Observations from the Saints win vs Titans

leilung · 09-11-2023, 07:33 AM

Originally Posted by SmashMouth

If Turner needs surgery, it must be a torn ligament.

It's kind of a bad luck injury. Agreed with you all, however, he needs to be available. Let's see what Lalos can bring in live bullets.

At some point, the facilities team really needs to look at the turf they're using as the culprit in these injuries. Penning, Thomas, and Harty all had TT injuries last year. Now Turner in Game 1. If other team fields are having the same issues, you know what the problem is.

AsylumGuido · 09-11-2023, 08:26 AM

Originally Posted by leilung

At some point, the facilities team really needs to look at the turf they're using as the culprit in these injuries. Penning, Thomas, and Harty all had TT injuries last year. Now Turner in Game 1. If other team fields are having the same issues, you know what the problem is.

As I mentioned earlier, the turf is brand new. I have also read that most of the blame on foot and toe injuries lies with the shoes being used by players today. Shoes are one of the few items that are left up to the discretion of the players. They are getting lighter and less supportive.

SmashMouth · 09-11-2023, 09:35 AM

Originally Posted by AsylumGuido

FYI. They completely replaced the playing surface this off-season.

Originally Posted by AsylumGuido

As I mentioned earlier, the turf is brand new. I have also read that most of the blame on foot and toe injuries lies with the shoes being used by players today. Shoes are one of the few items that are left up to the discretion of the players. They are getting lighter and less supportive.

As posted earlier, if surgery is required to fix it, it's a torn tendon/ligament. The shoe angle is a valid one. Also the physical make up of the player. If it were entirely the turf as the culprit, the entire team may be injured. Cameron Jordan has managed to not incur such an injury. What makes him so special?

MatthewT · 09-11-2023, 11:07 AM

Originally Posted by SmashMouth

As posted earlier, if surgery is required to fix it, it's a torn tendon/ligament. The shoe angle is a valid one. Also the physical make up of the player. If it were entirely the turf as the culprit, the entire team may be injured. Cameron Jordan has managed to not incur such an injury. What makes him so special?

From everything I've read, yes the rug itself was replaced as it is just about every year. To my understanding, they are still using the same type of slit film turf and that is what appears to be hurting the players at a higher rate.

Boston Saint · 09-11-2023, 12:36 PM

Originally Posted by MatthewT

To my understanding, they are still using the same type of slit film turf and that is what appears to be hurting the players at a higher rate.

Just curious Matthew, but do you know for a fact that the Saints players ARE being hurt for turf toe at a higher rate? What’s your source?

AsylumGuido · 09-11-2023, 12:44 PM

Originally Posted by Boston Saint

Just curious Matthew, but do you know for a fact that the Saints players ARE being hurt for turf toe at a higher rate? What’s your source?

I believe this article may refute that.

Return to Play Following High-Grade Turf Toe Injuries in National Football League AthletesBiomechanical Comparison of Arthroscopic SMC Knot Constructs

Turf toe is a common injury, particularly among high level football players.4 These injuries were first described in 1976 in collegiate football players at the University of West Virginia as a hyperextension injury to the plantar plate of the first metatarsophalangeal (MTP) joint. They noted an incidence of 5.4 turf toe injuries per season.1 A survey of 80 athletes in the National Football League (NFL) found that 45% had sustained turf toe injuries previously.2 This injury was originally described in athletes competing only on artificial surfaces, but a later study demonstrated that turf toe occurred equally among athletes participating on modern artificial turf and natural grass.3

Also this study:

Outcome of Turf Toe Injuries in NFL Players

This was a retrospective review to identify all NFL players who sustained a turf toe injury during the seasons 2011-2014. Players with first MTP capsular ligamentous complex injury were identified through a review of online resources including NFL injury reports, player registries, game summary sites, NFL news and the Fantasy Doctors database.

Seventy-one turf toe injuries were identified. Twenty-nine occurred on grass, 29 on turf and the playing surface of 13 injuries could not be identified.

MatthewT · 09-11-2023, 02:32 PM

Originally Posted by Boston Saint

Just curious Matthew, but do you know for a fact that the Saints players ARE being hurt for turf toe at a higher rate? What’s your source?

Of course I don't know anything for a fact, just going on things I've read in the past. We are NOT talking about all artificial surfaces, this is specific to a handful of teams using a specific type. This is just one reference, that speaks about "slit film" or "Turf Nation S5" if you prefer.

https://www.wwltv.com/article/sports...d-6e701a1f64db

AsylumGuido · 09-11-2023, 02:34 PM

Originally Posted by MatthewT

Of course I don't know anything for a fact, just going on things I've read in the past. We are NOT talking about all artificial surfaces, this is specific to a handful of teams using a specific type. This is just one reference, that speaks about "slit film" or "Turf Nation S5" if you prefer.

https://www.wwltv.com/article/sports...d-6e701a1f64db

According to this the field surface is of a different type than last year.

leilung · 09-11-2023, 02:35 PM

Originally Posted by Boston Saint

Just curious Matthew, but do you know for a fact that the Saints players ARE being hurt for turf toe at a higher rate? What’s your source?

Just FYI, because I'm a guy that follows the data, there's an interesting descrepancy with regard to the turf injury studies.

It seems that the studies conducted by the NFLPA indicated that there are significant increased chances for non-contact injuries on Turf vs. Grass. https://nflpa.com/posts/nfl-approach...surface-uneven

HOWEVER, in studies conducted by the League, it showed almost negligible differences in the the non-contact lower leg injuries sustained on either surface.

The players have generally stated a preference for grass surface fields, but the owners don't appear to be budging in their preference for both to be played on.

I could find no data collected on injuries due to player shoe preference. If you could share it Guido, I'd appreciate the extra layer of info.

Draw your own conclusions guys.

AsylumGuido likes this.

AsylumGuido · 09-11-2023, 02:45 PM

Originally Posted by leilung

Just FYI, because I'm a guy that follows the data, there's an interesting descrepancy with regard to the turf injury studies.

It seems that the studies conducted by the NFLPA indicated that there are significant increased chances for non-contact injuries on Turf vs. Grass. https://nflpa.com/posts/nfl-approach...surface-uneven

HOWEVER, in studies conducted by the League, it showed almost negligible differences in the the non-contact lower leg injuries sustained on either surface.

https://twitter.com/SeifertESPN/stat...47175874715648

The players have generally stated a preference for grass surface fields, but the owners don't appear to be budging in their preference for both to be played on.

I could find no data collected on injuries due to player shoe preference. If you could share it Guido, I'd appreciate the extra layer of info.

Draw your own conclusions guys.

These are just a drop in the bucket. There are dozens of different articles on this out there. They have been writing about the connection between these lighter weight shoes contribution to injuries for the past decade and a half, at least.

NFL Injuries & Improper Footwear

Turf-toe: a shoe-surface related football injury

Are Shoes Part Of The Problem With Football Injuries?

Discussing the slew of recent injuries in the NFL and the various theories about it, King noted that one of his sources cited the inadequacy of the football shoes, saying they were equivalent to wearing ballet shoes on the football field.

Super Bowl Shoes: Do Football Cleats Contribute to Injuries?

09-11-2023, 07:33 AM	#1
leilung Booty Bandit Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: The Wastelands that are NJ Posts: 1,425	Re: Observations from the Saints win vs Titans Originally Posted by SmashMouth If Turner needs surgery, it must be a torn ligament. It's kind of a bad luck injury. Agreed with you all, however, he needs to be available. Let's see what Lalos can bring in live bullets. At some point, the facilities team really needs to look at the turf they're using as the culprit in these injuries. Penning, Thomas, and Harty all had TT injuries last year. Now Turner in Game 1. If other team fields are having the same issues, you know what the problem is.

09-11-2023, 08:26 AM	#2
AsylumGuido 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Bossier City, LA Posts: 26,622	Re: Observations from the Saints win vs Titans Originally Posted by leilung At some point, the facilities team really needs to look at the turf they're using as the culprit in these injuries. Penning, Thomas, and Harty all had TT injuries last year. Now Turner in Game 1. If other team fields are having the same issues, you know what the problem is. As I mentioned earlier, the turf is brand new. I have also read that most of the blame on foot and toe injuries lies with the shoes being used by players today. Shoes are one of the few items that are left up to the discretion of the players. They are getting lighter and less supportive. Danno and SmashMouth like this.

09-11-2023, 09:35 AM	#3
SmashMouth I donated, did you? Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Mandeville, LA Posts: 38,761 Blog Entries: 29	Re: Observations from the Saints win vs Titans Originally Posted by AsylumGuido FYI. They completely replaced the playing surface this off-season. Originally Posted by AsylumGuido As I mentioned earlier, the turf is brand new. I have also read that most of the blame on foot and toe injuries lies with the shoes being used by players today. Shoes are one of the few items that are left up to the discretion of the players. They are getting lighter and less supportive. As posted earlier, if surgery is required to fix it, it's a torn tendon/ligament. The shoe angle is a valid one. Also the physical make up of the player. If it were entirely the turf as the culprit, the entire team may be injured. Cameron Jordan has managed to not incur such an injury. What makes him so special? MatthewT and WW_Who_Dat like this.

09-11-2023, 11:07 AM	#4
MatthewT 1000 Posts + Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Mississippi Posts: 2,729	Re: Observations from the Saints win vs Titans Originally Posted by SmashMouth As posted earlier, if surgery is required to fix it, it's a torn tendon/ligament. The shoe angle is a valid one. Also the physical make up of the player. If it were entirely the turf as the culprit, the entire team may be injured. Cameron Jordan has managed to not incur such an injury. What makes him so special? From everything I've read, yes the rug itself was replaced as it is just about every year. To my understanding, they are still using the same type of slit film turf and that is what appears to be hurting the players at a higher rate. Rugby Saint II likes this.

09-11-2023, 12:36 PM	#5
Boston Saint 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Nov 2020 Location: Massachusetts Posts: 5,137	Re: Observations from the Saints win vs Titans Originally Posted by MatthewT To my understanding, they are still using the same type of slit film turf and that is what appears to be hurting the players at a higher rate. Just curious Matthew, but do you know for a fact that the Saints players ARE being hurt for turf toe at a higher rate? What’s your source?

09-11-2023, 12:44 PM	#6
AsylumGuido 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Bossier City, LA Posts: 26,622	Re: Observations from the Saints win vs Titans Originally Posted by Boston Saint Just curious Matthew, but do you know for a fact that the Saints players ARE being hurt for turf toe at a higher rate? What’s your source? I believe this article may refute that. Return to Play Following High-Grade Turf Toe Injuries in National Football League AthletesBiomechanical Comparison of Arthroscopic SMC Knot Constructs Turf toe is a common injury, particularly among high level football players.4 These injuries were first described in 1976 in collegiate football players at the University of West Virginia as a hyperextension injury to the plantar plate of the first metatarsophalangeal (MTP) joint. They noted an incidence of 5.4 turf toe injuries per season.1 A survey of 80 athletes in the National Football League (NFL) found that 45% had sustained turf toe injuries previously.2 This injury was originally described in athletes competing only on artificial surfaces, but a later study demonstrated that turf toe occurred equally among athletes participating on modern artificial turf and natural grass.3 Also this study: Outcome of Turf Toe Injuries in NFL Players This was a retrospective review to identify all NFL players who sustained a turf toe injury during the seasons 2011-2014. Players with first MTP capsular ligamentous complex injury were identified through a review of online resources including NFL injury reports, player registries, game summary sites, NFL news and the Fantasy Doctors database. Seventy-one turf toe injuries were identified. Twenty-nine occurred on grass, 29 on turf and the playing surface of 13 injuries could not be identified. Crusader likes this.
	“The pessimist sees difficulty in every opportunity. The optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty.” — Winston Churchill

09-11-2023, 02:32 PM	#7
MatthewT 1000 Posts + Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Mississippi Posts: 2,729	Re: Observations from the Saints win vs Titans Originally Posted by Boston Saint Just curious Matthew, but do you know for a fact that the Saints players ARE being hurt for turf toe at a higher rate? What’s your source? Of course I don't know anything for a fact, just going on things I've read in the past. We are NOT talking about all artificial surfaces, this is specific to a handful of teams using a specific type. This is just one reference, that speaks about "slit film" or "Turf Nation S5" if you prefer. https://www.wwltv.com/article/sports...d-6e701a1f64db

09-11-2023, 02:34 PM	#8
AsylumGuido 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Bossier City, LA Posts: 26,622	Re: Observations from the Saints win vs Titans Originally Posted by MatthewT Of course I don't know anything for a fact, just going on things I've read in the past. We are NOT talking about all artificial surfaces, this is specific to a handful of teams using a specific type. This is just one reference, that speaks about "slit film" or "Turf Nation S5" if you prefer. https://www.wwltv.com/article/sports...d-6e701a1f64db According to this the field surface is of a different type than last year. Twitter

09-11-2023, 02:35 PM	#9
leilung Booty Bandit Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: The Wastelands that are NJ Posts: 1,425	Re: Observations from the Saints win vs Titans Originally Posted by Boston Saint Just curious Matthew, but do you know for a fact that the Saints players ARE being hurt for turf toe at a higher rate? What’s your source? Just FYI, because I'm a guy that follows the data, there's an interesting descrepancy with regard to the turf injury studies. It seems that the studies conducted by the NFLPA indicated that there are significant increased chances for non-contact injuries on Turf vs. Grass. https://nflpa.com/posts/nfl-approach...surface-uneven HOWEVER, in studies conducted by the League, it showed almost negligible differences in the the non-contact lower leg injuries sustained on either surface. Twitter The players have generally stated a preference for grass surface fields, but the owners don't appear to be budging in their preference for both to be played on. I could find no data collected on injuries due to player shoe preference. If you could share it Guido, I'd appreciate the extra layer of info. Draw your own conclusions guys. AsylumGuido likes this.
	A wise man once said, "Poo-poo smells just as bad as s#!%. One just SOUNDS cuter!"

09-11-2023, 02:45 PM	#10
AsylumGuido 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Bossier City, LA Posts: 26,622	Re: Observations from the Saints win vs Titans Originally Posted by leilung Just FYI, because I'm a guy that follows the data, there's an interesting descrepancy with regard to the turf injury studies. It seems that the studies conducted by the NFLPA indicated that there are significant increased chances for non-contact injuries on Turf vs. Grass. https://nflpa.com/posts/nfl-approach...surface-uneven HOWEVER, in studies conducted by the League, it showed almost negligible differences in the the non-contact lower leg injuries sustained on either surface. https://twitter.com/SeifertESPN/stat...47175874715648 The players have generally stated a preference for grass surface fields, but the owners don't appear to be budging in their preference for both to be played on. I could find no data collected on injuries due to player shoe preference. If you could share it Guido, I'd appreciate the extra layer of info. Draw your own conclusions guys. These are just a drop in the bucket. There are dozens of different articles on this out there. They have been writing about the connection between these lighter weight shoes contribution to injuries for the past decade and a half, at least. NFL Injuries & Improper Footwear Turf-toe: a shoe-surface related football injury Are Shoes Part Of The Problem With Football Injuries? Discussing the slew of recent injuries in the NFL and the various theories about it, King noted that one of his sources cited the inadequacy of the football shoes, saying they were equivalent to wearing ballet shoes on the football field. Super Bowl Shoes: Do Football Cleats Contribute to Injuries?
	“The pessimist sees difficulty in every opportunity. The optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty.” — Winston Churchill