Why doesn’t Payton want to come back to the Saints?

Mr.Riaton · 01-18-2023, 07:41 AM

Originally Posted by TheOak

If given the choice of having 2006 Sean Payton back or 2006 Drew Brees back I am taking Drew all day. This is the reason I believe we attribute a lot of success to Sean that should actually be attributed to Drew.

Here is another litmus test. Which statement is more true?
Drew Brees, Hall of Fame Quarterback.

Sean Payton, Hall of Fame Coach.

Sean left because that is his way of running from the reality that he was a car on the Drew Brees train and not the other way around.

I agree with you on this for the most part but I do feel like drew wouldn’t have been what he was hadn’t it been for Sean. I’d bet that if we would’ve got Mahomes then we’d remain a top tier team with maybe another Super Bowl and possibly put Sean in hall of fame conversation

Mr.Riaton · 01-18-2023, 07:43 AM

Originally Posted by TheOak

Interesting thought... in 2017 a slightly different draft and we would be set.

Move up one in the first and Mahomes, pick Deshaun Watson instead of Lattimore...

Went back and looked at that draft again and man we nailed that draft. Despite that, I wish we could have drafted one of those qbs

TheOak · 01-18-2023, 07:55 AM

Originally Posted by Mr.Riaton

I agree with you on this for the most part but I do feel like drew wouldn’t have been what he was hadn’t it been for Sean. I’d bet that if we would’ve got Mahomes then we’d remain a top tier team with maybe another Super Bowl and possibly put Sean in hall of fame conversation

I understand your reservations, chicken vs egg is a dilemma isn't it..

Maybe this helps. One could easily argue that Brees and Mahomes are similar talents and either would be successful anywhere they go. Sean on the other hand has yet to show that he can do anything notable without Drew. Does Sean get credit for getting Drew into a Saints uniform? Undoubtedly. Is Sean responsible for Drews success, I cant give him that one and if we believe that Drew would be successful anywhere he went then that would include a New Orleans Saints without Sean Payton. All of my roads are still leading back to Drew Brees.

Mr.Riaton · 01-18-2023, 08:07 AM

Originally Posted by TheOak

I understand your reservations, chicken vs egg is a dilemma isn't it..

Maybe this helps. One could easily argue that Brees and Mahomes are similar talents and either would be successful anywhere they go. Sean on the other hand has yet to show that he can do anything notable without Drew. Does Sean get credit for getting Drew into a Saints uniform? Undoubtedly. Is Sean responsible for Drews success, I cant give him that one and if we believe that Drew would be successful anywhere he went then that would include a New Orleans Saints without Sean Payton. All of my roads are still leading back to Drew Brees.

Good points. Who would you say is a great coach without a good qb in todays NFL?

TheOak · 01-18-2023, 08:58 AM

Originally Posted by Mr.Riaton

Good points. Who would you say is a great coach without a good qb in todays NFL?

I may define great coach differently than others and was about to just say that I thought Sean Payton was a great coach but as I think about my criteria I am having second thoughts. Sean Payton was a successful coach as evident by his record, and a Ring. A great coach surrounds himself with a talented coaching staff, instills discipline in his team and expects it from the coaches he manages. A great coach is a great strategist, great judge of talent, knows how to utalize the talent on his roster, and has succession plans in place for attrition. A great coach is the backbone of the organization.

When I consider what went on under his nose, he is kind of a leadership sh1tshow.. Bounty Gate, Vicodin , the pitiful array of position coaches we have, essentially having a roster full of QBs but no QB, and quite a few other examples; I can not give Sean that title. Successful yes, great... not so much.

In his year of suspension he told the team "Do your job" but he didn't really walk that walk while the Saints HC.

Like him or not, Belichick is a good example of a great coach regardless of record, McVay is very good as well,

Mr.Riaton · 01-18-2023, 09:56 AM

Originally Posted by TheOak

I may define great coach differently than others and was about to just say that I thought Sean Payton was a great coach but as I think about my criteria I am having second thoughts. Sean Payton was a successful coach as evident by his record, and a Ring. A great coach surrounds himself with a talented coaching staff, instills discipline in his team and expects it from the coaches he manages. A great coach is a great strategist, great judge of talent, knows how to utalize the talent on his roster, and has succession plans in place for attrition. A great coach is the backbone of the organization.

When I consider what went on under his nose, he is kind of a leadership sh1tshow.. Bounty Gate, Vicodin , the pitiful array of position coaches we have, essentially having a roster full of QBs but no QB, and quite a few other examples; I can not give Sean that title. Successful yes, great... not so much.

In his year of suspension he told the team "Do your job" but he didn't really walk that walk while the Saints HC.

Like him or not, Belichick is a good example of a great coach regardless of record, McVay is very good as well,

Gotcha. I was under the impression from your original statement that Payton wasn’t a great coach because he had no quality qb to make him successful, but your points in your elaboration are valid. I still think he’s a great coach despite that. I actually agree that Belichick is a great coach as well despite the record. It shows that even the best in todays NFL struggle without great qb play. Although I will say that a top notch defense can go a good ways as well

Rugby Saint II · 01-18-2023, 12:37 PM

There is something to be said for Drew Brees being replaced by Philip Rivers after his first contract. He did not become Drew Brees as we know him until Sean Payton molded him. I have read Sean Payton's book "Home Team" and it is very insightful. I'm pretty sure Drew Brees acknowledges that Sean took him to the next level. That is a very important factor when deciding on a head coach.

Let's look at this from several different angles. Sean Payton took the Saints from a laughing stock franchise to a perennial winner. He evaluated the staff from the cafeteria workers to front office personnel and clearly put his thumbprint on the future of the franchise coming in. He has led us through hurricanes, covid, devastating injuries, and has fought hand to hand with Roger Goodell.

He gave us everything he had and even went through a divorce while he was here. It was time for a change and I'm not upset that he left in the least. I don't blame him for the position the Saints are in now. That finger should be pointed elsewhere.

SmashMouth · 01-18-2023, 02:50 PM

Originally Posted by TheOak

I may define great coach differently than others and was about to just say that I thought Sean Payton was a great coach but as I think about my criteria I am having second thoughts. Sean Payton was a successful coach as evident by his record, and a Ring. A great coach surrounds himself with a talented coaching staff, instills discipline in his team and expects it from the coaches he manages. A great coach is a great strategist, great judge of talent, knows how to utalize the talent on his roster, and has succession plans in place for attrition. A great coach is the backbone of the organization.

When I consider what went on under his nose, he is kind of a leadership sh1tshow.. Bounty Gate, Vicodin , the pitiful array of position coaches we have, essentially having a roster full of QBs but no QB, and quite a few other examples; I can not give Sean that title. Successful yes, great... not so much.

In his year of suspension he told the team "Do your job" but he didn't really walk that walk while the Saints HC.

Like him or not, Belichick is a good example of a great coach regardless of record, McVay is very good as well,

No argument here.

BB sill knows the rule book better than anyone. That little nugget sliver alone nets us TWO berths into SBs since those two miracle plays then don't exist.

AsylumGuido · 01-22-2023, 05:20 PM

Most likely not, but this does have some logic behind it.

SmashMouth and Rugby Saint II like this.

Rugby Saint II · 01-31-2023, 11:50 AM

I would welcome Sean Payton back with open arms. If he could lead us to another Super Bowl victory he would ensure his place in the Hall of Fame. Of course, if he took another team to the same place he took the Saints to, then he is a definite shoe in for the Hall of Fame.

01-18-2023, 07:41 AM	#21
Mr.Riaton 1000 Posts + Join Date: Mar 2013 Location: Broussard,La. Posts: 1,264	Re: Why doesn’t Payton want to come back to the Saints? Originally Posted by TheOak If given the choice of having 2006 Sean Payton back or 2006 Drew Brees back I am taking Drew all day. This is the reason I believe we attribute a lot of success to Sean that should actually be attributed to Drew. Here is another litmus test. Which statement is more true? Drew Brees, Hall of Fame Quarterback. Sean Payton, Hall of Fame Coach. Sean left because that is his way of running from the reality that he was a car on the Drew Brees train and not the other way around. I agree with you on this for the most part but I do feel like drew wouldn’t have been what he was hadn’t it been for Sean. I’d bet that if we would’ve got Mahomes then we’d remain a top tier team with maybe another Super Bowl and possibly put Sean in hall of fame conversation Rugby Saint II likes this.

01-18-2023, 07:43 AM	#22
Mr.Riaton 1000 Posts + Join Date: Mar 2013 Location: Broussard,La. Posts: 1,264	Re: Why doesn’t Payton want to come back to the Saints? Originally Posted by TheOak Interesting thought... in 2017 a slightly different draft and we would be set. Move up one in the first and Mahomes, pick Deshaun Watson instead of Lattimore... Went back and looked at that draft again and man we nailed that draft. Despite that, I wish we could have drafted one of those qbs Rugby Saint II likes this.

01-18-2023, 07:55 AM	#23
TheOak 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Cypress Tx. Posts: 19,026	Re: Why doesn’t Payton want to come back to the Saints? Originally Posted by Mr.Riaton I agree with you on this for the most part but I do feel like drew wouldn’t have been what he was hadn’t it been for Sean. I’d bet that if we would’ve got Mahomes then we’d remain a top tier team with maybe another Super Bowl and possibly put Sean in hall of fame conversation I understand your reservations, chicken vs egg is a dilemma isn't it.. Maybe this helps. One could easily argue that Brees and Mahomes are similar talents and either would be successful anywhere they go. Sean on the other hand has yet to show that he can do anything notable without Drew. Does Sean get credit for getting Drew into a Saints uniform? Undoubtedly. Is Sean responsible for Drews success, I cant give him that one and if we believe that Drew would be successful anywhere he went then that would include a New Orleans Saints without Sean Payton. All of my roads are still leading back to Drew Brees. Mr.Riaton likes this.
	It's not what you look at that matters, it's what you see. ~ Henry David Thoreau

01-18-2023, 08:07 AM	#24
Mr.Riaton 1000 Posts + Join Date: Mar 2013 Location: Broussard,La. Posts: 1,264	Re: Why doesn’t Payton want to come back to the Saints? Originally Posted by TheOak I understand your reservations, chicken vs egg is a dilemma isn't it.. Maybe this helps. One could easily argue that Brees and Mahomes are similar talents and either would be successful anywhere they go. Sean on the other hand has yet to show that he can do anything notable without Drew. Does Sean get credit for getting Drew into a Saints uniform? Undoubtedly. Is Sean responsible for Drews success, I cant give him that one and if we believe that Drew would be successful anywhere he went then that would include a New Orleans Saints without Sean Payton. All of my roads are still leading back to Drew Brees. Good points. Who would you say is a great coach without a good qb in todays NFL?

01-18-2023, 08:58 AM	#25
TheOak 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Cypress Tx. Posts: 19,026	Re: Why doesn’t Payton want to come back to the Saints? Originally Posted by Mr.Riaton Good points. Who would you say is a great coach without a good qb in todays NFL? I may define great coach differently than others and was about to just say that I thought Sean Payton was a great coach but as I think about my criteria I am having second thoughts. Sean Payton was a successful coach as evident by his record, and a Ring. A great coach surrounds himself with a talented coaching staff, instills discipline in his team and expects it from the coaches he manages. A great coach is a great strategist, great judge of talent, knows how to utalize the talent on his roster, and has succession plans in place for attrition. A great coach is the backbone of the organization. When I consider what went on under his nose, he is kind of a leadership sh1tshow.. Bounty Gate, Vicodin , the pitiful array of position coaches we have, essentially having a roster full of QBs but no QB, and quite a few other examples; I can not give Sean that title. Successful yes, great... not so much. In his year of suspension he told the team "Do your job" but he didn't really walk that walk while the Saints HC. Like him or not, Belichick is a good example of a great coach regardless of record, McVay is very good as well, SmashMouth, Sinner and K Major like this.
	It's not what you look at that matters, it's what you see. ~ Henry David Thoreau

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01-18-2023, 09:56 AM	#26
Mr.Riaton 1000 Posts + Join Date: Mar 2013 Location: Broussard,La. Posts: 1,264	Re: Why doesn’t Payton want to come back to the Saints? Originally Posted by TheOak I may define great coach differently than others and was about to just say that I thought Sean Payton was a great coach but as I think about my criteria I am having second thoughts. Sean Payton was a successful coach as evident by his record, and a Ring. A great coach surrounds himself with a talented coaching staff, instills discipline in his team and expects it from the coaches he manages. A great coach is a great strategist, great judge of talent, knows how to utalize the talent on his roster, and has succession plans in place for attrition. A great coach is the backbone of the organization. When I consider what went on under his nose, he is kind of a leadership sh1tshow.. Bounty Gate, Vicodin , the pitiful array of position coaches we have, essentially having a roster full of QBs but no QB, and quite a few other examples; I can not give Sean that title. Successful yes, great... not so much. In his year of suspension he told the team "Do your job" but he didn't really walk that walk while the Saints HC. Like him or not, Belichick is a good example of a great coach regardless of record, McVay is very good as well, Gotcha. I was under the impression from your original statement that Payton wasn’t a great coach because he had no quality qb to make him successful, but your points in your elaboration are valid. I still think he’s a great coach despite that. I actually agree that Belichick is a great coach as well despite the record. It shows that even the best in todays NFL struggle without great qb play. Although I will say that a top notch defense can go a good ways as well

01-18-2023, 12:37 PM	#27
Rugby Saint II Bounty Money $$$ Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: 5800 Airline Dr. Metairie, LA. Posts: 24,052	Re: Why doesn’t Payton want to come back to the Saints? There is something to be said for Drew Brees being replaced by Philip Rivers after his first contract. He did not become Drew Brees as we know him until Sean Payton molded him. I have read Sean Payton's book "Home Team" and it is very insightful. I'm pretty sure Drew Brees acknowledges that Sean took him to the next level. That is a very important factor when deciding on a head coach. Let's look at this from several different angles. Sean Payton took the Saints from a laughing stock franchise to a perennial winner. He evaluated the staff from the cafeteria workers to front office personnel and clearly put his thumbprint on the future of the franchise coming in. He has led us through hurricanes, covid, devastating injuries, and has fought hand to hand with Roger Goodell. He gave us everything he had and even went through a divorce while he was here. It was time for a change and I'm not upset that he left in the least. I don't blame him for the position the Saints are in now. That finger should be pointed elsewhere. AsylumGuido likes this.
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01-18-2023, 02:50 PM	#28
SmashMouth I donated, did you? Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Mandeville, LA Posts: 38,125 Blog Entries: 29	Re: Why doesn’t Payton want to come back to the Saints? Originally Posted by TheOak I may define great coach differently than others and was about to just say that I thought Sean Payton was a great coach but as I think about my criteria I am having second thoughts. Sean Payton was a successful coach as evident by his record, and a Ring. A great coach surrounds himself with a talented coaching staff, instills discipline in his team and expects it from the coaches he manages. A great coach is a great strategist, great judge of talent, knows how to utalize the talent on his roster, and has succession plans in place for attrition. A great coach is the backbone of the organization. When I consider what went on under his nose, he is kind of a leadership sh1tshow.. Bounty Gate, Vicodin , the pitiful array of position coaches we have, essentially having a roster full of QBs but no QB, and quite a few other examples; I can not give Sean that title. Successful yes, great... not so much. In his year of suspension he told the team "Do your job" but he didn't really walk that walk while the Saints HC. Like him or not, Belichick is a good example of a great coach regardless of record, McVay is very good as well, No argument here. BB sill knows the rule book better than anyone. That little nugget sliver alone nets us TWO berths into SBs since those two miracle plays then don't exist. Rugby Saint II likes this.

01-22-2023, 05:20 PM	#29
AsylumGuido 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Bossier City, LA Posts: 26,220	Re: Why doesn’t Payton want to come back to the Saints? Most likely not, but this does have some logic behind it. Twitter SmashMouth and Rugby Saint II like this.

01-31-2023, 11:50 AM	#30
Rugby Saint II Bounty Money $$$ Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: 5800 Airline Dr. Metairie, LA. Posts: 24,052	Re: Why doesn’t Payton want to come back to the Saints? I would welcome Sean Payton back with open arms. If he could lead us to another Super Bowl victory he would ensure his place in the Hall of Fame. Of course, if he took another team to the same place he took the Saints to, then he is a definite shoe in for the Hall of Fame. AsylumGuido likes this.