even the best of offensive linemen miss a block here or there that is his take. It happens and doesn't always happen in a planting of the QB.

Re: Observations from the Saints' Win over the Patriots
 

He played in 7 games but he still had Emmanuel Sanders and Jared Cook. Those guys are better than what we got now

Re: Observations from the Saints' Win over the Patriots
 

Re: Observations from the Saints' Win over the Patriots
 

Yea around 3 games. They used Sanders for the short and intermediate game when MT was out. It worked sorta but they weren’t playing to Sanders strengths which is stretching the field. Thomas wasn't 100% no doubt and he still lead the team in receptions and yards during Taysom’s start. Cook in all honesty was solid/good just that when he screwed up it was at the worst time. Since we don’t have much cash we gotta hope our homegrown talent will pan out in time as they get experience, mostly talking about Callaway. And it might take Stills a couple weeks to learn a good chunk of the playbook so he can be out there more often. I’m sure this is the defense approach to Roby as well

Re: Observations from the Saints' Win over the Patriots
 

Keep in mind as well that Winston hasn’t exactly had the same chance to play and learn with the starters on the team as other QBs normally have. Weak armed Drew in his final season had many previous years to work with the coaches, line, backs, and some of the WRs and TEs. Winston had a COVID preseason as a backup last year, then a training camp/pre-season splitting time with Hill taking snaps with the first string players this year. He’s still learning a new system with new players.

Re: Observations from the Saints' Win over the Patriots
 

JP -

Would you rather have Thomas, Cook, Sanders & Smith in your arsenal or ...

Hogan, Humphrey, Lil Jordan & Juwan ? Give me last year's group all day.
JW doesn't have much to work with at the moment but I do like the pick up of Stills.

Next year, drafting a WR within the first 2 rounds should be a priority. Hindsight is 20/20 but I never liked the Ruiz pick. Claypool, Brandon Aiyuk & Van Jefferson were available to us. All I see them doing is catching passes and moving the chains.

Re: Observations from the Saints' Win over the Patriots
 

I wasn’t sold on Ruiz either but not to the level like when they drafted Peat. As soon as they said his name I was like oh lord. But I wanted Patrick Queen when we got Ruiz, lol.

Re: Observations from the Saints' Win over the Patriots
 

Doesn’t look like Stafford is having much of a problem getting acclimated over in LA. Plenty of veteran Qb’s have stepped right in on a new team and had success. Most without a coach like Payton, a HOF qb, and a year to study the system (COVID or not). The fact Winston has been here as long as he has should be a benefit him, not hinder him. He should know the system by now.
Still think Winston is our best option but I don’t see him as a long term solution.

Re: Observations from the Saints' Win over the Patriots
 

I agree with everything here but you have to wonder why Payton isn’t asking him to throw more. Payton has been criticized for getting “too cute”, abandoning the run, and getting too pass happy. He likes to be aggressive, sometimes to a fault. I just don’t see him as the type of guy to not let Winston use his arm, which is one of Winstons biggest attributes unless there’s a good reason not to.
BTW I’m pulling for Winston. I respect how he’s bought into the system and it’s obvious he is trying to do everything he can to succeed. I admire how he’s matured and embraced the opportunity for a second chance.

Re: Observations from the Saints' Win over the Patriots
 

Do you want to compare the receiving corps of the two teams? Did Stafford have to split camp and preseason reps with another QB? Did Stafford have only two preseason games? Not an apt comparison at all.

Re: Observations from the Saints' Win over the Patriots
 

Winston had 2 years. Surely that’s enough time to get to know the system. Being here for as long as he has, stepping in for half a game when Brees went down, and working privately with some of his team mates all offseason is just as good as what Stafford got coming into this season. Winston was working with our guys before Stafford even met his team mates or cracked open a play book in LA .

As far as personnel you are right, Stafford has some legit threats but you said Winston was still learning the system. He knows the system and continues to study it as all good players do. His main problem isn’t with the system, or even personnel, it’s still his decision making. If he was being asked to air it out all game and took a couple of those chances so be it, high risk/high reward. That’s not what’s been asked of him so far but it’s still happening.
I get that players aren’t getting open but the answer isn’t to try and force it. The defense was doing its job, don’t make it harder.


Thomas will help but I still don’t see Winston as a guy who can get you back in the game when you are down.

Re: Observations from the Saints' Win over the Patriots
 

I’d still wager Stafford had more work with his first team players than Winston has had with the Saints first team players considering the situations. He had none last year because Hill got them and Hill got half this year and Stafford had three preseason games. Plus Stafford has been a 13 year starter while Winston has only been a 5 year starter. And I’ll concede that Stafford is likely a better overall QB at this point. But he’s always been considered a very good QB.

Winston’s decision making has him at a very good turnover total and TD/INT ratio (especially for him) through the first three games. The list of QBs with more INTs than him this season is long and has some big names like Mahomes on it. I thought one of the most cerebral plays I’ve seen him make was to throw the ball over Kamara’s head out of bounds when no one was open in the Green Bay game. The game plans have not called on him to need to step back and air it out. The effects of the hurricane and COVID losses have been genuine. Time will tell what comes though and weather he will be asked to and will be able to rack up passing yards when needed. If he has legitimate receivers I feel he will be able to based on his 5,000 yard passing season. Missing 2 starting O lineman going forward isn’t going to help though.

Re: Observations from the Saints' Win over the Patriots
 

Re: Observations from the Saints' Win over the Patriots
 

Let’s look at some numbers. In 2006, his first year as starter with the team, Brees through his first three games had:

3 TDs
2 Int
7.2 yards/attempt
team 25.3 ppg
Horn, Colston, Moore, Henderson, Bush, Deuce as offensive weapons.
4 pre-season games to work with the first team starters.
0 games where team was displaced by Hurricane
0 coaches missing for Covid protocol.

Winston in his first 3 starts for the Saints has:

7 TDs
2 Ints
6.1 Y/A
24.3 ppg
Kamara...and a bunch of guys less talented than Brees had.
1 preseason game working with starters.
3 games team displaced by Hurricane.
5 coaches at least missed from Covid protocols.

Now, you can call someone pointing out these facts as being an apologist if it makes you feel better. I call it being a realist. I also don’t see the comparative “ineffectiveness” you are complaining about. Payton had two seasons watching Winston and I don’t think he would make him his starter if he had doubts about his ability to pass the ball downfield. But, as you say, time will tell.

Re: Observations from the Saints' Win over the Patriots
 

Re: Observations from the Saints' Win over the Patriots
 

Re: Observations from the Saints' Win over the Patriots
 

Just like some here are Taysom apologist around here too. I love Taysom but I know he’s not a 17 game every snap starting QB, I’m sorry. But he’s perfect for what he does. Oh and what about the Teddy haters when he first started he first couple of games. Some on here y’all know who y’all are talking about Teddy sucks and check down Teddy, Teddy can’t throw down the field. Then when SP let Teddy rip, everyone was changing there tune chanting Teddy, Teddy, Teddy. And before you give me his 3-1 record, the defense carried the team not Taysom stats all the fumbles 6 and fumbles 3 lost the four games to pair with four td’s and 2 ints. He’s as turnover prone Jameis. And that infamous Philadelphia game he couldn't come back from behind to win that either, so how is he this vast improvement from Jameis? Don’t let the three wins confuse some of y’all the defense carried him just like they are carrying them now.

Re: Observations from the Saints' Win over the Patriots
 

But that’s kind of the point. The current team doesn’t have the weapons IMO to help Winston get the ball downfield. I think that’s where the “issues” he’s had have mostly come from. Not his inability to read coverages and make decisions. It’s not people being Winston apologists. I could be wrong though.

Re: Observations from the Saints' Win over the Patriots
 

“They are still teeing it off at 12 noon fellas” 😉 - Herm Edwards

Re: Observations from the Saints' Win over the Patriots
 

Quick study on Highland Park (Stafford) and the Rams.

The guy is a good QB but more importantly he has good/elite weapons (I like to refer to them as route runners) + a solid pass catching TE.

Cooper Kuup (ask Lattimore), Robert Woods & Van Jefferson. Then add in a guy who can blow the top off (see last game) in Desean Jackson. That will be difficult to defend in the post season. There was a reason why Matthew wasn’t succeeding in Detroit. Not much around him (see Winston).

Saints don’t have that type of offensive firepower, but we do have an above avg DEFENSE.

Long season though, keep grinding.

Re: Observations from the Saints' Win over the Patriots
 

Re: Observations from the Saints' Win over the Patriots
 

Looks like we’ll have to agree to disagree. Your judging Jameis on his Tampa days and his small sample size here too. All I’m saying is give the man a chance. If we did that then Tannehill and other qb’s that washed out on the original teams would be out the league. If he pans out fantastic if not then move on to Book or dip into the draft or FA to find another. I trust Sean in that if he thinks he’s ok then that’s good enough. I want this team to win no matter who is under center I’m rooting for them not waiting for them to fail

Re: Observations from the Saints' Win over the Patriots
 

I respect everyone has an opinion Boston, we all do. But you can’t state facts with your views that contradict the word from Above … There’s only one way to view this … JW is running the same offense that TB ran when Brees was out in 2019. JW is running more or less the same offense that TH ran in 2020 when Brees was out. The offensive line has not performed to the same level as it did in 2019 and 2020 plus JW does not have the WR’s that TB and TH had to throw to. But it’s JW who has been ineffective … Never a JW fan but he is “OUR QB” and I’m on him until he’s not our QB.

Game 1 was not an outlier.
Game 2 Panthers Defense man handled our OL and disrupted the ENTIRE OFFENSIVE’s ability run or pass.
Game 3 We played well and took what NE gave us.

Looks very familiar to 2019 and 2020 with Brees out. But I think JW and the passing game will improve significantly when;

Our receiving group returns.

Our OL stabilizes.

Re: Observations from the Saints' Win over the Patriots
 

Right, look at what Goff has to throw to in Detroit at least Stafford had Golladay. Though Goff still sucks anyways