Observations from the Saints win vs Titans

09-11-2023, 02:32 PM

Originally Posted by Boston Saint

Just curious Matthew, but do you know for a fact that the Saints players ARE being hurt for turf toe at a higher rate? What’s your source?

Of course I don't know anything for a fact, just going on things I've read in the past. We are NOT talking about all artificial surfaces, this is specific to a handful of teams using a specific type. This is just one reference, that speaks about "slit film" or "Turf Nation S5" if you prefer.

https://www.wwltv.com/article/sports...d-6e701a1f64db

AsylumGuido · 09-11-2023, 02:34 PM

Originally Posted by MatthewT

Of course I don't know anything for a fact, just going on things I've read in the past. We are NOT talking about all artificial surfaces, this is specific to a handful of teams using a specific type. This is just one reference, that speaks about "slit film" or "Turf Nation S5" if you prefer.

https://www.wwltv.com/article/sports...d-6e701a1f64db

According to this the field surface is of a different type than last year.

leilung · 09-11-2023, 02:35 PM

Originally Posted by Boston Saint

Just curious Matthew, but do you know for a fact that the Saints players ARE being hurt for turf toe at a higher rate? What’s your source?

Just FYI, because I'm a guy that follows the data, there's an interesting descrepancy with regard to the turf injury studies.

It seems that the studies conducted by the NFLPA indicated that there are significant increased chances for non-contact injuries on Turf vs. Grass. https://nflpa.com/posts/nfl-approach...surface-uneven

HOWEVER, in studies conducted by the League, it showed almost negligible differences in the the non-contact lower leg injuries sustained on either surface.

The players have generally stated a preference for grass surface fields, but the owners don't appear to be budging in their preference for both to be played on.

I could find no data collected on injuries due to player shoe preference. If you could share it Guido, I'd appreciate the extra layer of info.

Draw your own conclusions guys.

AsylumGuido likes this.

AsylumGuido · 09-11-2023, 02:45 PM

Originally Posted by leilung

Just FYI, because I'm a guy that follows the data, there's an interesting descrepancy with regard to the turf injury studies.

It seems that the studies conducted by the NFLPA indicated that there are significant increased chances for non-contact injuries on Turf vs. Grass. https://nflpa.com/posts/nfl-approach...surface-uneven

HOWEVER, in studies conducted by the League, it showed almost negligible differences in the the non-contact lower leg injuries sustained on either surface.

https://twitter.com/SeifertESPN/stat...47175874715648

The players have generally stated a preference for grass surface fields, but the owners don't appear to be budging in their preference for both to be played on.

I could find no data collected on injuries due to player shoe preference. If you could share it Guido, I'd appreciate the extra layer of info.

Draw your own conclusions guys.

These are just a drop in the bucket. There are dozens of different articles on this out there. They have been writing about the connection between these lighter weight shoes contribution to injuries for the past decade and a half, at least.

NFL Injuries & Improper Footwear

Turf-toe: a shoe-surface related football injury

Are Shoes Part Of The Problem With Football Injuries?

Discussing the slew of recent injuries in the NFL and the various theories about it, King noted that one of his sources cited the inadequacy of the football shoes, saying they were equivalent to wearing ballet shoes on the football field.

Super Bowl Shoes: Do Football Cleats Contribute to Injuries?

BakoSaint · 09-11-2023, 02:58 PM

Originally Posted by leilung

Just FYI, because I'm a guy that follows the data, there's an interesting descrepancy with regard to the turf injury studies.

It seems that the studies conducted by the NFLPA indicated that there are significant increased chances for non-contact injuries on Turf vs. Grass. https://nflpa.com/posts/nfl-approach...surface-uneven

HOWEVER, in studies conducted by the League, it showed almost negligible differences in the the non-contact lower leg injuries sustained on either surface.
https://twitter.com/SeifertESPN/stat...47175874715648

The players have generally stated a preference for grass surface fields, but the owners don't appear to be budging in their preference for both to be played on.

I could find no data collected on injuries due to player shoe preference. If you could share it Guido, I'd appreciate the extra layer of info.

Draw your own conclusions guys.

The graph you show was kind of cherry picking 2021 data and stating 'mission accomplished.' But if you look at all 4 years, the injuries on artificial turf were 21% higher 2018, 33% higher in 2019, 17% higher in 2020, and 1% higher in 2021. Obviously 1% higher is not statistically significant but the long term average of 20% higher is.

Sure enough, in 2022 the injury rate on turf was actually 37% higher than on grass. Goodell and his goon squad were being incredibly cynical and abusive to gas light players over one outlier year in 2021 where the injury rates were the same and ignore the long term 20% higher average for injuries on turf.

https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/...tly-safer-turf

If shoes are part of the problem too, lets address that. Lets put shoe clauses in our players contracts or scout players based on shoe preference or whatever it takes to not lose two 1st round picks to turf toe in 2 years. But clearly turf is less safe. Probably the turf salesman says its great and buys someone in the front office a double at a nice restaurant bar, but we need to cut him off.

TheDeuce · 09-11-2023, 03:39 PM

I’m honestly just curious about the folks here who think we got screwed by the refs yesterday.

If anything, I’d say Tennessee got shafted way worse. Refs blew the whistle on their fumble recovery which may have resulted in a scoop and score, and at the very least cost them ~20 yards of field position. But even beyond that, the refs called it an incomplete pass. Huge surprise and today is mostly being called a botched call. That was at least a 3-point swing, and perhaps a 10-point swing. Dean Blandino breaks it down here: https://x.com/the33rdteamfb/status/1...HaGNivo0JqzOWQ

Now don’t get me wrong, I’m certainly not complaining. Lord knows we’ve been on the wrong end of a ton of calls in recent years (including some yesterday), so it’s nice to catch the break on this one which would’ve dramatically changed the trajectory of the game.

Boston Saint · 09-11-2023, 03:43 PM

So no significant difference has been shown.

BakoSaint · 09-11-2023, 03:48 PM

Originally Posted by Boston Saint

So no significant difference has been shown.

No, a 20% higher injury rate has been shown on turf but that 20% higher rate long term manifests as a 1-37% rate year to year. From 2018 to present it was 21%, 33%, 17%, 1%, 37%. The NFL took out ads during the super bowl and bought space on the jumbotrons on time square to announce that the difference had disappeared and it was a closed issue when it went down to 1%, but that was just an outlier year and it went right back up. Turns out 1600 players who play on the stuff every day know a bit more than an old drunk named Jerry Jones who often forgets why he has rubber floors and hand rails throughout his bathroom and a little escalator chair on his stairs.

Boston Saint · 09-11-2023, 04:01 PM

Originally Posted by TheDeuce

I’m honestly just curious about the folks here who think we got screwed by the refs yesterday.

If anything, I’d say Tennessee got shafted way worse. Refs blew the whistle on their fumble recovery which may have resulted in a scoop and score, and at the very least cost them ~20 yards of field position. But even beyond that, the refs called it an incomplete pass. Huge surprise and today is mostly being called a botched call. That was at least a 3-point swing, and perhaps a 10-point swing. Dean Blandino breaks it down here: https://x.com/the33rdteamfb/status/1...HaGNivo0JqzOWQ

Now don’t get me wrong, I’m certainly not complaining. Lord knows we’ve been on the wrong end of a ton of calls in recent years (including some yesterday), so it’s nice to catch the break on this one which would’ve dramatically changed the trajectory of the game.

Carr’s “fumble”was no worse than the tuck rule. The league regularly leans towards an incomplete pass call on those types of plays.

I didn’t think the defender demonstrated control of the ball inbounds on the fumble on the opening kickoff, but it was at least close.

The Non PI can in the 4th against Olave was the worst call/non call of the day.
The defender clearly dragged him down early while not playing the ball or looking back at all. They make that call and the game is sealed.

Apart from that, there were just numerous times I noticed our defensive ends getting dragged down that weren’t called. It just seem like frequently we get a play in our favor, like the Shaheed sweep run that was called back the stop on third down that was extended by holding on the Tipped pass play. I honestly felt the calls went their way more than the Saints.

BakoSaint · 09-11-2023, 04:02 PM

Originally Posted by TheDeuce

I’m honestly just curious about the folks here who think we got screwed by the refs yesterday.

If anything, I’d say Tennessee got shafted way worse. Refs blew the whistle on their fumble recovery which may have resulted in a scoop and score, and at the very least cost them ~20 yards of field position. But even beyond that, the refs called it an incomplete pass. Huge surprise and today is mostly being called a botched call. That was at least a 3-point swing, and perhaps a 10-point swing. Dean Blandino breaks it down here: https://x.com/the33rdteamfb/status/1...HaGNivo0JqzOWQ

Now don’t get me wrong, I’m certainly not complaining. Lord knows we’ve been on the wrong end of a ton of calls in recent years (including some yesterday), so it’s nice to catch the break on this one which would’ve dramatically changed the trajectory of the game.

A lot of bad calls went against us too. There was a long pass with clear early contact that was not called PI, then on the next series the Titans get a ticky tack PI to extend their drive. Titans were holding all day. The refs made bad calls all day and they face no accountability. Anyone who says they should face accountability or be second guessed gets to lead the league in penalties against for several years.

I think the refs want to completely eliminate instant replay. They dont care about getting the call right, in fact they pride themselves in their power to get it wrong. Thats why they killed replay of pass interference. In this case Carr clearly fumbled. It was clearly Titans ball. But the refs had ruled it an incomplete pass on the field and stopped the return. So they let the call stand on replay even though replay clearly showed the call was wrong. Now they can produce stats that show most calls are not reversed on replay, and try to exclude more critical plays from instant replay. All to lower our sensitivity to bad calls, so when playoff season comes they can get those big checks for helping out the large markets.

09-11-2023, 02:32 PM	#71
Threaded by MatthewT 1000 Posts + Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Mississippi Posts: 2,706 Rating: (0 votes - average) Originally Posted by Boston Saint Just curious Matthew, but do you know for a fact that the Saints players ARE being hurt for turf toe at a higher rate? What’s your source? Of course I don't know anything for a fact, just going on things I've read in the past. We are NOT talking about all artificial surfaces, this is specific to a handful of teams using a specific type. This is just one reference, that speaks about "slit film" or "Turf Nation S5" if you prefer. https://www.wwltv.com/article/sports...d-6e701a1f64db
Views: 4325

09-11-2023, 02:34 PM	#72
AsylumGuido 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Bossier City, LA Posts: 24,395	Re: Observations from the Saints win vs Titans Originally Posted by MatthewT Of course I don't know anything for a fact, just going on things I've read in the past. We are NOT talking about all artificial surfaces, this is specific to a handful of teams using a specific type. This is just one reference, that speaks about "slit film" or "Turf Nation S5" if you prefer. https://www.wwltv.com/article/sports...d-6e701a1f64db According to this the field surface is of a different type than last year. Twitter

09-11-2023, 02:35 PM	#73
leilung Booty Bandit Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: The Wastelands that are NJ Posts: 1,165	Re: Observations from the Saints win vs Titans Originally Posted by Boston Saint Just curious Matthew, but do you know for a fact that the Saints players ARE being hurt for turf toe at a higher rate? What’s your source? Just FYI, because I'm a guy that follows the data, there's an interesting descrepancy with regard to the turf injury studies. It seems that the studies conducted by the NFLPA indicated that there are significant increased chances for non-contact injuries on Turf vs. Grass. https://nflpa.com/posts/nfl-approach...surface-uneven HOWEVER, in studies conducted by the League, it showed almost negligible differences in the the non-contact lower leg injuries sustained on either surface. Twitter The players have generally stated a preference for grass surface fields, but the owners don't appear to be budging in their preference for both to be played on. I could find no data collected on injuries due to player shoe preference. If you could share it Guido, I'd appreciate the extra layer of info. Draw your own conclusions guys. AsylumGuido likes this.
	A wise man once said, "Poo-poo smells just as bad as s#!%. One just SOUNDS cuter!"

09-11-2023, 02:45 PM	#74
AsylumGuido 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Bossier City, LA Posts: 24,395	Re: Observations from the Saints win vs Titans Originally Posted by leilung Just FYI, because I'm a guy that follows the data, there's an interesting descrepancy with regard to the turf injury studies. It seems that the studies conducted by the NFLPA indicated that there are significant increased chances for non-contact injuries on Turf vs. Grass. https://nflpa.com/posts/nfl-approach...surface-uneven HOWEVER, in studies conducted by the League, it showed almost negligible differences in the the non-contact lower leg injuries sustained on either surface. https://twitter.com/SeifertESPN/stat...47175874715648 The players have generally stated a preference for grass surface fields, but the owners don't appear to be budging in their preference for both to be played on. I could find no data collected on injuries due to player shoe preference. If you could share it Guido, I'd appreciate the extra layer of info. Draw your own conclusions guys. These are just a drop in the bucket. There are dozens of different articles on this out there. They have been writing about the connection between these lighter weight shoes contribution to injuries for the past decade and a half, at least. NFL Injuries & Improper Footwear Turf-toe: a shoe-surface related football injury Are Shoes Part Of The Problem With Football Injuries? Discussing the slew of recent injuries in the NFL and the various theories about it, King noted that one of his sources cited the inadequacy of the football shoes, saying they were equivalent to wearing ballet shoes on the football field. Super Bowl Shoes: Do Football Cleats Contribute to Injuries?
	“The pessimist sees difficulty in every opportunity. The optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty.” — Winston Churchill

09-11-2023, 02:58 PM	#75
BakoSaint 1000 Posts + Join Date: Dec 2018 Posts: 1,767	Re: Observations from the Saints win vs Titans Originally Posted by leilung Just FYI, because I'm a guy that follows the data, there's an interesting descrepancy with regard to the turf injury studies. It seems that the studies conducted by the NFLPA indicated that there are significant increased chances for non-contact injuries on Turf vs. Grass. https://nflpa.com/posts/nfl-approach...surface-uneven HOWEVER, in studies conducted by the League, it showed almost negligible differences in the the non-contact lower leg injuries sustained on either surface. https://twitter.com/SeifertESPN/stat...47175874715648 The players have generally stated a preference for grass surface fields, but the owners don't appear to be budging in their preference for both to be played on. I could find no data collected on injuries due to player shoe preference. If you could share it Guido, I'd appreciate the extra layer of info. Draw your own conclusions guys. The graph you show was kind of cherry picking 2021 data and stating 'mission accomplished.' But if you look at all 4 years, the injuries on artificial turf were 21% higher 2018, 33% higher in 2019, 17% higher in 2020, and 1% higher in 2021. Obviously 1% higher is not statistically significant but the long term average of 20% higher is. Sure enough, in 2022 the injury rate on turf was actually 37% higher than on grass. Goodell and his goon squad were being incredibly cynical and abusive to gas light players over one outlier year in 2021 where the injury rates were the same and ignore the long term 20% higher average for injuries on turf. https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/...tly-safer-turf If shoes are part of the problem too, lets address that. Lets put shoe clauses in our players contracts or scout players based on shoe preference or whatever it takes to not lose two 1st round picks to turf toe in 2 years. But clearly turf is less safe. Probably the turf salesman says its great and buys someone in the front office a double at a nice restaurant bar, but we need to cut him off.
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09-11-2023, 03:39 PM	#76
TheDeuce 1000 Posts + Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 2,928	Re: Observations from the Saints win vs Titans I’m honestly just curious about the folks here who think we got screwed by the refs yesterday. If anything, I’d say Tennessee got shafted way worse. Refs blew the whistle on their fumble recovery which may have resulted in a scoop and score, and at the very least cost them ~20 yards of field position. But even beyond that, the refs called it an incomplete pass. Huge surprise and today is mostly being called a botched call. That was at least a 3-point swing, and perhaps a 10-point swing. Dean Blandino breaks it down here: https://x.com/the33rdteamfb/status/1...HaGNivo0JqzOWQ Now don’t get me wrong, I’m certainly not complaining. Lord knows we’ve been on the wrong end of a ton of calls in recent years (including some yesterday), so it’s nice to catch the break on this one which would’ve dramatically changed the trajectory of the game. iceshack149, jnormand, AsylumGuido and 1 others like this.
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09-11-2023, 03:43 PM	#77
Boston Saint 1000 Posts + Join Date: Nov 2020 Location: Massachusetts Posts: 4,878	Re: Observations from the Saints win vs Titans So no significant difference has been shown.

09-11-2023, 03:48 PM	#78
BakoSaint 1000 Posts + Join Date: Dec 2018 Posts: 1,767	Re: Observations from the Saints win vs Titans Originally Posted by Boston Saint So no significant difference has been shown. No, a 20% higher injury rate has been shown on turf but that 20% higher rate long term manifests as a 1-37% rate year to year. From 2018 to present it was 21%, 33%, 17%, 1%, 37%. The NFL took out ads during the super bowl and bought space on the jumbotrons on time square to announce that the difference had disappeared and it was a closed issue when it went down to 1%, but that was just an outlier year and it went right back up. Turns out 1600 players who play on the stuff every day know a bit more than an old drunk named Jerry Jones who often forgets why he has rubber floors and hand rails throughout his bathroom and a little escalator chair on his stairs. SmashMouth likes this.
BakoSaint 1000 Posts + Join Date: Dec 2018 Posts: 1,767

09-11-2023, 04:01 PM	#79
Boston Saint 1000 Posts + Join Date: Nov 2020 Location: Massachusetts Posts: 4,878	Re: Observations from the Saints win vs Titans Originally Posted by TheDeuce I’m honestly just curious about the folks here who think we got screwed by the refs yesterday. If anything, I’d say Tennessee got shafted way worse. Refs blew the whistle on their fumble recovery which may have resulted in a scoop and score, and at the very least cost them ~20 yards of field position. But even beyond that, the refs called it an incomplete pass. Huge surprise and today is mostly being called a botched call. That was at least a 3-point swing, and perhaps a 10-point swing. Dean Blandino breaks it down here: https://x.com/the33rdteamfb/status/1...HaGNivo0JqzOWQ Now don’t get me wrong, I’m certainly not complaining. Lord knows we’ve been on the wrong end of a ton of calls in recent years (including some yesterday), so it’s nice to catch the break on this one which would’ve dramatically changed the trajectory of the game. Carr’s “fumble”was no worse than the tuck rule. The league regularly leans towards an incomplete pass call on those types of plays. I didn’t think the defender demonstrated control of the ball inbounds on the fumble on the opening kickoff, but it was at least close. The Non PI can in the 4th against Olave was the worst call/non call of the day. The defender clearly dragged him down early while not playing the ball or looking back at all. They make that call and the game is sealed. Apart from that, there were just numerous times I noticed our defensive ends getting dragged down that weren’t called. It just seem like frequently we get a play in our favor, like the Shaheed sweep run that was called back the stop on third down that was extended by holding on the Tipped pass play. I honestly felt the calls went their way more than the Saints. SmashMouth likes this.
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09-11-2023, 04:02 PM	#80
BakoSaint 1000 Posts + Join Date: Dec 2018 Posts: 1,767	Re: Observations from the Saints win vs Titans Originally Posted by TheDeuce I’m honestly just curious about the folks here who think we got screwed by the refs yesterday. If anything, I’d say Tennessee got shafted way worse. Refs blew the whistle on their fumble recovery which may have resulted in a scoop and score, and at the very least cost them ~20 yards of field position. But even beyond that, the refs called it an incomplete pass. Huge surprise and today is mostly being called a botched call. That was at least a 3-point swing, and perhaps a 10-point swing. Dean Blandino breaks it down here: https://x.com/the33rdteamfb/status/1...HaGNivo0JqzOWQ Now don’t get me wrong, I’m certainly not complaining. Lord knows we’ve been on the wrong end of a ton of calls in recent years (including some yesterday), so it’s nice to catch the break on this one which would’ve dramatically changed the trajectory of the game. A lot of bad calls went against us too. There was a long pass with clear early contact that was not called PI, then on the next series the Titans get a ticky tack PI to extend their drive. Titans were holding all day. The refs made bad calls all day and they face no accountability. Anyone who says they should face accountability or be second guessed gets to lead the league in penalties against for several years. I think the refs want to completely eliminate instant replay. They dont care about getting the call right, in fact they pride themselves in their power to get it wrong. Thats why they killed replay of pass interference. In this case Carr clearly fumbled. It was clearly Titans ball. But the refs had ruled it an incomplete pass on the field and stopped the return. So they let the call stand on replay even though replay clearly showed the call was wrong. Now they can produce stats that show most calls are not reversed on replay, and try to exclude more critical plays from instant replay. All to lower our sensitivity to bad calls, so when playoff season comes they can get those big checks for helping out the large markets. SmashMouth likes this.
BakoSaint 1000 Posts + Join Date: Dec 2018 Posts: 1,767