Observations from the Saints win vs Titans

Boston Saint · 09-11-2023, 12:36 PM

Originally Posted by MatthewT

To my understanding, they are still using the same type of slit film turf and that is what appears to be hurting the players at a higher rate.

Just curious Matthew, but do you know for a fact that the Saints players ARE being hurt for turf toe at a higher rate? What’s your source?

AsylumGuido · 09-11-2023, 12:44 PM

Originally Posted by Boston Saint

Just curious Matthew, but do you know for a fact that the Saints players ARE being hurt for turf toe at a higher rate? What’s your source?

I believe this article may refute that.

Return to Play Following High-Grade Turf Toe Injuries in National Football League AthletesBiomechanical Comparison of Arthroscopic SMC Knot Constructs

Turf toe is a common injury, particularly among high level football players.4 These injuries were first described in 1976 in collegiate football players at the University of West Virginia as a hyperextension injury to the plantar plate of the first metatarsophalangeal (MTP) joint. They noted an incidence of 5.4 turf toe injuries per season.1 A survey of 80 athletes in the National Football League (NFL) found that 45% had sustained turf toe injuries previously.2 This injury was originally described in athletes competing only on artificial surfaces, but a later study demonstrated that turf toe occurred equally among athletes participating on modern artificial turf and natural grass.3

Also this study:

Outcome of Turf Toe Injuries in NFL Players

This was a retrospective review to identify all NFL players who sustained a turf toe injury during the seasons 2011-2014. Players with first MTP capsular ligamentous complex injury were identified through a review of online resources including NFL injury reports, player registries, game summary sites, NFL news and the Fantasy Doctors database.

Seventy-one turf toe injuries were identified. Twenty-nine occurred on grass, 29 on turf and the playing surface of 13 injuries could not be identified.

MatthewT · 09-11-2023, 02:32 PM

Originally Posted by Boston Saint

Just curious Matthew, but do you know for a fact that the Saints players ARE being hurt for turf toe at a higher rate? What’s your source?

Of course I don't know anything for a fact, just going on things I've read in the past. We are NOT talking about all artificial surfaces, this is specific to a handful of teams using a specific type. This is just one reference, that speaks about "slit film" or "Turf Nation S5" if you prefer.

https://www.wwltv.com/article/sports...d-6e701a1f64db

AsylumGuido · 09-11-2023, 02:34 PM

Originally Posted by MatthewT

Of course I don't know anything for a fact, just going on things I've read in the past. We are NOT talking about all artificial surfaces, this is specific to a handful of teams using a specific type. This is just one reference, that speaks about "slit film" or "Turf Nation S5" if you prefer.

https://www.wwltv.com/article/sports...d-6e701a1f64db

According to this the field surface is of a different type than last year.

MatthewT · 09-11-2023, 04:04 PM

Originally Posted by AsylumGuido

According to this the field surface is of a different type than last year.

https://twitter.com/Kat_Terrell/stat...06820583911598

Seems like there is a lot of conflicting information. There is no question the turf itself was changed out before the season like it normally is. The information I am finding is the type of surface is the exact same stuff that has been used in the dome since 2019 which is Turf Nation S5 / slit film.

BakoSaint · 09-11-2023, 04:12 PM

Originally Posted by MatthewT

Seems like there is a lot of conflicting information. There is no question the turf itself was changed out before the season like it normally is. The information I am finding is the type of surface is the exact same stuff that has been used in the dome since 2019 which is Turf Nation S5 / slit film.

It's probably still slit film turf like last year, but probably this year the salesman upsold our front office on the deluxe platinum slit film at a 30% markup that comes with an extended warranty, multi-color sparkles, a collectable trading card featuring top MLB prospect Wander Franco, a certificate of authenticity from the Bradford exchange, exclusive presale access to NFT's featuring Khloe Kardashian and Logan Paul on the turf, and limited edition exclusive seasonal pumpkin spice scent.

AsylumGuido · 09-11-2023, 04:43 PM

Originally Posted by BakoSaint

It's probably still slit film turf like last year, but probably this year the salesman upsold our front office on the deluxe platinum slit film at a 30% markup that comes with an extended warranty, multi-color sparkles, a collectable trading card featuring top MLB prospect Wander Franco, a certificate of authenticity from the Bradford exchange, exclusive presale access to NFT's featuring Khloe Kardashian and Logan Paul on the turf, and limited edition exclusive seasonal pumpkin spice scent.

Damn, your hatred runs deep. Is there anything to do with the Saints that actually brings even the smallest amount of pleasure into your life?

BakoSaint · 09-11-2023, 05:13 PM

Originally Posted by AsylumGuido

Damn, your hatred runs deep. Is there anything to do with the Saints that actually brings even the smallest amount of pleasure into your life?

I like when we make big plays. I like Grupe and Shaheed. I was happy we drafted oline in the 4th. I was happy to see Davenport go. Knowing we have a 1st round pick this year brings me joy.

As to the turf, take a joke man. As another poster said there is conflicting info that the turf is 'new' but 'the same' so its pretty logical to figure that it might be some kind of 'new and improved' bs now with Omega 3's, antioxidants, and techron. Its kind of the classic thing. Turf is like cigarettes. So if the turf salesmen want to keep pushing it they have to add filters and menthol and buy a doctor to say its healthy now. So of course every years model is going to be new and improved so the teams that don't do something about turf can keep claiming they are doing something about turf.

leilung · 09-11-2023, 02:35 PM

Originally Posted by Boston Saint

Just curious Matthew, but do you know for a fact that the Saints players ARE being hurt for turf toe at a higher rate? What’s your source?

Just FYI, because I'm a guy that follows the data, there's an interesting descrepancy with regard to the turf injury studies.

It seems that the studies conducted by the NFLPA indicated that there are significant increased chances for non-contact injuries on Turf vs. Grass. https://nflpa.com/posts/nfl-approach...surface-uneven

HOWEVER, in studies conducted by the League, it showed almost negligible differences in the the non-contact lower leg injuries sustained on either surface.

The players have generally stated a preference for grass surface fields, but the owners don't appear to be budging in their preference for both to be played on.

I could find no data collected on injuries due to player shoe preference. If you could share it Guido, I'd appreciate the extra layer of info.

Draw your own conclusions guys.

AsylumGuido likes this.

AsylumGuido · 09-11-2023, 02:45 PM

Originally Posted by leilung

Just FYI, because I'm a guy that follows the data, there's an interesting descrepancy with regard to the turf injury studies.

It seems that the studies conducted by the NFLPA indicated that there are significant increased chances for non-contact injuries on Turf vs. Grass. https://nflpa.com/posts/nfl-approach...surface-uneven

HOWEVER, in studies conducted by the League, it showed almost negligible differences in the the non-contact lower leg injuries sustained on either surface.

https://twitter.com/SeifertESPN/stat...47175874715648

The players have generally stated a preference for grass surface fields, but the owners don't appear to be budging in their preference for both to be played on.

I could find no data collected on injuries due to player shoe preference. If you could share it Guido, I'd appreciate the extra layer of info.

Draw your own conclusions guys.

These are just a drop in the bucket. There are dozens of different articles on this out there. They have been writing about the connection between these lighter weight shoes contribution to injuries for the past decade and a half, at least.

NFL Injuries & Improper Footwear

Turf-toe: a shoe-surface related football injury

Are Shoes Part Of The Problem With Football Injuries?

Discussing the slew of recent injuries in the NFL and the various theories about it, King noted that one of his sources cited the inadequacy of the football shoes, saying they were equivalent to wearing ballet shoes on the football field.

Super Bowl Shoes: Do Football Cleats Contribute to Injuries?

09-11-2023, 12:36 PM	#1
Boston Saint 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Nov 2020 Location: Massachusetts Posts: 5,137	Re: Observations from the Saints win vs Titans Originally Posted by MatthewT To my understanding, they are still using the same type of slit film turf and that is what appears to be hurting the players at a higher rate. Just curious Matthew, but do you know for a fact that the Saints players ARE being hurt for turf toe at a higher rate? What’s your source?

09-11-2023, 12:44 PM	#2
AsylumGuido 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Bossier City, LA Posts: 26,622	Re: Observations from the Saints win vs Titans Originally Posted by Boston Saint Just curious Matthew, but do you know for a fact that the Saints players ARE being hurt for turf toe at a higher rate? What’s your source? I believe this article may refute that. Return to Play Following High-Grade Turf Toe Injuries in National Football League AthletesBiomechanical Comparison of Arthroscopic SMC Knot Constructs Turf toe is a common injury, particularly among high level football players.4 These injuries were first described in 1976 in collegiate football players at the University of West Virginia as a hyperextension injury to the plantar plate of the first metatarsophalangeal (MTP) joint. They noted an incidence of 5.4 turf toe injuries per season.1 A survey of 80 athletes in the National Football League (NFL) found that 45% had sustained turf toe injuries previously.2 This injury was originally described in athletes competing only on artificial surfaces, but a later study demonstrated that turf toe occurred equally among athletes participating on modern artificial turf and natural grass.3 Also this study: Outcome of Turf Toe Injuries in NFL Players This was a retrospective review to identify all NFL players who sustained a turf toe injury during the seasons 2011-2014. Players with first MTP capsular ligamentous complex injury were identified through a review of online resources including NFL injury reports, player registries, game summary sites, NFL news and the Fantasy Doctors database. Seventy-one turf toe injuries were identified. Twenty-nine occurred on grass, 29 on turf and the playing surface of 13 injuries could not be identified. Crusader likes this.
	“The pessimist sees difficulty in every opportunity. The optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty.” — Winston Churchill

09-11-2023, 02:32 PM	#3
MatthewT 1000 Posts + Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Mississippi Posts: 2,729	Re: Observations from the Saints win vs Titans Originally Posted by Boston Saint Just curious Matthew, but do you know for a fact that the Saints players ARE being hurt for turf toe at a higher rate? What’s your source? Of course I don't know anything for a fact, just going on things I've read in the past. We are NOT talking about all artificial surfaces, this is specific to a handful of teams using a specific type. This is just one reference, that speaks about "slit film" or "Turf Nation S5" if you prefer. https://www.wwltv.com/article/sports...d-6e701a1f64db

09-11-2023, 02:34 PM	#4
AsylumGuido 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Bossier City, LA Posts: 26,622	Re: Observations from the Saints win vs Titans Originally Posted by MatthewT Of course I don't know anything for a fact, just going on things I've read in the past. We are NOT talking about all artificial surfaces, this is specific to a handful of teams using a specific type. This is just one reference, that speaks about "slit film" or "Turf Nation S5" if you prefer. https://www.wwltv.com/article/sports...d-6e701a1f64db According to this the field surface is of a different type than last year. Twitter

09-11-2023, 04:04 PM	#5
MatthewT 1000 Posts + Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Mississippi Posts: 2,729	Re: Observations from the Saints win vs Titans Originally Posted by AsylumGuido According to this the field surface is of a different type than last year. https://twitter.com/Kat_Terrell/stat...06820583911598 Seems like there is a lot of conflicting information. There is no question the turf itself was changed out before the season like it normally is. The information I am finding is the type of surface is the exact same stuff that has been used in the dome since 2019 which is Turf Nation S5 / slit film. leilung likes this.

09-11-2023, 04:12 PM	#6
BakoSaint 1000 Posts + Join Date: Dec 2018 Posts: 2,385	Re: Observations from the Saints win vs Titans Originally Posted by MatthewT Seems like there is a lot of conflicting information. There is no question the turf itself was changed out before the season like it normally is. The information I am finding is the type of surface is the exact same stuff that has been used in the dome since 2019 which is Turf Nation S5 / slit film. It's probably still slit film turf like last year, but probably this year the salesman upsold our front office on the deluxe platinum slit film at a 30% markup that comes with an extended warranty, multi-color sparkles, a collectable trading card featuring top MLB prospect Wander Franco, a certificate of authenticity from the Bradford exchange, exclusive presale access to NFT's featuring Khloe Kardashian and Logan Paul on the turf, and limited edition exclusive seasonal pumpkin spice scent. MatthewT likes this.
BakoSaint 1000 Posts + Join Date: Dec 2018 Posts: 2,385

09-11-2023, 04:43 PM	#7
AsylumGuido 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Bossier City, LA Posts: 26,622	Re: Observations from the Saints win vs Titans Originally Posted by BakoSaint It's probably still slit film turf like last year, but probably this year the salesman upsold our front office on the deluxe platinum slit film at a 30% markup that comes with an extended warranty, multi-color sparkles, a collectable trading card featuring top MLB prospect Wander Franco, a certificate of authenticity from the Bradford exchange, exclusive presale access to NFT's featuring Khloe Kardashian and Logan Paul on the turf, and limited edition exclusive seasonal pumpkin spice scent. Damn, your hatred runs deep. Is there anything to do with the Saints that actually brings even the smallest amount of pleasure into your life?

09-11-2023, 05:13 PM	#8
BakoSaint 1000 Posts + Join Date: Dec 2018 Posts: 2,385	Re: Observations from the Saints win vs Titans Originally Posted by AsylumGuido Damn, your hatred runs deep. Is there anything to do with the Saints that actually brings even the smallest amount of pleasure into your life? I like when we make big plays. I like Grupe and Shaheed. I was happy we drafted oline in the 4th. I was happy to see Davenport go. Knowing we have a 1st round pick this year brings me joy. As to the turf, take a joke man. As another poster said there is conflicting info that the turf is 'new' but 'the same' so its pretty logical to figure that it might be some kind of 'new and improved' bs now with Omega 3's, antioxidants, and techron. Its kind of the classic thing. Turf is like cigarettes. So if the turf salesmen want to keep pushing it they have to add filters and menthol and buy a doctor to say its healthy now. So of course every years model is going to be new and improved so the teams that don't do something about turf can keep claiming they are doing something about turf.
BakoSaint 1000 Posts + Join Date: Dec 2018 Posts: 2,385

09-11-2023, 02:35 PM	#9
leilung Booty Bandit Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: The Wastelands that are NJ Posts: 1,424	Re: Observations from the Saints win vs Titans Originally Posted by Boston Saint Just curious Matthew, but do you know for a fact that the Saints players ARE being hurt for turf toe at a higher rate? What’s your source? Just FYI, because I'm a guy that follows the data, there's an interesting descrepancy with regard to the turf injury studies. It seems that the studies conducted by the NFLPA indicated that there are significant increased chances for non-contact injuries on Turf vs. Grass. https://nflpa.com/posts/nfl-approach...surface-uneven HOWEVER, in studies conducted by the League, it showed almost negligible differences in the the non-contact lower leg injuries sustained on either surface. Twitter The players have generally stated a preference for grass surface fields, but the owners don't appear to be budging in their preference for both to be played on. I could find no data collected on injuries due to player shoe preference. If you could share it Guido, I'd appreciate the extra layer of info. Draw your own conclusions guys. AsylumGuido likes this.
	A wise man once said, "Poo-poo smells just as bad as s#!%. One just SOUNDS cuter!"

09-11-2023, 02:45 PM	#10
AsylumGuido 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Bossier City, LA Posts: 26,622	Re: Observations from the Saints win vs Titans Originally Posted by leilung Just FYI, because I'm a guy that follows the data, there's an interesting descrepancy with regard to the turf injury studies. It seems that the studies conducted by the NFLPA indicated that there are significant increased chances for non-contact injuries on Turf vs. Grass. https://nflpa.com/posts/nfl-approach...surface-uneven HOWEVER, in studies conducted by the League, it showed almost negligible differences in the the non-contact lower leg injuries sustained on either surface. https://twitter.com/SeifertESPN/stat...47175874715648 The players have generally stated a preference for grass surface fields, but the owners don't appear to be budging in their preference for both to be played on. I could find no data collected on injuries due to player shoe preference. If you could share it Guido, I'd appreciate the extra layer of info. Draw your own conclusions guys. These are just a drop in the bucket. There are dozens of different articles on this out there. They have been writing about the connection between these lighter weight shoes contribution to injuries for the past decade and a half, at least. NFL Injuries & Improper Footwear Turf-toe: a shoe-surface related football injury Are Shoes Part Of The Problem With Football Injuries? Discussing the slew of recent injuries in the NFL and the various theories about it, King noted that one of his sources cited the inadequacy of the football shoes, saying they were equivalent to wearing ballet shoes on the football field. Super Bowl Shoes: Do Football Cleats Contribute to Injuries?
	“The pessimist sees difficulty in every opportunity. The optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty.” — Winston Churchill