Official 2024 Saints Draft Discussion

02-28-2024, 11:16 PM

Originally Posted by BakoSaint

There are some people on this forum who say all our members opinions are garbage and they would trust Mickey Loomis over all of us because he is a professional with untold expertise and resources. I guess that is my position with PFF. They watch every play 10x in slow motion or whatever and have a large staff developing a grading system. They are able to attract the respect of many experts and many subscribers. Their numbers, although not perfect, seem to align with what I see and be a better guide than optimistic fans. They have competed with other services and risen to the top. So while I think Mickey Loomis is a joke who lucked into his job and is sitting around all day golfing and chugging bottles of Beam, and others think he has a PhD in football, I guess I am on the the opposite side with pff and respect pff over random board members eyeball test. Clearly Bresee got a few sacks, but I think the low grades mean there are issues in other parts of his game. If he was a walking sack machine why wasn't he starting over low budget journeymen? How was he in run support? Did he blow assignments? For example, Bresee had 6 penalties as a backup vs 7 total penalties for all our other starting and backup dline combined. Call me back when his sack numbers at least exceed his penalties. To me, 4.5 sacks and 6 penalties sounds like a net loss. Hopefully he can clean up the penalties over time, but maybe when he does he gets less of a jump and gets less sacks too.

https://www.footballdb.com/stats/pen...?tm=20&yr=2023

Jalen Carter had a pff grade of 90 and is reguarded as one of the best rookies out of that class and had only 1.5 sacks more and one less penalty than Bresee. You made a valiant effort with your points, but I’m sticking to my opinion on this one

BakoSaint · 02-28-2024, 11:23 PM

Originally Posted by AsylumGuido

Looks like we're trading all our picks the next two years to go and get Daniels.

https://twitter.com/_RyanFowler_/sta...84873921859908

I don't think Daniels is realistic with the other moves we are making and our needs. We are already over the 2025 salary cap and moving on from Carr in 2025 would entail an about $50 million dead cap hit. We badly need oline to protect Carr or any other QB and pass rush to combine with our good secondary to make our defense work, and if we use our 1st round pick and other picks trading up to land Daniels, we can't use any of those picks on oline or pass rush this draft or even next draft.

So what would be the play here? Go into 2024 and 2025 with a QB controversy? Pay Taysom Hill $10 million to be the joker QB, Derek Carr $40 million to be the pocket QB, and spend two years of 1st round picks and more on Daniels who could be both in the future, but can't be either now unless we bench one of those highly paid guys? We would be spending more resources on the QB position than any team in the NFL while dividing those resources 3 ways and ignoring glaring weaknesses in the trenches for multiple years. And the same would likely continue in 2025 given our cap situation. Then maybe in 2026 if we made a lot of cap sacrifices we could eventually go through a 2 year rebuild to pay off the dead cap of cutting Carr and Hill in the 2026 offseasons and emerge able to start adding the oline and pass rush pieces to compete with Daniels from 2028-2029. Meanwhile if Daniels works out, we completely miss the ability to use his rookie contract years to our advantage? It makes no sense. Either rebuild and be able to purge Carr's salary at least by 2025 by not restructuring him this year (we already restructured him) or ride with Carr and take a QB with the early pick we get later if he crashes, or we lose a lot during a rebuild year after cutting him.

I don't even think Loomis or DA are seriously considering taking Daniels. What I think they are doing is PR. Keeping the fans interested. It was a rough season. The Saints were not fun to watch. LSU was. The idea of Daniels is the bread crumbs to tide fans over with excitement for a few months of the offseason while the reality of restructuring Carr, Ram, and a bunch of past their prime players with another year of DA as head coach sets in. We don't actually need to draft Daniels for speculation of a move to excite fans. It's like a celebrity dating rumor, it keeps our name in the news even if it has no basis in fact. It's free advertising for Mickey Loomis' Ford Pinto.

Meanwhile DA and Loomis may actually be thinking of trading up for a flashier oline or pass rusher to mortgage the future and win an extra game or two now to buy themselves an extra year. Another Marcus Davenport or Trevor Penning style hail mary to save their jobs. That might not be palatable to fans. But if they sell the idea of trading up with the shiny prospect of drafting fan favorite Daniels, even if its unrealistic, that will force many fans to accept the idea of the Saints trading up, and they can bait and switch the move to trade up for Daniels into trading up for their next Davenport. In reality we should stand pat and draft at our original position so that if we fail, there is an insurance policy in the form of a high 2025 draft pick so that our GM and HC job openings are actually attractive to candidates when they open up. Of course Loomis and DA would probably rather trade our future picks to make those jobs unattractive so that we will have to retain them because "who else can we get, we won't be high on anyone's list."

BakoSaint · 02-28-2024, 11:49 PM

Originally Posted by Mr.Riaton

Jalen Carter had a pff grade of 90 and is reguarded as one of the best rookies out of that class and had only 1.5 sacks more and one less penalty than Bresee. You made a valiant effort with your points, but I’m sticking to my opinion on this one

Agree to disagree. I think PFF are generally professionals and although they cannot factor in certain intangibles like how a player performs in clutch situations and the postseason, they are the best metric we have.

Carter also added two forces fumbles and a fumble recovery. Given that Carter is a heavier and more stout in stature, its not unreasonable to speculate that he may have been much better against the run, and the Saints regressed against the run this year. Meanwhile Carter also added a bit more sacks with a bit less penalties.

The Saints also played a historically easy schedule and the easiest part of the Saints schedule was the QBs, playing an incredible cast of D-list backup, lame duck, journeyman, and draft bust QBs. The particular weakness of the Saints super easy schedule was the offenses they faced, as many of their opponents had closer to average defenses. The Eagles schedule was more average all around. Bresee was essentially out there hunting minnows for his 4.5 sacks. Also, you can't sack the QB if a teammate does it first. That put Bresee in a foot race with a bunch of tortoises on our pass rush while Carter was in an olympic sprint with the Eagles defense. The folks at PFF actually watch all the plays multiple times in slow motion. They likely timed how fast Bresee actually got to the QB, and maybe they were not so impressed if he got to Tommy Devito in 10 seconds or got Baker Mayfield to hold the ball a little too long. Actually 4 of Bresee's 4.5 sacks were against Devito and Mayfield who earned a combined $5 million salary. You just can't judge an entire rookie season 5 plays and break out the anointing oil. To me, I have high hopes for Bresee, I see the potential, but the jury is still out. 4.5 sacks and a 45 PFF is not the second coming of Warren Sapp just yet.

When guys like Kamara and Lattimore tore it up with crazy PFF numbers their rookie year we believed it. We should not pick and choose and dismiss PFF when we don't like the number. Especially for a position like DT that does not rely on anyone throwing the the ball or blocking for them and is in a position to make their own luck by beating their man. Carter consistently beat his man. Bresee sacked Devito twice and Mayfield twice and stayed at a Holiday Inn Express.

AsylumGuido · 02-29-2024, 09:15 AM

Haters gonna hate.

Mr.Riaton · 02-29-2024, 09:45 AM

Originally Posted by BakoSaint

Agree to disagree. I think PFF are generally professionals and although they cannot factor in certain intangibles like how a player performs in clutch situations and the postseason, they are the best metric we have.

Carter also added two forces fumbles and a fumble recovery. Given that Carter is a heavier and more stout in stature, its not unreasonable to speculate that he may have been much better against the run, and the Saints regressed against the run this year. Meanwhile Carter also added a bit more sacks with a bit less penalties.

The Saints also played a historically easy schedule and the easiest part of the Saints schedule was the QBs, playing an incredible cast of D-list backup, lame duck, journeyman, and draft bust QBs. The particular weakness of the Saints super easy schedule was the offenses they faced, as many of their opponents had closer to average defenses. The Eagles schedule was more average all around. Bresee was essentially out there hunting minnows for his 4.5 sacks. Also, you can't sack the QB if a teammate does it first. That put Bresee in a foot race with a bunch of tortoises on our pass rush while Carter was in an olympic sprint with the Eagles defense. The folks at PFF actually watch all the plays multiple times in slow motion. They likely timed how fast Bresee actually got to the QB, and maybe they were not so impressed if he got to Tommy Devito in 10 seconds or got Baker Mayfield to hold the ball a little too long. Actually 4 of Bresee's 4.5 sacks were against Devito and Mayfield who earned a combined $5 million salary. You just can't judge an entire rookie season 5 plays and break out the anointing oil. To me, I have high hopes for Bresee, I see the potential, but the jury is still out. 4.5 sacks and a 45 PFF is not the second coming of Warren Sapp just yet.

When guys like Kamara and Lattimore tore it up with crazy PFF numbers their rookie year we believed it. We should not pick and choose and dismiss PFF when we don't like the number. Especially for a position like DT that does not rely on anyone throwing the the ball or blocking for them and is in a position to make their own luck by beating their man. Carter consistently beat his man. Bresee sacked Devito twice and Mayfield twice and stayed at a Holiday Inn Express.

You’re really splitting hairs here, but good news is theres something we both found common ground on, and that’s agree to disagree

K Major · 02-29-2024, 09:53 AM

Rd 1, Saints pick #14.

Olumuyiwa Fashanu, OL

Penn State

Hadn't allowed a sack in his 3-year college career and is only 21. We really need someone to solidify the tackle position for the next 7-10 years.
He's athletic (over 6'6" tall) & has superior pass protection qualities.

All Big 10, All Big Ten Academic

Maybe Kubiak moves Trevor Penning inside to guard?

AsylumGuido · 02-29-2024, 10:00 AM

"This might be nothing, but it could be something big for the New Orleans Saints going into the 2024 NFL draft. ESPN’s Mel Kiper Jr. kept a new trend going in his second mock draft of this year’s first round by projecting Penn State left tackle Olu Fashanu to fall to the Saints at No. 14."

Mr.Riaton · 02-29-2024, 10:05 AM

Originally Posted by K Major

Rd 1, Saints pick #14.

Olumuyiwa Fashanu, OL

Penn State

Hadn't allowed a sack in his 3-year college career and is only 21. We really need someone to solidify the tackle position for the next 7-10 years.
He's athletic (over 6'6" tall) & has superior pass protection qualities.

All Big 10, All Big Ten Academic

Maybe Kubiak moves Trevor Penning inside to guard?

I actually had that same thought about moving Penning to G. I wonder if he can thrive there

K Major · 02-29-2024, 12:17 PM

Originally Posted by saintsfan1976

Dallas Turner would be great.

Do we spend the capital to trade up?

Depends on free agency IMO

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/lzt38JXykGw

saintsfan1976 · 02-29-2024, 01:40 PM

Originally Posted by K Major

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/lzt38JXykGw

I think it's safe to say Turner is a top 10 talent who could fall especially if there's a run on QBs. I don't think anyone expects him to be there at 14 so yeah, it make sense we'd have to trade.

I'd hate to lose Lattimore but again, it depends on the return.

Imagine if we land another pick in the top 75 for Lattimore.

02-28-2024, 11:16 PM	#71
Threaded by Mr.Riaton 1000 Posts + Join Date: Mar 2013 Location: Broussard,La. Posts: 1,264 Rating: (0 votes - average) Originally Posted by BakoSaint There are some people on this forum who say all our members opinions are garbage and they would trust Mickey Loomis over all of us because he is a professional with untold expertise and resources. I guess that is my position with PFF. They watch every play 10x in slow motion or whatever and have a large staff developing a grading system. They are able to attract the respect of many experts and many subscribers. Their numbers, although not perfect, seem to align with what I see and be a better guide than optimistic fans. They have competed with other services and risen to the top. So while I think Mickey Loomis is a joke who lucked into his job and is sitting around all day golfing and chugging bottles of Beam, and others think he has a PhD in football, I guess I am on the the opposite side with pff and respect pff over random board members eyeball test. Clearly Bresee got a few sacks, but I think the low grades mean there are issues in other parts of his game. If he was a walking sack machine why wasn't he starting over low budget journeymen? How was he in run support? Did he blow assignments? For example, Bresee had 6 penalties as a backup vs 7 total penalties for all our other starting and backup dline combined. Call me back when his sack numbers at least exceed his penalties. To me, 4.5 sacks and 6 penalties sounds like a net loss. Hopefully he can clean up the penalties over time, but maybe when he does he gets less of a jump and gets less sacks too. https://www.footballdb.com/stats/pen...?tm=20&yr=2023 Jalen Carter had a pff grade of 90 and is reguarded as one of the best rookies out of that class and had only 1.5 sacks more and one less penalty than Bresee. You made a valiant effort with your points, but I’m sticking to my opinion on this one
Views: 12116

02-28-2024, 11:23 PM	#72
BakoSaint 1000 Posts + Join Date: Dec 2018 Posts: 2,134	Re: Official 2024 Saints Draft Discussion Originally Posted by AsylumGuido Looks like we're trading all our picks the next two years to go and get Daniels. https://twitter.com/_RyanFowler_/sta...84873921859908 I don't think Daniels is realistic with the other moves we are making and our needs. We are already over the 2025 salary cap and moving on from Carr in 2025 would entail an about $50 million dead cap hit. We badly need oline to protect Carr or any other QB and pass rush to combine with our good secondary to make our defense work, and if we use our 1st round pick and other picks trading up to land Daniels, we can't use any of those picks on oline or pass rush this draft or even next draft. So what would be the play here? Go into 2024 and 2025 with a QB controversy? Pay Taysom Hill $10 million to be the joker QB, Derek Carr $40 million to be the pocket QB, and spend two years of 1st round picks and more on Daniels who could be both in the future, but can't be either now unless we bench one of those highly paid guys? We would be spending more resources on the QB position than any team in the NFL while dividing those resources 3 ways and ignoring glaring weaknesses in the trenches for multiple years. And the same would likely continue in 2025 given our cap situation. Then maybe in 2026 if we made a lot of cap sacrifices we could eventually go through a 2 year rebuild to pay off the dead cap of cutting Carr and Hill in the 2026 offseasons and emerge able to start adding the oline and pass rush pieces to compete with Daniels from 2028-2029. Meanwhile if Daniels works out, we completely miss the ability to use his rookie contract years to our advantage? It makes no sense. Either rebuild and be able to purge Carr's salary at least by 2025 by not restructuring him this year (we already restructured him) or ride with Carr and take a QB with the early pick we get later if he crashes, or we lose a lot during a rebuild year after cutting him. I don't even think Loomis or DA are seriously considering taking Daniels. What I think they are doing is PR. Keeping the fans interested. It was a rough season. The Saints were not fun to watch. LSU was. The idea of Daniels is the bread crumbs to tide fans over with excitement for a few months of the offseason while the reality of restructuring Carr, Ram, and a bunch of past their prime players with another year of DA as head coach sets in. We don't actually need to draft Daniels for speculation of a move to excite fans. It's like a celebrity dating rumor, it keeps our name in the news even if it has no basis in fact. It's free advertising for Mickey Loomis' Ford Pinto. Meanwhile DA and Loomis may actually be thinking of trading up for a flashier oline or pass rusher to mortgage the future and win an extra game or two now to buy themselves an extra year. Another Marcus Davenport or Trevor Penning style hail mary to save their jobs. That might not be palatable to fans. But if they sell the idea of trading up with the shiny prospect of drafting fan favorite Daniels, even if its unrealistic, that will force many fans to accept the idea of the Saints trading up, and they can bait and switch the move to trade up for Daniels into trading up for their next Davenport. In reality we should stand pat and draft at our original position so that if we fail, there is an insurance policy in the form of a high 2025 draft pick so that our GM and HC job openings are actually attractive to candidates when they open up. Of course Loomis and DA would probably rather trade our future picks to make those jobs unattractive so that we will have to retain them because "who else can we get, we won't be high on anyone's list."
BakoSaint 1000 Posts + Join Date: Dec 2018 Posts: 2,134

02-28-2024, 11:49 PM	#73
BakoSaint 1000 Posts + Join Date: Dec 2018 Posts: 2,134	Re: Official 2024 Saints Draft Discussion Originally Posted by Mr.Riaton Jalen Carter had a pff grade of 90 and is reguarded as one of the best rookies out of that class and had only 1.5 sacks more and one less penalty than Bresee. You made a valiant effort with your points, but I’m sticking to my opinion on this one Agree to disagree. I think PFF are generally professionals and although they cannot factor in certain intangibles like how a player performs in clutch situations and the postseason, they are the best metric we have. Carter also added two forces fumbles and a fumble recovery. Given that Carter is a heavier and more stout in stature, its not unreasonable to speculate that he may have been much better against the run, and the Saints regressed against the run this year. Meanwhile Carter also added a bit more sacks with a bit less penalties. The Saints also played a historically easy schedule and the easiest part of the Saints schedule was the QBs, playing an incredible cast of D-list backup, lame duck, journeyman, and draft bust QBs. The particular weakness of the Saints super easy schedule was the offenses they faced, as many of their opponents had closer to average defenses. The Eagles schedule was more average all around. Bresee was essentially out there hunting minnows for his 4.5 sacks. Also, you can't sack the QB if a teammate does it first. That put Bresee in a foot race with a bunch of tortoises on our pass rush while Carter was in an olympic sprint with the Eagles defense. The folks at PFF actually watch all the plays multiple times in slow motion. They likely timed how fast Bresee actually got to the QB, and maybe they were not so impressed if he got to Tommy Devito in 10 seconds or got Baker Mayfield to hold the ball a little too long. Actually 4 of Bresee's 4.5 sacks were against Devito and Mayfield who earned a combined $5 million salary. You just can't judge an entire rookie season 5 plays and break out the anointing oil. To me, I have high hopes for Bresee, I see the potential, but the jury is still out. 4.5 sacks and a 45 PFF is not the second coming of Warren Sapp just yet. When guys like Kamara and Lattimore tore it up with crazy PFF numbers their rookie year we believed it. We should not pick and choose and dismiss PFF when we don't like the number. Especially for a position like DT that does not rely on anyone throwing the the ball or blocking for them and is in a position to make their own luck by beating their man. Carter consistently beat his man. Bresee sacked Devito twice and Mayfield twice and stayed at a Holiday Inn Express.
BakoSaint 1000 Posts + Join Date: Dec 2018 Posts: 2,134	Last edited by BakoSaint; 02-29-2024 at 01:30 AM..

02-29-2024, 09:15 AM	#74
AsylumGuido 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Bossier City, LA Posts: 26,210	Re: Official 2024 Saints Draft Discussion Haters gonna hate.

02-29-2024, 09:45 AM	#75
Mr.Riaton 1000 Posts + Join Date: Mar 2013 Location: Broussard,La. Posts: 1,264	Re: Official 2024 Saints Draft Discussion Originally Posted by BakoSaint Agree to disagree. I think PFF are generally professionals and although they cannot factor in certain intangibles like how a player performs in clutch situations and the postseason, they are the best metric we have. Carter also added two forces fumbles and a fumble recovery. Given that Carter is a heavier and more stout in stature, its not unreasonable to speculate that he may have been much better against the run, and the Saints regressed against the run this year. Meanwhile Carter also added a bit more sacks with a bit less penalties. The Saints also played a historically easy schedule and the easiest part of the Saints schedule was the QBs, playing an incredible cast of D-list backup, lame duck, journeyman, and draft bust QBs. The particular weakness of the Saints super easy schedule was the offenses they faced, as many of their opponents had closer to average defenses. The Eagles schedule was more average all around. Bresee was essentially out there hunting minnows for his 4.5 sacks. Also, you can't sack the QB if a teammate does it first. That put Bresee in a foot race with a bunch of tortoises on our pass rush while Carter was in an olympic sprint with the Eagles defense. The folks at PFF actually watch all the plays multiple times in slow motion. They likely timed how fast Bresee actually got to the QB, and maybe they were not so impressed if he got to Tommy Devito in 10 seconds or got Baker Mayfield to hold the ball a little too long. Actually 4 of Bresee's 4.5 sacks were against Devito and Mayfield who earned a combined $5 million salary. You just can't judge an entire rookie season 5 plays and break out the anointing oil. To me, I have high hopes for Bresee, I see the potential, but the jury is still out. 4.5 sacks and a 45 PFF is not the second coming of Warren Sapp just yet. When guys like Kamara and Lattimore tore it up with crazy PFF numbers their rookie year we believed it. We should not pick and choose and dismiss PFF when we don't like the number. Especially for a position like DT that does not rely on anyone throwing the the ball or blocking for them and is in a position to make their own luck by beating their man. Carter consistently beat his man. Bresee sacked Devito twice and Mayfield twice and stayed at a Holiday Inn Express. You’re really splitting hairs here, but good news is theres something we both found common ground on, and that’s agree to disagree K Major likes this.

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02-29-2024, 09:53 AM	#76
K Major Site Donor 2019 Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: Bedford, TX Posts: 24,619 Blog Entries: 3	Re: Official 2024 Saints Draft Discussion Rd 1, Saints pick #14. Olumuyiwa Fashanu, OL Penn State Hadn't allowed a sack in his 3-year college career and is only 21. We really need someone to solidify the tackle position for the next 7-10 years. He's athletic (over 6'6" tall) & has superior pass protection qualities. All Big 10, All Big Ten Academic Maybe Kubiak moves Trevor Penning inside to guard? saintsfan1976 likes this.

02-29-2024, 10:00 AM	#77
AsylumGuido 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Bossier City, LA Posts: 26,210	Re: Official 2024 Saints Draft Discussion Twitter "This might be nothing, but it could be something big for the New Orleans Saints going into the 2024 NFL draft. ESPN’s Mel Kiper Jr. kept a new trend going in his second mock draft of this year’s first round by projecting Penn State left tackle Olu Fashanu to fall to the Saints at No. 14."

02-29-2024, 10:05 AM	#78
Mr.Riaton 1000 Posts + Join Date: Mar 2013 Location: Broussard,La. Posts: 1,264	Re: Official 2024 Saints Draft Discussion Originally Posted by K Major Rd 1, Saints pick #14. Olumuyiwa Fashanu, OL Penn State Hadn't allowed a sack in his 3-year college career and is only 21. We really need someone to solidify the tackle position for the next 7-10 years. He's athletic (over 6'6" tall) & has superior pass protection qualities. All Big 10, All Big Ten Academic Maybe Kubiak moves Trevor Penning inside to guard? I actually had that same thought about moving Penning to G. I wonder if he can thrive there K Major likes this.

02-29-2024, 12:17 PM	#79
K Major Site Donor 2019 Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: Bedford, TX Posts: 24,619 Blog Entries: 3	Re: Official 2024 Saints Draft Discussion Originally Posted by saintsfan1976 Dallas Turner would be great. Do we spend the capital to trade up? Depends on free agency IMO https://www.youtube.com/shorts/lzt38JXykGw saintsfan1976 likes this.

02-29-2024, 01:40 PM	#80
saintsfan1976 10000 POST CLUB Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Atlanta Posts: 10,832 Blog Entries: 3	Re: Official 2024 Saints Draft Discussion Originally Posted by K Major https://www.youtube.com/shorts/lzt38JXykGw I think it's safe to say Turner is a top 10 talent who could fall especially if there's a run on QBs. I don't think anyone expects him to be there at 14 so yeah, it make sense we'd have to trade. I'd hate to lose Lattimore but again, it depends on the return. Imagine if we land another pick in the top 75 for Lattimore. K Major likes this.