Is Bryan Bresee a Liability despite Sacks?

BakoSaint · 10-01-2024, 09:02 PM

To put things in perspective, Calais Campbell is 38 years old and playing DT this year. He has 50 less snaps than Bresee this year. On the season Campbell has 10 non-sack tackles including 2 for a loss, half of each coming in the last game, and I watched him stuff a run behind the line of scrimmage last night. Bresee has 1 and 0 on the season.

I looked into Bresee's past game logs and play by plays and of his 3 career tackles for a loss of a running back, two were in the final 3 minutes of the 4th quarter with the opponent ahead, running down the clock as their primary objective. The last on and only time Bresee tackled a running back for a loss outside the final minutes of the game was 1 year ago, on 10/1/2023.

This play is at 22 seconds in the highlight video below. It looks like a missed blocking assignment as Bresee gets straight through with no block and no apparent move, just runs in a straight line.

Bryan Bresee 2023 NFL Season Highlights \| New Orleans Saints - YouTube

Bresee is a big tall guy, but at DT he is kind of this big lumbering tall guy with a high center of gravity and no push trying to spin and grab for sacks. We need a bulldozer. We have a crane. It seems like most of his sacks are where he is in the right time at the right place and can happen to grab the QB or a lane opens up straight to the QB with no blockers.

If you compare to highlights for Jason Carter, a player we could have had if we didnt trade our pick to Philly, Carter plays a lot more like a bulldozer. He impacts the line of scrimmage. He pushes blockers aside or goes through them. He hits with his body not just his arms. He imposes fear. Bresee seems to dance with the oline, throwing his hands in the air like he just dont care in hopes of batting a pass, until a straight line to the QB opens up or somebody runs near him that he can try to grab.

Jalen Carter Top Plays of the 2023 Season - YouTube

hitta · 10-03-2024, 07:51 AM

I've never been a huge fan, even when he was drafted. Honestly, he's turned out better than I expected, but I still think he's a flawed player.

Danno · 10-03-2024, 07:58 AM

Originally Posted by hitta

I've never been a huge fan, even when he was drafted. Honestly, he's turned out better than I expected, but I still think he's a flawed player.

My thoughts as well. He's a situational DT.

SmashMouth · 10-03-2024, 09:46 AM

Originally Posted by hitta

I've never been a huge fan, even when he was drafted. Honestly, he's turned out better than I expected, but I still think he's a flawed player.

Originally Posted by Danno

My thoughts as well. He's a situational DT.

Certainly a better draft pick than WTFoskey... Or Peyton Turner.

K Major · 10-03-2024, 10:08 AM

Originally Posted by SmashMouth

Certainly a better draft pick than WTFoskey... Or Peyton Turner.

Should we blame Sean Payton for the Peyton Turner selection

?

BakoSaint · 10-03-2024, 10:34 AM

Originally Posted by SmashMouth

Certainly a better draft pick than WTFoskey... Or Peyton Turner.

I don't necessarily agree.

Bryan Bresee's PFF scores for 23 and 24 are 45.5 and 36.7.

Foskey's are 62.2 and 61.4. Foskey may not have the sacks but when he is on the field he does try to tackle runners. Like I say we could consider moving Foskey to DT where he would cover the traditional responsibilities of one better than Bresee.

Turner's pff scores go back to 2021 and are 64.6, 69.6, 60.5, and 72.5 but obviously Turner has been hurt a lot. When healthy, he is clearly better than Breseee.

Neither Foskey nor Turner have ever had a season pff score within a full grade of being as low as Bresee's best score. I know some people discount those scores but I think they mean something. I think when people review the tape they see Bresee almost never impacting the run game, and that a large portion of his sacks are more related to other pass rushers driving the QB toward Bresee, who never beat his own man, but then can just reach and bring down the QB, or disengage from the oline and get to the qb behind or beside him. And yet still Bresee misses many of these opportunities.

If Penning can go from looking bad and barely playing many games to being a seemingly competent starter at times in year 3, maybe Foskey can too, who knows. And maybe Turner can overcome injuries though I would never trust him with a big contract. Bresee needs to overcome arm tackling, not impacting the line of scrimmage, and ignoring the run game.

SmashMouth · 10-03-2024, 06:09 PM

Originally Posted by BakoSaint

I don't necessarily agree.

Bryan Bresee's PFF scores for 23 and 24 are 45.5 and 36.7.

Foskey's are 62.2 and 61.4. Foskey may not have the sacks but when he is on the field he does try to tackle runners. Like I say we could consider moving Foskey to DT where he would cover the traditional responsibilities of one better than Bresee.

Turner's pff scores go back to 2021 and are 64.6, 69.6, 60.5, and 72.5 but obviously Turner has been hurt a lot. When healthy, he is clearly better than Breseee.

Neither Foskey nor Turner have ever had a season pff score within a full grade of being as low as Bresee's best score. I know some people discount those scores but I think they mean something. I think when people review the tape they see Bresee almost never impacting the run game, and that a large portion of his sacks are more related to other pass rushers driving the QB toward Bresee, who never beat his own man, but then can just reach and bring down the QB, or disengage from the oline and get to the qb behind or beside him. And yet still Bresee misses many of these opportunities.

If Penning can go from looking bad and barely playing many games to being a seemingly competent starter at times in year 3, maybe Foskey can too, who knows. And maybe Turner can overcome injuries though I would never trust him with a big contract. Bresee needs to overcome arm tackling, not impacting the line of scrimmage, and ignoring the run game.

What about your salary cap angle?

BakoSaint · 10-04-2024, 12:12 AM

Originally Posted by SmashMouth

What about your salary cap angle?

None of them affect the cap much. Turner will be a free agent but based on his history he might be less expensive next year if we keep him on a 1 year deal.

BakoSaint · 10-19-2024, 09:24 PM

After 7 games, Bryan Bresee still has a pff rating of 36.7 which is poor to very poor.

This is an interesting piece under pff.com/grades that likely explains Bresee's score too:

"Not all sacks are created equal. Beasley sacked the quarterback 16 times, but eight of those sixteen were either unblocked or clean-up sacks that owed more to somebody else flushing the quarterback towards where Beasley was than they did to him beating a blocker to make the play. PFF grading takes into account the quality of the play made to get the sack, and excellent plays to defeat blocks will be graded higher than sacks where the quarterback just happened to be flushed past a player as he was being blocked only to get taken down."

Bresee still does not have a tackle for a loss against a RB this season.

Bresee is currently the second lowest ranked player on the Saints entire roster in PFF scores. Only Johnathan Abram at 35.1 is slightly worse. Foskey is better. All the oline are better. Khristian Boyd, John Ridgeway, and Kendal Vickers are all over a full grade better. Cam Jordan could lose 15 pounds and be a more effective DT with 0 sacks.

Either Bresee should be a weekly inactive to shore up our running game, or we should look to pawn him off on another team that only looks at his sack stats for a 3rd round pick or so. He is a much worse pick than Turner or Davenport and at this point does not belong in the NFL because he cant defend the run.

SmashMouth · 10-20-2024, 11:26 AM

At this point, we must be fair and blame DA for the failures. Isn't the the DC also? Bresee is a good player. Saints need an infusion of new leadership, not just players.

10-03-2024, 07:51 AM	#12
hitta 1000 Posts + Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 1,320	Re: Is Bryan Bresee a Liability despite Sacks? I've never been a huge fan, even when he was drafted. Honestly, he's turned out better than I expected, but I still think he's a flawed player. Danno likes this.
hitta 1000 Posts + Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 1,320

10-03-2024, 07:58 AM	#13
Danno Truth Addict Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Spanish Fort, AL (via NO and B/R) Posts: 24,720	Re: Is Bryan Bresee a Liability despite Sacks? Originally Posted by hitta I've never been a huge fan, even when he was drafted. Honestly, he's turned out better than I expected, but I still think he's a flawed player. My thoughts as well. He's a situational DT.

10-03-2024, 09:46 AM	#14
SmashMouth I donated, did you? Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Mandeville, LA Posts: 38,123 Blog Entries: 29	Re: Is Bryan Bresee a Liability despite Sacks? Originally Posted by hitta I've never been a huge fan, even when he was drafted. Honestly, he's turned out better than I expected, but I still think he's a flawed player. Originally Posted by Danno My thoughts as well. He's a situational DT. Certainly a better draft pick than WTFoskey... Or Peyton Turner.

10-03-2024, 10:08 AM	#15
K Major Site Donor 2019 Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: Bedford, TX Posts: 24,619 Blog Entries: 3	Re: Is Bryan Bresee a Liability despite Sacks? Originally Posted by SmashMouth Certainly a better draft pick than WTFoskey... Or Peyton Turner. Should we blame Sean Payton for the Peyton Turner selection ? SmashMouth likes this.

10-03-2024, 10:34 AM	#16
BakoSaint 1000 Posts + Join Date: Dec 2018 Posts: 2,134	Re: Is Bryan Bresee a Liability despite Sacks? Originally Posted by SmashMouth Certainly a better draft pick than WTFoskey... Or Peyton Turner. I don't necessarily agree. Bryan Bresee's PFF scores for 23 and 24 are 45.5 and 36.7. Foskey's are 62.2 and 61.4. Foskey may not have the sacks but when he is on the field he does try to tackle runners. Like I say we could consider moving Foskey to DT where he would cover the traditional responsibilities of one better than Bresee. Turner's pff scores go back to 2021 and are 64.6, 69.6, 60.5, and 72.5 but obviously Turner has been hurt a lot. When healthy, he is clearly better than Breseee. Neither Foskey nor Turner have ever had a season pff score within a full grade of being as low as Bresee's best score. I know some people discount those scores but I think they mean something. I think when people review the tape they see Bresee almost never impacting the run game, and that a large portion of his sacks are more related to other pass rushers driving the QB toward Bresee, who never beat his own man, but then can just reach and bring down the QB, or disengage from the oline and get to the qb behind or beside him. And yet still Bresee misses many of these opportunities. If Penning can go from looking bad and barely playing many games to being a seemingly competent starter at times in year 3, maybe Foskey can too, who knows. And maybe Turner can overcome injuries though I would never trust him with a big contract. Bresee needs to overcome arm tackling, not impacting the line of scrimmage, and ignoring the run game.
BakoSaint 1000 Posts + Join Date: Dec 2018 Posts: 2,134

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10-03-2024, 06:09 PM	#17
SmashMouth I donated, did you? Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Mandeville, LA Posts: 38,123 Blog Entries: 29	Re: Is Bryan Bresee a Liability despite Sacks? Originally Posted by BakoSaint I don't necessarily agree. Bryan Bresee's PFF scores for 23 and 24 are 45.5 and 36.7. Foskey's are 62.2 and 61.4. Foskey may not have the sacks but when he is on the field he does try to tackle runners. Like I say we could consider moving Foskey to DT where he would cover the traditional responsibilities of one better than Bresee. Turner's pff scores go back to 2021 and are 64.6, 69.6, 60.5, and 72.5 but obviously Turner has been hurt a lot. When healthy, he is clearly better than Breseee. Neither Foskey nor Turner have ever had a season pff score within a full grade of being as low as Bresee's best score. I know some people discount those scores but I think they mean something. I think when people review the tape they see Bresee almost never impacting the run game, and that a large portion of his sacks are more related to other pass rushers driving the QB toward Bresee, who never beat his own man, but then can just reach and bring down the QB, or disengage from the oline and get to the qb behind or beside him. And yet still Bresee misses many of these opportunities. If Penning can go from looking bad and barely playing many games to being a seemingly competent starter at times in year 3, maybe Foskey can too, who knows. And maybe Turner can overcome injuries though I would never trust him with a big contract. Bresee needs to overcome arm tackling, not impacting the line of scrimmage, and ignoring the run game. What about your salary cap angle?

10-04-2024, 12:12 AM	#18
BakoSaint 1000 Posts + Join Date: Dec 2018 Posts: 2,134	Re: Is Bryan Bresee a Liability despite Sacks? Originally Posted by SmashMouth What about your salary cap angle? None of them affect the cap much. Turner will be a free agent but based on his history he might be less expensive next year if we keep him on a 1 year deal.
BakoSaint 1000 Posts + Join Date: Dec 2018 Posts: 2,134

10-19-2024, 09:24 PM	#19
BakoSaint 1000 Posts + Join Date: Dec 2018 Posts: 2,134	Re: Is Bryan Bresee a Liability despite Sacks? After 7 games, Bryan Bresee still has a pff rating of 36.7 which is poor to very poor. This is an interesting piece under pff.com/grades that likely explains Bresee's score too: "Not all sacks are created equal. Beasley sacked the quarterback 16 times, but eight of those sixteen were either unblocked or clean-up sacks that owed more to somebody else flushing the quarterback towards where Beasley was than they did to him beating a blocker to make the play. PFF grading takes into account the quality of the play made to get the sack, and excellent plays to defeat blocks will be graded higher than sacks where the quarterback just happened to be flushed past a player as he was being blocked only to get taken down." Bresee still does not have a tackle for a loss against a RB this season. Bresee is currently the second lowest ranked player on the Saints entire roster in PFF scores. Only Johnathan Abram at 35.1 is slightly worse. Foskey is better. All the oline are better. Khristian Boyd, John Ridgeway, and Kendal Vickers are all over a full grade better. Cam Jordan could lose 15 pounds and be a more effective DT with 0 sacks. Either Bresee should be a weekly inactive to shore up our running game, or we should look to pawn him off on another team that only looks at his sack stats for a 3rd round pick or so. He is a much worse pick than Turner or Davenport and at this point does not belong in the NFL because he cant defend the run.
BakoSaint 1000 Posts + Join Date: Dec 2018 Posts: 2,134

10-20-2024, 11:26 AM	#20
SmashMouth I donated, did you? Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Mandeville, LA Posts: 38,123 Blog Entries: 29	Re: Is Bryan Bresee a Liability despite Sacks? At this point, we must be fair and blame DA for the failures. Isn't the the DC also? Bresee is a good player. Saints need an infusion of new leadership, not just players. Rugby Saint II likes this.