Deshaun Watson to Saints?

FinSaint · 03-19-2022, 07:39 AM

Originally Posted by jeanpierre

Keep in mind Loomis traded two mid-round first round picks to move up and take Johnathan Sullivan...

Loomis also rubberstamped the Jairus Byrd deal...

And this rolling debt forward has now led to us losing two members of that great 2017 draft class...

Loomis should've step down with Payton, allowed Ireland to take over...

As far as being the morality police, Brees showed what can happen to a locker room when you choose men of substance to lead your team...

Loomis has been the GM for 20 years now - naturally he has made bad decisions during that time.

Byrd, Jason David, Browner and Spiller we all bad FA signings without a doubt.

As for 1st round picks - Sullivan was a big miss, but they picked Stinchcomb with the next pick in that draft. Meachem in the 1st round in 2007 was a miss as was that whole draft with the exception of Bushrod in the 4th. Ellis in 2008 ended up as a disappointment, but they did get Porter and Nicks in that draft. Vaccaro in 2013 wasn't a total failure and they got Armstead in the 3rd that year. 2015 with Peat and Anthony was a failure, especially if you look at the picks as a whole that year with P.J. Williams as the only bright spot. 2020 with Ruiz is a miss at the moment, but this coming season could still turn that around, and the same goes for Baun and Trautman.

Overall, in my opinion, they've had more successes with the high-priced FAs and high picks in the draft than on average in the league.

Also, how much of the FA decisions - especially the big splashes/misses - were driven by SP while Loomis and co were only left with finding a way to make it work fiscally?

I think most of the league is moving towards the way Saints are manipulating the cap numbers, and within a decade that might (will) become the norm of how to construct salary structures around the league.

And finally, if you are going to criticize the contracts Loomis has given - you also have to give him credit for the bad contracts he has chosen not to give with the latest example being Watson.

Rell&Gold · 03-19-2022, 07:47 AM

Originally Posted by Boston Saint

Good! Now sign Winston. Sign Armstead. Sign Melvin Gordon. Draft a WR. Draft a safety. 10 win season no problem.

Melvin Gordon I'd pass rather draft a RB in the 2nd or 3rd to pair with Kamara

saintsfan1976 · 03-19-2022, 07:59 AM

If we're willing and able to pursue a franchise QB, why not go after Lamar Jackson?

He's in his 5th year, due $23MM without a long term deal. Meanwhile Baltimore is spending like a drunken sailor. Are they building around LJ or Huntley?

I've been a proponent of Jameis since offseason started. I was wooed by the opportunity to potentially cement the position for the next decade. I'm happy we didn't sacrifice the world for him but it makes me wonder if the front office is done trying...

TheOak · 03-19-2022, 08:03 AM

Originally Posted by FinSaint

Also, how much of the FA decisions - especially the big splashes/misses - were driven by SP while Loomis and co were only left with finding a way to make it work fiscally?

.

This past week... the Watson fiasco and what we were preparing to give along with the damage that was done to the integrity to the locker room... You still believe Sean Payton was the driving force in that statement.

The underlined portion is much of the exact same but Sean Payton isnt here.

saintsfan1976 · 03-19-2022, 08:36 AM

Originally Posted by TheOak

This past week... the Watson fiasco and what we were preparing to give along with the damage that was done to the integrity to the locker room... You still believe Sean Payton was the driving force in that statement.

The underlined portion is much of the exact same but Sean Payton isnt here.

Our own players were actively recruiting Watson, even restructuring contracts to get under the cap. I don’t thing the locker room is damaged the way you think it is.

TheOak · 03-19-2022, 09:21 AM

Originally Posted by saintsfan1976

Our own players were actively recruiting Watson, even restructuring contracts to get under the cap. I don’t thing the locker room is damaged the way you think it is.

You think players restructure contracts to help the team? They smartly agree to restructure because in a career field that can end in a spit second on the field the restructures give them guaranteed money, it converts salary into instant signing bonus in their pocket. The cap is Loomis's problem, they players don't give a sh1t, they are in there fighting for as much money as they can get in spite of the cap.

You need to have a chat with CGJ about how it feels to be put on an auction block unwillingly. You need to have a chat with his defensive secondary that depends on him.

FinSaint · 03-19-2022, 11:17 AM

Originally Posted by TheOak

This past week... the Watson fiasco and what we were preparing to give along with the damage that was done to the integrity to the locker room... You still believe Sean Payton was the driving force in that statement.

The underlined portion is much of the exact same but Sean Payton isnt here.

What were the specifics of the Saints' offer to both the Texans and Watson? I have only seen speculations and rumors regarding the offers, so I'd be interested in knowing the facts.

I read at least one article during this past week that claimed Allen wanted Watson in a big way, and then in a few articles that Loomis was aggressive and all in on trying to land the deal. Which came first - the chicken or the egg?

Lastly, I just don't agree with you on the notion of "Watson fiasco." If you are approaching this from the morality standpoint, then you have to turn around and give Loomis and the FO credit for bringing in guys like Demario Davis and Benjamin Watson or severing ties with a player like Junior Gallette.

TheOak · 03-19-2022, 11:58 AM

Originally Posted by FinSaint

What were the specifics of the Saints' offer to both the Texans and Watson? I have only seen speculations and rumors regarding the offers, so I'd be interested in knowing the facts.

I read at least one article during this past week that claimed Allen wanted Watson in a big way, and then in a few articles that Loomis was aggressive and all in on trying to land the deal. Which came first - the chicken or the egg?

Lastly, I just don't agree with you on the notion of "Watson fiasco." If you are approaching this from the morality standpoint, then you have to turn around and give Loomis and the FO credit for bringing in guys like Demario Davis and Benjamin Watson or severing ties with a player like Junior Gallette.

No one that I know of knows the specifics or I haven’t seen them available to the public. That said, there are reasonable assumptions that can be made due to the cap vs what we have to work with.

Look, I get the recent only the ‘only the facts matter’ movement but a fact of many matters is that perception can sometimes do more damage than reality and if no one had a discussion with those players before their names were listed that’s piss-poor management. I suspect agents were notified of the possibilities and they in turn told their players which is why there was a general tone change on social media for some.

And maybe no one said sh1t to anyone because no one’s name was up for trade but that in it self… well you see how much anxiety it created in these forums? Now be a player left in the wind.

If I’m a player and I’m traded as part of a last minute deal, I get it, that’s the game. If I’m part of a trade package for 3-4 days and no one tells me, I won’t tweet I’ll be in the correct persons office and we will discuss future expectations.

On your last paragraph you’ve completely misunderstood me. My comments have zero to do with my feelings on the morality of the decisions and everything to do with a players feelings after he puts in work year over year to build something and he is sent elsewhere due to someone else. This also isn’t about players that do not pull their weight lol, no one is wanting Junior Gallette in a trade.

Seriously these players get pissed if someone starts a game before them and you don’t see sending them to another team as a bone of contention?

FinSaint · 03-19-2022, 12:40 PM

Originally Posted by TheOak

well you see how much anxiety it created in these forums? Now be a player left in the wind.

How can we criticize the terms that the Saints offered if we don't know what those terms were? Also, clearly the Saints' FO had defined limits as to what they were willing (or capable) to offer, and weren't willing to offer what the Browns did.

I really don't think the players supposedly involved and made aware of it hold a grudge or let hurt feelings to linger on. They are professionals and know what the deal is, and entering the FA period all of them udoubtedly, at least subconsciously, prepare for the possibility that they are switching teams.

Now, what happened with Mayfield and Ryan is different, especially the situation with Ryan.

You are correct that probably most of the anxiety created by the situation was amongst the fans, but that is nothing the Saints' FO should concern themselves with.

Boston Saint · 03-19-2022, 01:36 PM

Originally Posted by Rell&Gold

Melvin Gordon I'd pass rather draft a RB in the 2nd or 3rd to pair with Kamara

I’m hoping we can get Alabama’s RB in the second round.

03-19-2022, 07:39 AM	#621
FinSaint Site Donor 2015 Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: Finland... formerly Southern Virginia Posts: 4,961	Re: Deshaun Watson to Saints? Originally Posted by jeanpierre Keep in mind Loomis traded two mid-round first round picks to move up and take Johnathan Sullivan... Loomis also rubberstamped the Jairus Byrd deal... And this rolling debt forward has now led to us losing two members of that great 2017 draft class... Loomis should've step down with Payton, allowed Ireland to take over... As far as being the morality police, Brees showed what can happen to a locker room when you choose men of substance to lead your team... Loomis has been the GM for 20 years now - naturally he has made bad decisions during that time. Byrd, Jason David, Browner and Spiller we all bad FA signings without a doubt. As for 1st round picks - Sullivan was a big miss, but they picked Stinchcomb with the next pick in that draft. Meachem in the 1st round in 2007 was a miss as was that whole draft with the exception of Bushrod in the 4th. Ellis in 2008 ended up as a disappointment, but they did get Porter and Nicks in that draft. Vaccaro in 2013 wasn't a total failure and they got Armstead in the 3rd that year. 2015 with Peat and Anthony was a failure, especially if you look at the picks as a whole that year with P.J. Williams as the only bright spot. 2020 with Ruiz is a miss at the moment, but this coming season could still turn that around, and the same goes for Baun and Trautman. Overall, in my opinion, they've had more successes with the high-priced FAs and high picks in the draft than on average in the league. Also, how much of the FA decisions - especially the big splashes/misses - were driven by SP while Loomis and co were only left with finding a way to make it work fiscally? I think most of the league is moving towards the way Saints are manipulating the cap numbers, and within a decade that might (will) become the norm of how to construct salary structures around the league. And finally, if you are going to criticize the contracts Loomis has given - you also have to give him credit for the bad contracts he has chosen not to give with the latest example being Watson. Crusader and AsylumGuido like this.
	"I'm not bashing people, I'm bashing their opinions because in my opinion their opinion is wrong" - Danno

03-19-2022, 07:47 AM	#622
Rell&Gold 1000 Posts + Join Date: Apr 2012 Location: Washington, D.C Posts: 2,887	Re: Deshaun Watson to Saints? Originally Posted by Boston Saint Good! Now sign Winston. Sign Armstead. Sign Melvin Gordon. Draft a WR. Draft a safety. 10 win season no problem. Melvin Gordon I'd pass rather draft a RB in the 2nd or 3rd to pair with Kamara

03-19-2022, 07:59 AM	#623
saintsfan1976 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Atlanta Posts: 10,832 Blog Entries: 3	Re: Deshaun Watson to Saints? If we're willing and able to pursue a franchise QB, why not go after Lamar Jackson? He's in his 5th year, due $23MM without a long term deal. Meanwhile Baltimore is spending like a drunken sailor. Are they building around LJ or Huntley? I've been a proponent of Jameis since offseason started. I was wooed by the opportunity to potentially cement the position for the next decade. I'm happy we didn't sacrifice the world for him but it makes me wonder if the front office is done trying...

03-19-2022, 08:03 AM	#624
TheOak 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Cypress Tx. Posts: 19,026	Re: Deshaun Watson to Saints? Originally Posted by FinSaint Also, how much of the FA decisions - especially the big splashes/misses - were driven by SP while Loomis and co were only left with finding a way to make it work fiscally? . This past week... the Watson fiasco and what we were preparing to give along with the damage that was done to the integrity to the locker room... You still believe Sean Payton was the driving force in that statement. The underlined portion is much of the exact same but Sean Payton isnt here. SmashMouth likes this.

03-19-2022, 08:36 AM	#625
saintsfan1976 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Atlanta Posts: 10,832 Blog Entries: 3	Re: Deshaun Watson to Saints? Originally Posted by TheOak This past week... the Watson fiasco and what we were preparing to give along with the damage that was done to the integrity to the locker room... You still believe Sean Payton was the driving force in that statement. The underlined portion is much of the exact same but Sean Payton isnt here. Our own players were actively recruiting Watson, even restructuring contracts to get under the cap. I don’t thing the locker room is damaged the way you think it is.

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03-19-2022, 09:21 AM	#626
TheOak 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Cypress Tx. Posts: 19,026	Re: Deshaun Watson to Saints? Originally Posted by saintsfan1976 Our own players were actively recruiting Watson, even restructuring contracts to get under the cap. I don’t thing the locker room is damaged the way you think it is. You think players restructure contracts to help the team? They smartly agree to restructure because in a career field that can end in a spit second on the field the restructures give them guaranteed money, it converts salary into instant signing bonus in their pocket. The cap is Loomis's problem, they players don't give a sh1t, they are in there fighting for as much money as they can get in spite of the cap. You need to have a chat with CGJ about how it feels to be put on an auction block unwillingly. You need to have a chat with his defensive secondary that depends on him.
	It's not what you look at that matters, it's what you see. ~ Henry David Thoreau

03-19-2022, 11:17 AM	#627
FinSaint Site Donor 2015 Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: Finland... formerly Southern Virginia Posts: 4,961	Re: Deshaun Watson to Saints? Originally Posted by TheOak This past week... the Watson fiasco and what we were preparing to give along with the damage that was done to the integrity to the locker room... You still believe Sean Payton was the driving force in that statement. The underlined portion is much of the exact same but Sean Payton isnt here. What were the specifics of the Saints' offer to both the Texans and Watson? I have only seen speculations and rumors regarding the offers, so I'd be interested in knowing the facts. I read at least one article during this past week that claimed Allen wanted Watson in a big way, and then in a few articles that Loomis was aggressive and all in on trying to land the deal. Which came first - the chicken or the egg? Lastly, I just don't agree with you on the notion of "Watson fiasco." If you are approaching this from the morality standpoint, then you have to turn around and give Loomis and the FO credit for bringing in guys like Demario Davis and Benjamin Watson or severing ties with a player like Junior Gallette.
	"I'm not bashing people, I'm bashing their opinions because in my opinion their opinion is wrong" - Danno

03-19-2022, 11:58 AM	#628
TheOak 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Cypress Tx. Posts: 19,026	Re: Deshaun Watson to Saints? Originally Posted by FinSaint What were the specifics of the Saints' offer to both the Texans and Watson? I have only seen speculations and rumors regarding the offers, so I'd be interested in knowing the facts. I read at least one article during this past week that claimed Allen wanted Watson in a big way, and then in a few articles that Loomis was aggressive and all in on trying to land the deal. Which came first - the chicken or the egg? Lastly, I just don't agree with you on the notion of "Watson fiasco." If you are approaching this from the morality standpoint, then you have to turn around and give Loomis and the FO credit for bringing in guys like Demario Davis and Benjamin Watson or severing ties with a player like Junior Gallette. No one that I know of knows the specifics or I haven’t seen them available to the public. That said, there are reasonable assumptions that can be made due to the cap vs what we have to work with. Look, I get the recent only the ‘only the facts matter’ movement but a fact of many matters is that perception can sometimes do more damage than reality and if no one had a discussion with those players before their names were listed that’s piss-poor management. I suspect agents were notified of the possibilities and they in turn told their players which is why there was a general tone change on social media for some. And maybe no one said sh1t to anyone because no one’s name was up for trade but that in it self… well you see how much anxiety it created in these forums? Now be a player left in the wind. If I’m a player and I’m traded as part of a last minute deal, I get it, that’s the game. If I’m part of a trade package for 3-4 days and no one tells me, I won’t tweet I’ll be in the correct persons office and we will discuss future expectations. On your last paragraph you’ve completely misunderstood me. My comments have zero to do with my feelings on the morality of the decisions and everything to do with a players feelings after he puts in work year over year to build something and he is sent elsewhere due to someone else. This also isn’t about players that do not pull their weight lol, no one is wanting Junior Gallette in a trade. Seriously these players get pissed if someone starts a game before them and you don’t see sending them to another team as a bone of contention?
	It's not what you look at that matters, it's what you see. ~ Henry David Thoreau

03-19-2022, 12:40 PM	#629
FinSaint Site Donor 2015 Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: Finland... formerly Southern Virginia Posts: 4,961	Re: Deshaun Watson to Saints? Originally Posted by TheOak well you see how much anxiety it created in these forums? Now be a player left in the wind. How can we criticize the terms that the Saints offered if we don't know what those terms were? Also, clearly the Saints' FO had defined limits as to what they were willing (or capable) to offer, and weren't willing to offer what the Browns did. I really don't think the players supposedly involved and made aware of it hold a grudge or let hurt feelings to linger on. They are professionals and know what the deal is, and entering the FA period all of them udoubtedly, at least subconsciously, prepare for the possibility that they are switching teams. Now, what happened with Mayfield and Ryan is different, especially the situation with Ryan. You are correct that probably most of the anxiety created by the situation was amongst the fans, but that is nothing the Saints' FO should concern themselves with. Crusader and AsylumGuido like this.
	"I'm not bashing people, I'm bashing their opinions because in my opinion their opinion is wrong" - Danno

03-19-2022, 01:36 PM	#630
Boston Saint 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Nov 2020 Location: Massachusetts Posts: 5,137	Re: Deshaun Watson to Saints? Originally Posted by Rell&Gold Melvin Gordon I'd pass rather draft a RB in the 2nd or 3rd to pair with Kamara I’m hoping we can get Alabama’s RB in the second round.