Saints gains and loses

WhoDat · 03-27-2003, 11:23 AM

Hey man, it\'s not like I\'m not excited about the draft. I am. The prospect of picking up Trufant, Bailey, and Doss really excites me. But throw those guys in the lineup and you\'re talking about

Mitchell - 2nd year, first year as a starter with any significant playing time
Doss - rookie
Carter - 9th game as a Saint, we still don\'t know if he can stay off the hooch or if he\'ll pan out on the field
Trufant - I\'m not sure he\'ll start, but he\'ll be part of a secondary that also has Craver, who is in his second year and didn\'t get a lot of PT last year due to injury.
Ruff - first year with the Saints, he didn\'t play much last year and who knows what he can do.
Allen and Hodge are both young without a ton of PT. Throw Bailey into that mix and you have another rookie starter.
Grant - he played very well last year, but he\'s still only a second year guy don\'t forget.
Add a new DT, to replace Hand I\'m guessing, and you\'ve got a whole lot of new faces and YOUTH on D. Inexperience and little playing time as a group. That\'s a hit or miss recipe for this year. Certainly in years to come this group could be great. But looking ahead to this season... all I see are ?????????????

WhoDat · 03-27-2003, 12:44 PM

No, I don\'t want the defensive team that we had on the field last year anywhere near the field this year. But I also don\'t want 11 rookies and first time starters running around out there either. You have polarized this argument to a ridiculous level - Option A - last year\'s defense. Option B - mortgage the future to put ten Takeo Spikes out there, or option C - build through the draft (which is not surprisingly the idea that you support). It\'s obvious which is best when you polarize the argument like that.

I love what we can do in the draft. I\'m just saying that I would have liked to see them use some of their money and/or draft picks to sign or trade for a couple of young EXPERIENCED players. I would like to see them do that before free agency ends. For example - I\'m not sure if the Woodson rumor was BS or what, but if not, why wouldn\'t you take that? Why not try to sign a guy like Keith Brooking? I like that they\'re going after Tebucky Jones... and I like that they\'re holding out for a third rounder on him - a second is too much.

I don\'t know if you guys believe that I\'m all for throwing picks and money away for any player with a big name or what. I\'m for improving our overall talent level through smart high value moves. I hate to harp on it, but the Claiborne deal remains a perfect example. Claiborne is a better value at three mill a year than Ruff is at two and a half. I\'m concerned that they will not have the right combination of TALENT and EXPERIENCE on defense THIS YEAR. I realize that they should be good for the next three or so years with the talent they\'ve got. After that, we could start hemmoraging players and it could all go down the tubes. The question is - can we take a shot at a title before then. I think we have that chance as early as this year if we can just add some talent AND experience to the defense.

BlackandBlue · 03-27-2003, 01:08 PM

however noone knew how hot the situation with Turley. I believe the saints was more concern in offering the big money to players already on the team(Turley) and when that sour made the choice to keep the offense intact with signing Gandy.

Just wanted to point out that they knew they were not going to resign Turley this past December, this was not something that was breaking news this past spring.

rodjmaw · 03-27-2003, 03:38 PM

BB, if they knew that they couldn\'t sign Turley why try to negotate a contract in February

Whodat wasn\'t brooking Franchised, if so why give up two 1st rd to Atl. Mark Simoneau played MLB for ATL and it didn\'t work out (too small for MLB), Nate Webster same story. Bernado Harris, really invest in a player that will be 32 and skills are declining. Kirkland, we already have problems w/DT controlling their weight. Do u really want to take a gamble a MLB? Shelton Quarles, he fit for Tampa\'s defense cuz the LB are only strong safties but if you haven\'t notice u can run all day on tampa\'s defense. He is a good lb but not for the saints defense

Have a nice day ???? fans. Just kidding,

billyh1026 · 03-27-2003, 05:17 PM

WhoDat, your Logic on Jones makes no sense given the view you have on the Ruff/Claiborne half-million difference. If he\'ll imporove our D so much then why not part with a 2 for him?? Why hold out for a 3? Stop *****-footing around and pull the trigger. It\'s only a 30-some-odd-player difference in a draft of inexperienced players. We need \"young EXPERIENCED players\" and he\'s the safety you want right? So why not get him NOW?

BlackandBlue · 03-27-2003, 05:28 PM

Rod, I thought contract negotiations with Turley ended in December. Now you have forced me to try and remember where I read that :P

Logic? Who said anything about logic? Logic would have landed us a 1st rounder for Turley, but it didn\'t. Jones hasn\'t played up to his potential. To me, that means he\'s got a dedication problem, which will only become a bigger problem in a city like New Orleans. Too many times players loose focus because of thier surroundings. I\'d rather take a chance on a safety in the 2nd (cause there are a few damn good safeties projected to go there) then trading it for a guy that may or may not bring his A game depending on if he feels like it.

Marvinb6 · 03-28-2003, 09:40 AM

So, we should \"be patient\" and wait to see what discarded players we can pick up out of other teams\' garbage bins? Doesn\'t that sound like the John Meacom days? Maybe we can trade Aaron Brooks to Houston for a crippled offensive lineman too ! What I am trying to point out is that a team that gave up 26 points pergame seems to have done very little to improve in that area. Ok, we\'ll give up 20 points per game instead this year. Sure we have lots of draft picks but, draft picks usually take years to reach their potential, by that time our\"explosive\" offense will have been picked apart by teams who ARE willing to spend money in free agency to better their team. With a glaring need at MLB we did nothing to improve that position. With a QB recovering from shoulder surgery we let our backup go to another team in our division. I have been a Saints fan since their inception and sometimes I feel like i\'m in that movie Groundhog Day where the same thing happens over and over again. I have earned the right to feel a little negative about off season developements. Including purposely trading Turley to the Rams, the team with a coach he said he could never play for. Sounds like something you do in highschool.We showed him didn\'t we!?!? Now he\'ll have to play for a team that has made 3 trips to the big game and he\'ll have to do it for what $5 million a year? 35 years of patience and 1 playoff victory.

WhoDat · 03-28-2003, 12:14 PM

Marvin - I couldn\'t agree with you more!! I understand the ideas behind building through the draft. I like them. I feel like we have built through the draft. We have a great offense and special teams that is going to be squandered if this defense doesn\'t improve fast.

Sure it\'s easy to sign the McAllisters, the Stallworths, Grants, Bentleys, etc. when their rookies. But what happens when their contract expires and they\'re all young stars? The way we spend our money there\'s no way. What happens when they all play up to and beyond expectations and want new contracts while they\'re still under contract - a la Aaron Brooks? Can we give them all the kind of money they want? No. Especially when you add another five picks this year! What happens if they al get upset and turn into problems b/c they\'re getting paid half of what they deserve?

With somewhere in the range of $25 to $30 million dollars available under the cap this year and five draft picks in the top three rounds the Saints could very easily have drastically improved their defense. The Rams did it a few years ago and went to the Super Bowl. We have that kind of a team. Great offense, terrible defense. We could do the same thing and go Bowling. Did the Rams have a bad season the year after they restocked? Yeah - last year. But that was due to INJURIES, not loos of players? Who did they lose? Warner, Faulk, Holt, Bruce, Conwell... ? Nope. Hakim, Proehl, and Dre Bly. Hakim was overrated and only played as well as he did b/c he had Holt and Bruce on his team - he showed that last year at Detroit. Proehl was their fourth receiver. Bly is a good corner, but not great. Overall, I\'d say their team is still pretty intact. That COULD BE US.

If we signed the type of impact players we need on D - we could have a shot at the super bowl. Would you guys give up Pathon, Jake Reed, and Dale Carter in the next two years to go to the Super Bowl this year? I sure as hell would.

subguy · 03-30-2003, 09:31 AM

Me too. But our history shows,we can\'t hold on to anyone. They sit a year or so,come out have one good year and we don\'t want to pay. So adios. The object is to win however that has to happen. Whoever said,\"It\'s not whether you win or lose, it\'s how you play the game.\" Was not a competitor. If winning doesn\'t matter, then why keep score?

billyh1026 · 03-30-2003, 05:51 PM

B&B, the safety position this year is so-so at best. You honestly think there\'s a safety we should pick with our 2 that\'s better than Jones?

WhoDat, answer the question please. Why should we keep putting on this dog and pony show when it comes to Jones? Why not give up the 2 for him? We need to either s#!t or get off the pot...which one is it?

btw, if I\'m not mistaken....the Rams won the SB with a mediocre defense. They lost it with one of the best in the other year. With the exception of Aeneas Williams they did it thru the draft. Of course, I could be wrong with all this to...tho

03-27-2003, 11:23 AM	#11
WhoDat 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 5,631	Saints gains and loses Hey man, it\'s not like I\'m not excited about the draft. I am. The prospect of picking up Trufant, Bailey, and Doss really excites me. But throw those guys in the lineup and you\'re talking about Mitchell - 2nd year, first year as a starter with any significant playing time Doss - rookie Carter - 9th game as a Saint, we still don\'t know if he can stay off the hooch or if he\'ll pan out on the field Trufant - I\'m not sure he\'ll start, but he\'ll be part of a secondary that also has Craver, who is in his second year and didn\'t get a lot of PT last year due to injury. Ruff - first year with the Saints, he didn\'t play much last year and who knows what he can do. Allen and Hodge are both young without a ton of PT. Throw Bailey into that mix and you have another rookie starter. Grant - he played very well last year, but he\'s still only a second year guy don\'t forget. Add a new DT, to replace Hand I\'m guessing, and you\'ve got a whole lot of new faces and YOUTH on D. Inexperience and little playing time as a group. That\'s a hit or miss recipe for this year. Certainly in years to come this group could be great. But looking ahead to this season... all I see are ?????????????
WhoDat 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 5,631	\"Excuses, excuses, excuses. ThatÃ¢Â€Â™s all anyone ever makes for the New Orleans SaintsÃ¢Â€Â™ organization.\" - Eric Narcisse \"Being a Saints fan is almost like being addicted to crack,\" he said.[i]\"You know you should stop, but you just can\'t.\"

03-27-2003, 12:44 PM	#12
WhoDat 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 5,631	Saints gains and loses No, I don\'t want the defensive team that we had on the field last year anywhere near the field this year. But I also don\'t want 11 rookies and first time starters running around out there either. You have polarized this argument to a ridiculous level - Option A - last year\'s defense. Option B - mortgage the future to put ten Takeo Spikes out there, or option C - build through the draft (which is not surprisingly the idea that you support). It\'s obvious which is best when you polarize the argument like that. I love what we can do in the draft. I\'m just saying that I would have liked to see them use some of their money and/or draft picks to sign or trade for a couple of young EXPERIENCED players. I would like to see them do that before free agency ends. For example - I\'m not sure if the Woodson rumor was BS or what, but if not, why wouldn\'t you take that? Why not try to sign a guy like Keith Brooking? I like that they\'re going after Tebucky Jones... and I like that they\'re holding out for a third rounder on him - a second is too much. I don\'t know if you guys believe that I\'m all for throwing picks and money away for any player with a big name or what. I\'m for improving our overall talent level through smart high value moves. I hate to harp on it, but the Claiborne deal remains a perfect example. Claiborne is a better value at three mill a year than Ruff is at two and a half. I\'m concerned that they will not have the right combination of TALENT and EXPERIENCE on defense THIS YEAR. I realize that they should be good for the next three or so years with the talent they\'ve got. After that, we could start hemmoraging players and it could all go down the tubes. The question is - can we take a shot at a title before then. I think we have that chance as early as this year if we can just add some talent AND experience to the defense.
WhoDat 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 5,631	\"Excuses, excuses, excuses. ThatÃ¢Â€Â™s all anyone ever makes for the New Orleans SaintsÃ¢Â€Â™ organization.\" - Eric Narcisse \"Being a Saints fan is almost like being addicted to crack,\" he said.[i]\"You know you should stop, but you just can\'t.\"

03-27-2003, 01:08 PM	#13
BlackandBlue Kinder, gentler Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: dirty south Posts: 3,889	Saints gains and loses however noone knew how hot the situation with Turley. I believe the saints was more concern in offering the big money to players already on the team(Turley) and when that sour made the choice to keep the offense intact with signing Gandy. Just wanted to point out that they knew they were not going to resign Turley this past December, this was not something that was breaking news this past spring.

03-27-2003, 03:38 PM	#14
rodjmaw 100th Post Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 138	Saints gains and loses BB, if they knew that they couldn\'t sign Turley why try to negotate a contract in February Whodat wasn\'t brooking Franchised, if so why give up two 1st rd to Atl. Mark Simoneau played MLB for ATL and it didn\'t work out (too small for MLB), Nate Webster same story. Bernado Harris, really invest in a player that will be 32 and skills are declining. Kirkland, we already have problems w/DT controlling their weight. Do u really want to take a gamble a MLB? Shelton Quarles, he fit for Tampa\'s defense cuz the LB are only strong safties but if you haven\'t notice u can run all day on tampa\'s defense. He is a good lb but not for the saints defense Have a nice day ???? fans. Just kidding,
rodjmaw 100th Post Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 138

03-27-2003, 05:17 PM	#15
billyh1026 100th Post Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 213	Saints gains and loses WhoDat, your Logic on Jones makes no sense given the view you have on the Ruff/Claiborne half-million difference. If he\'ll imporove our D so much then why not part with a 2 for him?? Why hold out for a 3? Stop *****-footing around and pull the trigger. It\'s only a 30-some-odd-player difference in a draft of inexperienced players. We need \"young EXPERIENCED players\" and he\'s the safety you want right? So why not get him NOW?
billyh1026 100th Post Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 213

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03-27-2003, 05:28 PM	#16
BlackandBlue Kinder, gentler Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: dirty south Posts: 3,889	Saints gains and loses Rod, I thought contract negotiations with Turley ended in December. Now you have forced me to try and remember where I read that :P Logic? Who said anything about logic? Logic would have landed us a 1st rounder for Turley, but it didn\'t. Jones hasn\'t played up to his potential. To me, that means he\'s got a dedication problem, which will only become a bigger problem in a city like New Orleans. Too many times players loose focus because of thier surroundings. I\'d rather take a chance on a safety in the 2nd (cause there are a few damn good safeties projected to go there) then trading it for a guy that may or may not bring his A game depending on if he feels like it.
	The waiting drove me mad.... I don't want to hear from those that know... Everything has changed, absolutely nothing's changed Eddie is a....draftnik?

03-28-2003, 09:40 AM	#17
Marvinb6 Rookie Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 29	Saints gains and loses So, we should \"be patient\" and wait to see what discarded players we can pick up out of other teams\' garbage bins? Doesn\'t that sound like the John Meacom days? Maybe we can trade Aaron Brooks to Houston for a crippled offensive lineman too ! What I am trying to point out is that a team that gave up 26 points pergame seems to have done very little to improve in that area. Ok, we\'ll give up 20 points per game instead this year. Sure we have lots of draft picks but, draft picks usually take years to reach their potential, by that time our\"explosive\" offense will have been picked apart by teams who ARE willing to spend money in free agency to better their team. With a glaring need at MLB we did nothing to improve that position. With a QB recovering from shoulder surgery we let our backup go to another team in our division. I have been a Saints fan since their inception and sometimes I feel like i\'m in that movie Groundhog Day where the same thing happens over and over again. I have earned the right to feel a little negative about off season developements. Including purposely trading Turley to the Rams, the team with a coach he said he could never play for. Sounds like something you do in highschool.We showed him didn\'t we!?!? Now he\'ll have to play for a team that has made 3 trips to the big game and he\'ll have to do it for what $5 million a year? 35 years of patience and 1 playoff victory.
Marvinb6 Rookie Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 29

03-28-2003, 12:14 PM	#18
WhoDat 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 5,631	Saints gains and loses Marvin - I couldn\'t agree with you more!! I understand the ideas behind building through the draft. I like them. I feel like we have built through the draft. We have a great offense and special teams that is going to be squandered if this defense doesn\'t improve fast. Sure it\'s easy to sign the McAllisters, the Stallworths, Grants, Bentleys, etc. when their rookies. But what happens when their contract expires and they\'re all young stars? The way we spend our money there\'s no way. What happens when they all play up to and beyond expectations and want new contracts while they\'re still under contract - a la Aaron Brooks? Can we give them all the kind of money they want? No. Especially when you add another five picks this year! What happens if they al get upset and turn into problems b/c they\'re getting paid half of what they deserve? With somewhere in the range of $25 to $30 million dollars available under the cap this year and five draft picks in the top three rounds the Saints could very easily have drastically improved their defense. The Rams did it a few years ago and went to the Super Bowl. We have that kind of a team. Great offense, terrible defense. We could do the same thing and go Bowling. Did the Rams have a bad season the year after they restocked? Yeah - last year. But that was due to INJURIES, not loos of players? Who did they lose? Warner, Faulk, Holt, Bruce, Conwell... ? Nope. Hakim, Proehl, and Dre Bly. Hakim was overrated and only played as well as he did b/c he had Holt and Bruce on his team - he showed that last year at Detroit. Proehl was their fourth receiver. Bly is a good corner, but not great. Overall, I\'d say their team is still pretty intact. That COULD BE US. If we signed the type of impact players we need on D - we could have a shot at the super bowl. Would you guys give up Pathon, Jake Reed, and Dale Carter in the next two years to go to the Super Bowl this year? I sure as hell would.
WhoDat 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 5,631	\"Excuses, excuses, excuses. ThatÃ¢Â€Â™s all anyone ever makes for the New Orleans SaintsÃ¢Â€Â™ organization.\" - Eric Narcisse \"Being a Saints fan is almost like being addicted to crack,\" he said.[i]\"You know you should stop, but you just can\'t.\"

03-30-2003, 09:31 AM	#19
subguy 1000 Posts + Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: FL Posts: 2,095	Saints gains and loses Me too. But our history shows,we can\'t hold on to anyone. They sit a year or so,come out have one good year and we don\'t want to pay. So adios. The object is to win however that has to happen. Whoever said,\"It\'s not whether you win or lose, it\'s how you play the game.\" Was not a competitor. If winning doesn\'t matter, then why keep score?

03-30-2003, 05:51 PM	#20
billyh1026 100th Post Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 213	Saints gains and loses B&B, the safety position this year is so-so at best. You honestly think there\'s a safety we should pick with our 2 that\'s better than Jones? WhoDat, answer the question please. Why should we keep putting on this dog and pony show when it comes to Jones? Why not give up the 2 for him? We need to either s#!t or get off the pot...which one is it? btw, if I\'m not mistaken....the Rams won the SB with a mediocre defense. They lost it with one of the best in the other year. With the exception of Aeneas Williams they did it thru the draft. Of course, I could be wrong with all this to...tho
billyh1026 100th Post Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 213	Dean Vernon Wormer: Mr. Hoover, president of Delta house? One point six; four C's and an F. A fine example you set! Daniel Simpson Day... HAS no grade point average. All courses incomplete. Mr. Blu - MR. BLUTARSKY... ZERO POINT ZERO. John 'Bluto' Blutarsky: Christ. Seven years of college down the drain. Might as well join the f@$%ing Peace Corps.