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Observations from games impacting Saints

this is a discussion within the Saints Community Forum; Originally Posted by AsylumGuido Coaching contracts don't toll. That was made clear by several sources as soon as his retirement announcement was made. Payton's contract will expire after the 2024 season. Your wording is a little confusing, Megatron and Lucks ...

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Old 09-14-2022, 12:42 PM   #41
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Re: Observations from games impacting Saints

Originally Posted by AsylumGuido View Post
Coaching contracts don't toll. That was made clear by several sources as soon as his retirement announcement was made. Payton's contract will expire after the 2024 season.
Your wording is a little confusing, Megatron and Lucks contracts don't toll, for coaches its more like 'there is no such thing as tolling or not, they expire when they expire.' Ok so we have two more offseasons to trade him. No team is likely to just wait it out if they have an opening because they dont want to wait to move on. So I say we hold out for a 1st round pick minimum. If no team will give value, let him walk and make him wait until 2025.
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Old 09-14-2022, 12:50 PM   #42
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Re: Observations from games impacting Saints

Originally Posted by BakoSaint View Post
Your wording is a little confusing, Megatron and Lucks contracts don't toll, for coaches its more like 'there is no such thing as tolling or not, they expire when they expire.' Ok so we have two more offseasons to trade him. No team is likely to just wait it out if they have an opening because they dont want to wait to move on. So I say we hold out for a 1st round pick minimum. If no team will give value, let him walk and make him wait until 2025.
Sorry if I didn't make it clear. But I agree. Unless we get something premium in return then make the other teams wait. Why give opposing teams the chance to get better at our expense? Especially a team within our own conference.
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Old 09-14-2022, 01:13 PM   #43
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Re: Observations from games impacting Saints

My view is this. Let’s say Payton wants to go to team “X” and team X wants him. That means the team expects to have a bad year…otherwise why would you be thinking about a new coach? (Unless you have the unusual situation of being good and looking to get over the hump…..like Philly…not that I think they want Payton).

If team X is expecting a poor year and hoping to get Payton in the off-season and Payton wants to go there, but X is only willing to give up a second or a third, then waiting one more year with the same coach you have isn’t a big issue.

In other words, asking why we should help another team out by letting them sign Payton assumes we are in position to keep them from getting Payton forever. It’s 2 off seasons; then it changes and some team will get him anyway. Why someone would rather take nothing for Payton than something is beyond me. We can’t block him forever like a player.

Again, that’s just me. I wouldn’t take ANY offer and I would surely not want him in the NFC south…but we can only stop that from happening for 2 years.

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Old 09-14-2022, 03:07 PM   #44
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Re: Observations from games impacting Saints

Originally Posted by Boston Saint View Post
My view is this. Let’s say Payton wants to go to team “X” and team X wants him. That means the team expects to have a bad year…otherwise why would you be thinking about a new coach? (Unless you have the unusual situation of being good and looking to get over the hump…..like Philly…not that I think they want Payton).

If team X is expecting a poor year and hoping to get Payton in the off-season and Payton wants to go there, but X is only willing to give up a second or a third, then waiting one more year with the same coach you have isn’t a big issue.

In other words, asking why we should help another team out by letting them sign Payton assumes we are in position to keep them from getting Payton forever. It’s 2 off seasons; then it changes and some team will get him anyway. Why someone would rather take nothing for Payton than something is beyond me. We can’t block him forever like a player.

Again, that’s just me. I wouldn’t take ANY offer and I would surely not want him in the NFC south…but we can only stop that from happening for 2 years.
I disagree. Lets just make up a hypothetical scenario.

Say that Dallas and Denver both want Payton but Payton prefers Dallas so he says he will only play for Dallas. Dallas lowballs and offers us a 2nd round pick in return for our 3rd and 5th Round picks and Payton. Your view might say we should take it because thats better than nothing, they just stick with McCarthy through the 2023 and 2024 seasons and get Payton for free in 2025.

My view is that we are more likely to win if we say No. Many good things can happen if we say no, versus losing a marginal draft pick value. A team like Dallas could realize a season with a lame duck coach costs them many million in sales of $100 pizzas and sponsorships and wasted player salaries. They could also fear their existing coach squeaks into the playoffs and they have to keep him. They could fear that after they are rejected, Payton listens to a pitch and decides Denver is good and they pony up the draft picks. Or they could fear that Payton lands a broadcasting gig again in the year off and improves his delivery and decides to stick with it, or that a more tempting job comes up for him next year, maybe Andy Reid retires mid season due to health issues, the OC takes over and struggles, and the Chiefs offer Payton the keys to the castle. So if we turn them down, Dallas might come back and offer a first round pick because waiting 2 years is super risky. Also, Payton really could look at Denver if we can't come to terms with Dallas, even if he says he won't. And the following year, who knows what would be available. Maybe Dallas still wants Payton but Dak has another nagging injury and the Chargers job is open with Hebert. Maybe Parsons signs a $500 million extension and then robs a liquor store with a ghost gun.

Any team that wants Payton will not want to wait 2 years to get him. If they need a new coach, its worth a lot to get that new coach sooner than later and guarantee actually getting him. If they offer less, its because they think we will be the ones afraid and back down, even if they have more to lose.
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Old 09-14-2022, 03:14 PM   #45
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Re: Observations from games impacting Saints

Originally Posted by BakoSaint View Post
I disagree. Lets just make up a hypothetical scenario.

Say that Dallas and Denver both want Payton but Payton prefers Dallas so he says he will only play for Dallas. Dallas lowballs and offers us a 2nd round pick in return for our 3rd and 5th Round picks and Payton. Your view might say we should take it because thats better than nothing, they just stick with McCarthy through the 2023 and 2024 seasons and get Payton for free in 2025.

My view is that we are more likely to win if we say No. Many good things can happen if we say no, versus losing a marginal draft pick value. A team like Dallas could realize a season with a lame duck coach costs them many million in sales of $100 pizzas and sponsorships and wasted player salaries. They could also fear their existing coach squeaks into the playoffs and they have to keep him. They could fear that after they are rejected, Payton listens to a pitch and decides Denver is good and they pony up the draft picks. Or they could fear that Payton lands a broadcasting gig again in the year off and improves his delivery and decides to stick with it, or that a more tempting job comes up for him next year, maybe Andy Reid retires mid season due to health issues, the OC takes over and struggles, and the Chiefs offer Payton the keys to the castle. So if we turn them down, Dallas might come back and offer a first round pick because waiting 2 years is super risky. Also, Payton really could look at Denver if we can't come to terms with Dallas, even if he says he won't. And the following year, who knows what would be available. Maybe Dallas still wants Payton but Dak has another nagging injury and the Chargers job is open with Hebert. Maybe Parsons signs a $500 million extension and then robs a liquor store with a ghost gun.

Any team that wants Payton will not want to wait 2 years to get him. If they need a new coach, its worth a lot to get that new coach sooner than later and guarantee actually getting him. If they offer less, its because they think we will be the ones afraid and back down, even if they have more to lose.
Fair enough. It’s a matter of how you negotiate. As you point out, there are many variables. We both are guessing on what a club is willing to do if they want him. But the main variable you miss to me is Sean’s willingness to go wherever the Saints want to trade him. They could do as you say and hold for best offer and Sean says “no”. If he makes it clear he will only go to a couple of teams, then the Saints have no leverage.

Believe me, I hope you are right and they get a ton for him. We shall see.

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Old 09-14-2022, 06:03 PM   #46
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Re: Observations from games impacting Saints

Originally Posted by Boston Saint View Post
Fair enough. It’s a matter of how you negotiate. As you point out, there are many variables. We both are guessing on what a club is willing to do if they want him. But the main variable you miss to me is Sean’s willingness to go wherever the Saints want to trade him. They could do as you say and hold for best offer and Sean says “no”. If he makes it clear he will only go to a couple of teams, then the Saints have no leverage.

Believe me, I hope you are right and they get a ton for him. We shall see.
The one piece of leverage we have on Payton is his ability to collect salary in 2023 and 2024 at likely $ 10 million or more per year from a new team. If he can't get the team he wants to give us fair compensation, he risks not getting paid.
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Old 09-14-2022, 06:10 PM   #47
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Re: Observations from games impacting Saints

Originally Posted by BakoSaint View Post
The one piece of leverage we have on Payton is his ability to collect salary in 2023 and 2024 at likely $ 10 million or more per year from a new team. If he can't get the team he wants to give us fair compensation, he risks not getting paid.
Something to keep in mind is that Sean Payton is already receiving $10 million per year from his TV contract. He's going to make that money anyway if he doesn't turn back to coaching now. If he quits TV he loses that.
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