Head Coach Material
 

Dennis Allen - he ain't it.



See my blog on this topic at https://blackandgold.com/blogs/neuge...-material.html

Re: Head Coach Material
 

Nope

Re: Head Coach Material
 

I know this is going to sound like I’m in Allen’s corner to be the head coach and I’m really not. I’d just like to interject a thought. Do you really think he’s been given a fair chance at an objective evaluation so far this year? Hear me out…

I remember Payton struggling along with multiple 7-9 seasons when he had Brees IN HIS PRIME because he was too…blind…to realize he needed a team that could at least force one or two punts a game. I remember Payton trying dumb reverses or flea flickers at ridiculously silly moments in games that cost the team wins. I remember him drafting players like Baptiste and I remember him NEVER developing anything even close to a successful back up QB or have a plan post Brees.

Now Allen needs to unexpectedly step in for a coach (who surprisingly retires) that had a 9-8 record. Due to financial reasons the D (which had carried the team the year before) needs to lose their two starting safties and an excellent corner. They also lose a cornerstone on their Oline in Armstead.

Allen starts the year with no established QB and needs to sort through a rehabbing Winston, a washed up Dalton or an unprepared/injury prone Hill for a starter (with only 3 preseason games to find him). Then, more injuries pop up. Some unsurprising like Davenport and Thomas. Some unexpected like Penning and Lattimore. But when you really consider the sheer number of players who have missed time and they guys who have had to play in their stead it’s sort of staggering to me.

There has been practically no Landry and no Thomas at WR. At least one game was played without Olave as well. Trautman was even hurt. Who the hell has there been to throw to? Kevin White and Juwan Johnson and Smith? Payton couldn’t win with those guys, why should Allen be able to.

Lattimore’s injury has been huge. That’s left the rookie Taylor as the best DB on the whole team. Last game against the Ravens we had Kaden friggin Ellis out there trying to tackle Lamar Jackson because Werner went down. That’s not on Allen.

Look at the RBs. It’s not on Allen that both Ingram and Kamara had big fumbles early in the season that clearly cost games. Both Tampa and Carolina are Ws if those Vets hold on to the ball. Allen shouldn’t need to tell those two players to hold on to the damn ball.

Again, I’m not saying Allen should stay. I’m only saying that he was put in a tough spot and I personally do not believe he can fairly be evaluated as the head coach of the Saints based upon what he has had to work with so far:

Starting QB…injured
2 Best WRs…injured
Top 2 RB…injured
Best CB…injured
“Best” TE…injured

That’s just off the top of my head. I doubt any coach including Payton would be doing much better with the hand Allen’s been dealt. He’s being made the scapegoat. But I guess when you are the HC that comes with the territory. I just don’t think fans are looking at things objectively.

Re: Head Coach Material
 

Most fans rarely look at things objectively.

By the way, good points all.

:chug:

Re: Head Coach Material
 

At this point I would prefer Interim Head Coach Max Unger to Allen. There are many better options, but few worse than Allen.

Injuries are a feature not a bug of how Mickey Loomis built this roster. Early in his tenure the Saints got lucky with two players coming off big injuries: Drew Brees and Deuce McAllister. Ever since that the lesson Loomis had ingrained is to double down over and over on injury history and love optimistic doctors who say its nothing. Loomis knew Winston was coming off a major injury, Landry was aging and injured at the end of last year, Thomas was injured 2 years and still not right. But he doubled down and signed two safeties who were older with more injury and suspension history and got rid of two younger ones. He chose Ingram as a RB backup for the senior tour instead of drafting a RB in the mid rounds. He traded our first pick to Philly because he was so sure we would be healthy this year because in his delicate kind heart he truly believes every injured player is going to be the next Brees or McAllister.

I would like to get rid of both Allen and Loomis. But to say this is not mostly Allens fault is true. It is more Loomis’ fault. If I could only get rid of one, it would be Loomis.

Re: Head Coach Material
 

The injuries are Loomis’s fault…OK.

Re: Head Coach Material
 

And, of course, don't forget that global warming is a direct result of Loomis' decision making.

:crazy:

Re: Head Coach Material
 

It's beyond ridiculous what I read some days.

Re: Head Coach Material
 

Well, they were 9-8 while breaking the NFL record for most games missed by injuries and signing guys of the street on Thursday to start on Sunday.

Re: Head Coach Material
 

the record reflex everthing, either you win or lose on sunday. if we didn't have depth, not on the fans. payton pulled things together year in and year out. you can say the qb. situation is what's missing, can make any excuse about any position but allen was left pretty good and has yet to show he's capable of doing anything at all. it's not my fault or your fault, he was given the keys to the kinddom and everyone knows it say what you want. he$$ even as a dc payton give him players, coaches and even a mentor( co whatever the title was) to build his pretty little resume', never before had payton tried to give any other dc the amount of tools needed to succeed but he did for allen. allen should be fired, he's in way above his head and is not going to get any better.

Re: Head Coach Material
 

Payton did not pull things together year in and out. He had three 7-9 seasons in a row and 4 seasons out of 5 at one point. This was with prime Brees.

How was Allen left pretty good with the WRs/TE/DBs/QB situation that injuries have forced him to play with this year? Be real.

Re: Head Coach Material
 

allen had wr's and was stacked at db.'s, we haven't had a good te well before allen so i consider that a wash, the qb. i'll bite on, he also was left with a really good d, it's his fault he let go the db's and that is being real.allens a joke as a hc, a joke we're stuck with it seems.

Re: Head Coach Material
 

Kevin White, trequan smith and Callaway are good WRs huh? and it’s Allen’s fault that they couldn’t afford CGJ and the safeties they lost in the off-season? Again, respect your opinion but you aren’t looking at things Objectively. This is the same team that the great Sean Payton was 9-8 with last year except we are worse off BY FAR at the safety spot and now at LB with Werner out. That’s a fact. It’s not Allen’s fault the economics dictated he lose the players he did.

Re: Head Coach Material
 

Not the injuries holistically, but the general age of the team is a problem. We have the second oldest team in the league, second only to Tampa (whose age situation is skewed by 45 year old Brady). That generally means more injuries, plus we have a high percentage of players who have reached their ceiling and the room for drastic improvement with a youth movement (like you are seeing with the Eagles and Giants) just isn't there.

And to be fair, half of the problem of CSP being gone is the removal of his offensive mind. To me the loss to the Ravens was mostly on Carmichael ... Taysom with very limited snaps/touches and rarely every using Kamara on outside runs (not even off tackle runs) continues to infuriate me. Easier to defend Kamara when you know it's an A or B gap run all day.

Re: Head Coach Material
 

Fair enough. But there’s only so much Allen can do to make the team younger in one offseason. And again, I’m not touting him or his performance. I’m just saying judging him by what he’s had to work with is not an honest evaluation. Again, Sean Payton was 9-8 with this same basic team except he had better safties and a better oline.

Re: Head Coach Material
 

Systematically the injuries and the inability to overcome them are Loomis' fault. He built an old team. He traded away a large number of various early and middle round draft picks for a few very high draft picks meaning fewer young players on the roster. We could afford CGJ, he was under contract on a cheap rookie deal, but we failed to call him bluff when he did a hold in. There is no real difference between showing up and refusing to talk to the coaches or just holding out at home and plenty of players have held out at home and the team calls their bluff and they come back and play. Then if he left in free agency next year we get a 3rd round comp pick or we tag him and force a team to trade a 2nd for him if he is getting better offers. In part CGJ is gone because we gave the big money to the Molasses Badger. That was Loomis making us older and more injury prone. And what about giving Taysom Hill in his 30's $10 million a year to be our wildcat backup running back despite a long injury history including injuries every year in college. And then also nobody put a gun to Loomis' head and said you have to sign the oldest active running back to ever be a Saint back to our team, rather than investing say a 4th round pick in a young guy.

One important factor is that the way Loomis manages the salary cap causes us to have more injury prone players. When other teams see a player getting hurt too much like OBJ, Victor Cruz, etc they cut or trade them. But Loomis manages our cap at 150% capacity and backloads all his contracts at 300% capacity and depends on annual restructuring of every big contract to make up the annual $70 million cap deficit. So when we have an OBJ or Victor Cruz or RG3 we don't cut or trade them, we hand the doctor a note with their lines "he is expected to make a complete recovery despite the latest setback" and we sign the injured player to an extension so we can prorate their salary to 2030.

Also sometimes when other teams have an injury to a star its a positive. Remember Drew Bledsoe and Tom Brady. Tom Brady was a mid round pick, that thing Loomis loves to throw away like he is Pacman Jones in a vegas strip club and the picks are small bills. But other teams are loaded with second and third stringers who were mid round picks, so sometimes when a star is injured, they find the backup is better. Our backups are undrafted free agents and has beens, so we find that out a lot less.

We are old and brittle and scarred and its a roster management issue. It's Loomis' fault more than Allen's. Payton could have done better without Loomis too. If Loomis had made sure the doctors did due diligence before signing Nick Fairly, we might have two Superbowls in 2017 and 2018, we were quite possibly one player away. During the 7-9 years a lot of high injury risk players like Browner and Breaux contributed to the losses, we basically had two cripples at corner. But for Dennis Allen he was .222 with the Raiders so that kind of kills the benefit of the doubt for me. I think our 2022 roster is actually better than 2021 because at least we have one good receiver which I think is a lot better than none, and we have passable QBs, even if neither is more than passable. Payton won 9 games relying on the likes of Semien to White in the passing game after Winston went down. Allen at least has the receivers to get the offense to move. But Allen is not a leader, he is a guy who was wounded by the trauma of attempting to be a leader, who was given his job by a guy who assembles wounded and fragile people together on a team for a living and then restructures their contracts a lot to get called a cap wizard.

Re: Head Coach Material
 

I understand your point but comparing what Dennis Allen has done to Sean Payton's last year is not apples to apples.

Sean Payton was 9-8 and not with a "better oline".
That "better oline" had the starting five playing a total of 22 snaps together last season. The team set the NFL record for fielding the most starters in a single season and lost their starting quarterback in Week 8 to an injury.

No Wil Lutz might’ve been the biggest blow of all. The trio of Johnson, Aldrick Rosas, and Cody Parkey missed a combined three field goals and five extra points. The Saints lost back-to-back games to the Falcons and Titans, both narrow two-point victories.

They’re not the first team to traverse the pitfalls of replacing a longtime franchise quarterback but they may be the first to start four quarterbacks (after losing their starter in Week 8) behind an injury-riddled offensive line missing both starting tackles and left guard.

For perspective, the Denver Broncos went 6-10 following Elway’s retirement in 1999 and didn’t win another playoff game until 2005. Steve Young retired unexpectedly following a concussion in 1999; the 49ers went 6-10 in 2000 and struggled for years until Jim Harbaugh arrived. Troy Aikman had a great supporting cast and retired on top in 2000. Dallas went 5-11 the next year and floundered until Tony Romo. After going 6-10 following Jim Kelly’s retirement in 1996, the Buffalo Bills had a 17-year postseason drought until Josh Allen showed up in 2018.

Re: Head Coach Material
 

These comparisons can never be apples to apples because of roster changes. Sure There were a lot of injuries last year, but having Armstead at all last year and not having Penning at all this year the overall talent dropped. At worst guys like Throckmorton are playing just like last year, so it’s a wash.

Likewise Lutz has missed more kicks than usual this year, so his “return” has been a wash. Blake’s punting hasn’t been as good as last year either, so overall Allen has had less to work with overall at special teams too.

Your point/examples about franchise QBs not being easily replaced is interesting, but not surprising (Although in your example young replaced a franchise guy in Montana). But I can give examples that do go that way…Favre to Rogers; Manning to Luck; Bledsoe to Brady. Either way, when a franchise suffers after a long period of winning like in the examples you mention it doesn’t mean it’s because of the coach. More likely it’s a mix of roster moves based on financial decisions and years of having draft picks in the later half of the draft that lead to a talent deficient team. Especially when the injury bug hits a team.

Which brings me back to my point. I believe it would be more accurate to asses Allen’s ability as head coach had he been able to field a team with Landry, Thomas, Penning, Lattimore etc. to see what he could do. I realize this is not possible. But the performance against the Raiders two weeks ago was better than anything I remember (off the top of my head) seeing Payton put out his last season coaching the Saints. That leads me to think Allen is at least capable of fielding a good team.

To me it’s like saying your driver sucks for not winning the Indy 500 when his car isn’t allowed to have pit stops.

Re: Head Coach Material
 

Come on. They had a guy start on the O-line on Sunday who was signed off the street on Thursday - even Payton said in an interview that he didn't even know the guy's name.

The injuries and games missed due to the pandemic related stuff were unreal last season, and still they were close to getting into the playoffs - some of the credit for that has to be on coaching/scheming, and especially on SP.

Re: Head Coach Material
 

You guys are either missing or avoiding the point I’m trying to make. I wasn’t trying to do an individual comparison of injuries under Payton versus injuries under Allen. Yes, Payton had the Miami game to deal with. That skewed things greatly. But Allen has had close to the same situation and started with a fundamentally less talented team without Marcus Williams, Johnson, Armstead, and Jenkins.

Are you denying that injuries have hit Allen’s team pretty seriously this year? Has he NOT played games without his top QB, Top 3 WRs, Top RBs, Top CBs, and DLs? Seems I remember comments about how long his injury list was not too long ago. It’s tough to coach and win in the NFL when you have a full roster much less a banged up one. Allen has had a mostly banged up one. That is the point I’m making. If you disagree and think injuries and the talent you are able to put on the field don’t matter then fine. I disagree. Having healthy players makes a difference and Allen hasn’t had much of that. Payton would be struggling with this team and it’s injuries the same way he struggled with last year’s team the same way Allen is struggling with it. Could be why he decided to jump ship.

Re: Head Coach Material
 

I'm willing to give DA another year. After all, with the limited draft picks coming up, a new coach wouldn't have much to rebuild a team. I do think we have to find a different QB.

Re: Head Coach Material
 

While the debate is interesting, one fact is still missing ... the remainder of the season. Nobody, even the Wizard, knows for sure how the rest of the season will pan out. Until then any comparison of Payton's final season to the first half of Allen's is absolutely apples to oranges.

Re: Head Coach Material
 

We are only one pick short of the usual seven.

2023
Round 2
Round 3
Round 4
Round 5
Round 5 (via Philadelphia)
Round 7

Re: Head Coach Material
 

We are also short in the 2024 draft and we have a wizard who is likely to make many of our picks disappear to make one pick a little earlier for some non-qb gamble.

Re: Head Coach Material
 

:rofl:Michael Thomas!!!! LMAO

Re: Head Coach Material
 

Kinda outta nowhere in a thread about head coaches, but good to know he lives in your head rent free.

Re: Head Coach Material
 

Although not a guarantee... it is likely a Sean Payton trade happens in the offseason, netting us at least one first round pick.

Re: Head Coach Material
 

No doubt Thomas has a sprawling 40 acres estate in :dunce:'s head. :D

Re: Head Coach Material
 

What?!?!?! No "11-6" declaration from The Almighty, The Great, The All-Knowing, Eternal Optimistic, himself???

Re: Head Coach Material
 

I don't know. I'm with Oak on this. Why would Payton want to go anywhere that has traded at least their 2023 #1 pick away, and probably more? It wouldn't be the money. He's already getting $10 million a year with the TV gig. He could wait it out go anywhere.

Re: Head Coach Material
 

LOL! As a matter of fact, as my son and I were leaving the Dome Monday night I told him, "We should still have the division wrapped up at 11-6."

:bng:

Re: Head Coach Material
 

I so hope you are right. I just have the sinking feeling it’s not gonna happen.

Re: Head Coach Material
 

Really... look like the colts selected a has been player with no coaching expereince...
doubt the prima donna's injured toe would allow him to coach anyway....:rofl:
He'd actually have to do something... maybe not, with same outcome

Re: Head Coach Material
 

Actually i live on 80+ acres with a cow laughing at you:dunce:

Re: Head Coach Material
 

If we go 11-6 and win a playoff game this season I'll personally make a trip to Louisiana and open up a bar tab for Guido and a bunch of you guys because we will have a lot to celebrate.

Re: Head Coach Material
 

Missing or avoiding the point?

My response was to your claim that Payton had a better Oline. I added what I thought were some interesting facts about some of the talent he was missing. Never questioned Allen's ability. Every head coach has some input into his teams "talent" level.
No pun intended but each coach has to play the hand they are dealt. Simple as that.

Re: Head Coach Material
 

Is it necessary to bring in a political talking point?

Re: Head Coach Material
 

Team wise - I think it is equally important to look at not only overall talent, but what have you, as the leader, done with the talent you have. Also, what are the expectations of the hand you are dealt and have pushed the talent to perform to those expectations? The lack of rallying his team, relying on and rallying the veterans to provide the synergy, in a nutshell, leadership falls squarely on DA's shoulders. As a leader you automatically receive the credit, but that also means you receive the criticism.

Evaluation of talent - Winston, talent wise upper mid pack, decision making lower pack as far as QB's go. Referring to Dalton as washed up, I do think he has proven otherwise. All of your injury points are also injuries that Dalton has had to deal with as a starter.

Overall observations are;

Special teams has been mediocre. Penalties(lack of discipline) and turnovers (fumbles) anomaly for this team. Part on the individual, part on the coaching staff.

No synergy of the who's who of talent on D. The D on paper should be living up to the pre-season hope and hype. It appears that we haven't been able to pressure as much as in past seasons, some due to injury, yes. While I am not a CJG fan, because of the chaos he brings, he seemed to have energy around him. How much more are you able to coach professionals on fundamentals? I have no idea, but tackling has been ridiculously bad. I do feel relying on your veteran field generals and the ability to get the team motivated is on the coaching staff.

Every armchair coach has their subjective opinion. Mine is, we don't utilize what offensive talent we have to create a spark. This is on the coaching staff.

Dalton is stable, can work the checkdown and the short pass game. But this will only carry you so far with one RB. Unfortunately for Taysom and his Swiss Army Knife duty he needs to be utilized more, injury aside. Kamara continually running off tackle becomes too predictable. Taysom can loosen the opposing D-line, since he runs the majority of the time he is on the field. He does offer another weapon for a D to focus on. Loosening up things for Dalton. There has been a glimmer with Shaheed, limited by usage.

I wouldn't say DA needs to go during his first year. It is frustrating to watch from the sofa at times, because there is an appearance of a lack of cohesion, a lack of spark, a lack of unification. If teams display any of those things and they are out matched in talent, so be it.

Injuries have been an issue, no doubt. But as a whole we appear to just go through the motions without luster and an effective group of leaders can most certainly motivate.

Jury is out, but I don't see DA's leadership skills improving even sans injuries.

Re: Head Coach Material
 

No doubt you have good points. Again, I’m not saying I’m an Allen fan. Just pointing out he’s not been able to even play the hand he’s been dealt with all the injuries.

I find it interesting though that it seems these have been plays to be made on the offensive side of the ball at times that are not being made. I watch videos from a guy named “daboot tragedies” a lot and he gives good breakdowns with views of all 22 players. Here is an example:


Often there are open receivers that Dalton (Winston too) aren’t seeing or throwing to.

Re: Head Coach Material
 

When a play is executed the progressions the QB goes through are linear. They go from first designed option, to the next, then the next, then the next, etc. I have heard and read many times that the "open receiver" may actually be later in the progression and not even seen by the time the ball needs to get out. That may be the issue.