Saints Trading Stallworth?!?!

saintswhodi · 04-03-2006, 02:19 PM

And blaming his catching woes on AB is the same thing those Raiders fans are doing....blaming AB's throwing woes on Stallworth, and the o-liine, and the coaches. Yeah it's partially AB's fautl but everyone of us here knows that Stallworth has probably the worst hands on the team, along with Henderson.

That's bull. Anyone who has watched the Saints for any period of time knows AB threw one of the most uncatchable balls ever when he was off. On the opposite end, in the Rams game this year, Donte made a catch off the top of his shoe strings running top speed towards the sideline on a pass that wasn't thrown at bullet train speed. Also, you could plainly SEE his breakaway speed in his first two years when he wasn't injured, when he caught slant passes that allowed him to stay upright and make a play. The last two years when he has been healtthy, the slant pass has consisted of him diving in the dirt with no chance to run. Please.

As far as your underestimating his value, Donte put up better numbers than Lloyd across the board, easily. In 45 games played, Lloyd has 13 TDs. In 56 played, Donte has 23. Plays over 20 yards in the same amount of games? Lloyd has 20, Donte has 46. So lloyd avergaes .29 TD a game, Donte .42. Lloyd averages .44 plays of over 20 yards per game, Donte averages .82. And this is WITH Donte missing huge parts of his first two years. It's not even close, and Lloyd got a third round pick, AND a fourth next year. So damn right Donte is worth at least a second. He is only getting better. Lloyd has never done ANYTHING and drew a 3rd and a 4th. Ridiculous.

GoldRush26 · 04-03-2006, 03:11 PM

Originally Posted by saintswhodi

And blaming his catching woes on AB is the same thing those Raiders fans are doing....blaming AB's throwing woes on Stallworth, and the o-liine, and the coaches. Yeah it's partially AB's fautl but everyone of us here knows that Stallworth has probably the worst hands on the team, along with Henderson.

That's bull. Anyone who has watched the Saints for any period of time knows AB threw one of the most uncatchable balls ever when he was off. On the opposite end, in the Rams game this year, Donte made a catch off the top of his shoe strings running top speed towards the sideline on a pass that wasn't thrown at bullet train speed. Also, you could plainly SEE his breakaway speed in his first two years when he wasn't injured, when he caught slant passes that allowed him to stay upright and make a play. The last two years when he has been healtthy, the slant pass has consisted of him diving in the dirt with no chance to run. Please.

As far as your underestimating his value, Donte put up better numbers than Lloyd across the board, easily. In 45 games played, Lloyd has 13 TDs. In 56 played, Donte has 23. Plays over 20 yards in the same amount of games? Lloyd has 20, Donte has 46. So lloyd avergaes .29 TD a game, Donte .42. Lloyd averages .44 plays of over 20 yards per game, Donte averages .82. And this is WITH Donte missing huge parts of his first two years. It's not even close, and Lloyd got a third round pick, AND a fourth next year. So damn right Donte is worth at least a second. He is only getting better. Lloyd has never done ANYTHING and drew a 3rd and a 4th. Ridiculous.

Ok some of these stats aren't making any sense.

You are saying that you compared the stats over the same number of games, then you said that in 45 games played Lloyd has 13 TDs and Donte in 56 games has 23???????? OK i had to stop right there. In their first 3 seasons Donte had 16 TDs and Lloyd had 13. You're twisting it. All of a sudden that's undoubtedly worth a second????? Plus it was the Redskins that signed him, who are notorious for overpaying for everything. So when it comes down to it, Brandon Lloyd isn't worth a 3rd and a 4th. On the same token, Stallworth still isn't worth a second rounder.....except maybe to the Redskins. You can't gauge Stallworth's going rate in the NFL trade market by Dan Snyder's standards. He hasn't proven he knows a whole lot about football.

Plus I still don't buy that AB throwing totally uncatchable balls. Joe Horn had many more thrown to him and still dropped less over the past 5 or so years. As much as I ahbor AB, I'm not going to put it all in his lap. Simply looking at the dropped passes stat isn't enough. It's the kind of passes that he dropped that get me, and you know it.

saintswhodi · 04-03-2006, 03:18 PM

Um, I said over the same number of games, which I mentioned prior to that. I then averaged out each player's rate PER THE GAMES EACH HAD PLAYED. So in the same # of games, i.e. the 45 I had mentioned for Lloyd and the 56 for Stallworth. It's not hard.

I also found an interesting article on ESPN about trading WRs:

It all began, innocuously enough, on March 5, 2004, when the Tennessee Titans shipped Justin McCareins to the New York Jets for a second-round draft choice.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/column...1&lid=tab1pos2

The Jets gave a second for McCareins? Are the Jets known for overpaying for players? This is when they had Herm Edwards, so i'd say no. So please, spare me the Donte couldn't get a second nonsense.

And if you wanna think AB had nothing to do with uncatchable balls, so be it. You must have been watching different games than what his career under 60% completion percentage would suggest.

GoldRush26 · 04-03-2006, 03:54 PM

Originally Posted by saintswhodi

Um, I said over the same number of games, which I mentioned prior to that. I then averaged out each player's rate PER THE GAMES EACH HAD PLAYED. So in the same # of games, i.e. the 45 I had mentioned for Lloyd and the 56 for Stallworth. It's not hard.

I also found an interesting article on ESPN about trading WRs:

It all began, innocuously enough, on March 5, 2004, when the Tennessee Titans shipped Justin McCareins to the New York Jets for a second-round draft choice.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/column...1&lid=tab1pos2

The Jets gave a second for McCareins? Are the Jets known for overpaying for players? This is when they had Herm Edwards, so i'd say no. So please, spare me the Donte couldn't get a second nonsense.

And if you wanna think AB had nothing to do with uncatchable balls, so be it. You must have been watching different games than what his career under 60% completion percentage would suggest.

LOL....all of that "averaging out" is unnecessary. It's all just overanalyzing. You just look at the stats for what they are. In 3 seasons Donte had 16 TDs and Lloyd had 13. That's it. It's an unfair comparison in the first place since one player has 3 years in the league and the other has 4. But over the 3 year stretch there is no evidence that Stallworth is far and away Lloyd's superior. And Stallworth doesn't get extra consideration because he was injured a lot of that time. That's lost production which would be a red flag to me if I were an NFL GM. Results are all that matter.

Umm ok where did I say AB had nothing to do with uncatchable balls. hmmmm i must've missed it.....while you're finding where in my post i ever said that, why don't you address the fact that Joe Horn had the same kind of throws, and a lot more of them at that, that Stallworth had to get thrown at him yet still put up Pro Bowl numbers. I guess you're going to say that AB gave Horn more catchable balls. I hate that i'm being put in a spot to defend Aaron Brooks in a sense, but there's no way I'll believe that it's totally or even mostly Brooks' fault that Stallworth dropped passes. Brooks threw some pretty horrible balls behind, above, and beyond the recievers a lot of the time. However, dropped passes means the ball touched your hands and you had a reasonable shot at catching it but didn't, like errors in baseball. And if you think dropped balls are no big deal, then you're sadly mistaken because in the NFL dropped balls kill drives.

deucerulez · 04-03-2006, 04:09 PM

Goldrush I agree with you 100% on the catchable ball deal, not to defend you know who...it hits you in the hands you get paid to catch it....My question for horn stallworth and the boyz I mentioned in another post is what's the excuse for dropped passes this year, different spin on the ball?? We shall see I guess

GoldRush26 · 04-03-2006, 04:11 PM

Originally Posted by saintswhodi

He drops too many:

Donte "dropped" 11 balls. Like to see what hey define as catchable but anyway, Plaxico burress and Muhsin Muhammed dropped the same amount. I wonder if they should get traded. Very close to Donte was Eddie Kennison, Antonio Gates, Chad Johnson and Chris Chambers. Are those guys getting traded? Don't think so. Drops=no big deal. A better QB will fix that.

I just re-read this. We aren't seriously comparing Donte Stallworth to Buress, Muhammed, Antonio Gates, Chad Johnson and Chris Chambers, are we??? Eddie Kennison is the only one I would say is comparable to Stallworth, and yeah I wouldn't be surprised one bit if he got traded. He wouldn't be getting a second rounder, that's for sure. Same rap with him....a blazer with questionable hands. Drops=no big deal???? i can't believe u said that. I guess all of his catches were a total credit to him and all of his drops were Brooks fault.

saintswhodi · 04-03-2006, 04:13 PM

LOL....all of that "averaging out" is unnecessary.

Um, averaging out is the only way to get a clear picture of two guys who have played a different amount of games. I can take ANY 2 or three season stretch and make the numbers say what I want. But you can't hide averages. So that's what I did. I noticed you didn't say anything about that 2nd for McCareins though. Stallworth is clearly better than Lloyd. The averages prove it. But if i was arguing your side, I would try to make the stats as vague as possible too.

Next, Horn and Stallworth are TWO DIFFERENT RECEIVERS. Joe Horn is more of a possession type, big catch receiver, although he led the team in drops last year. Stallworth is a BURNER, who is learning more possession type skills. Who has been catching AB's passe slonger, the vet Horn, who came to the Saints at age 28 in 1999, or the young player Stallworth, who came two years later and has battled injuries his first two years? Is this even a serious comparison? Can't be.

And if you think dropped balls are no big deal, then you're sadly mistaken because in the NFL dropped balls kill drives.

So do bad passes, INTs, and fumbles. And now we are gonna get into WHEN dropped passes happen? Are you gonna analyze it for Chad Johnson, Antonio Gates, Plax Burress, Muhsin Muhammed, and Chris Chambers too? Even GREAT receivers drop balls. It happens. It's not always their fault though. If they go by what you say and any ball that touches your hands in catchable, it's understandable why Stallworth has a high number, cause that's BS. If you're running across the field at top speed to avoid a LB, and the QB throws it behind you like a rocket, and you reach back and get a hand on it, should you catch that? Is it the receivers' fault if he doesn't? Is that a "reasonable" shot? Please.

saintswhodi · 04-03-2006, 04:14 PM

Originally Posted by GoldRush26

Originally Posted by saintswhodi

He drops too many:

Donte "dropped" 11 balls. Like to see what hey define as catchable but anyway, Plaxico burress and Muhsin Muhammed dropped the same amount. I wonder if they should get traded. Very close to Donte was Eddie Kennison, Antonio Gates, Chad Johnson and Chris Chambers. Are those guys getting traded? Don't think so. Drops=no big deal. A better QB will fix that.

I just re-read this. We aren't seriously comparing Donte Stallworth to Buress, Muhammed, Antonio Gates, Chad Johnson and Chris Chambers, are we??? Eddie Kennison is the only one I would say is comparable to Stallworth, and yeah I wouldn't be surprised one bit if he got traded. He wouldn't be getting a second rounder, that's for sure. Same rap with him....a blazer with questionable hands. Drops=no big deal???? i can't believe u said that. I guess all of his catches were a total credit to him and all of his drops were Brooks fault.

did I compare those players, or the dropped passes stat for those players to Donte? Might wanna read back.

saintswhodi · 04-03-2006, 04:20 PM

I think I see where papz was coming from:

Nevermind I'll stop here... I'm enjoy my vodka and leave you be. Going to take the BonB approach on this one. I can go on forever and you will still not understand my point of view.

Outside of the Vodka, I am gonna take this same approach.

AllSaints · 04-03-2006, 04:46 PM

Ok trading Stallworth would be stupid, He is coming off his best year and is getting better every season.... Get a new Qb in town that is a heckuva lot better than Brooks and trade him.... I really think Stallworth and Brees will be hooking up this year in the endzone alot...... more than horn.......... I just dont see why we trade Stallworth i am just starting to like the guy........

04-03-2006, 03:11 PM	#62
GoldRush26 500th Post Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 594	Originally Posted by saintswhodi And blaming his catching woes on AB is the same thing those Raiders fans are doing....blaming AB's throwing woes on Stallworth, and the o-liine, and the coaches. Yeah it's partially AB's fautl but everyone of us here knows that Stallworth has probably the worst hands on the team, along with Henderson. That's bull. Anyone who has watched the Saints for any period of time knows AB threw one of the most uncatchable balls ever when he was off. On the opposite end, in the Rams game this year, Donte made a catch off the top of his shoe strings running top speed towards the sideline on a pass that wasn't thrown at bullet train speed. Also, you could plainly SEE his breakaway speed in his first two years when he wasn't injured, when he caught slant passes that allowed him to stay upright and make a play. The last two years when he has been healtthy, the slant pass has consisted of him diving in the dirt with no chance to run. Please. As far as your underestimating his value, Donte put up better numbers than Lloyd across the board, easily. In 45 games played, Lloyd has 13 TDs. In 56 played, Donte has 23. Plays over 20 yards in the same amount of games? Lloyd has 20, Donte has 46. So lloyd avergaes .29 TD a game, Donte .42. Lloyd averages .44 plays of over 20 yards per game, Donte averages .82. And this is WITH Donte missing huge parts of his first two years. It's not even close, and Lloyd got a third round pick, AND a fourth next year. So damn right Donte is worth at least a second. He is only getting better. Lloyd has never done ANYTHING and drew a 3rd and a 4th. Ridiculous. Ok some of these stats aren't making any sense. You are saying that you compared the stats over the same number of games, then you said that in 45 games played Lloyd has 13 TDs and Donte in 56 games has 23???????? OK i had to stop right there. In their first 3 seasons Donte had 16 TDs and Lloyd had 13. You're twisting it. All of a sudden that's undoubtedly worth a second????? Plus it was the Redskins that signed him, who are notorious for overpaying for everything. So when it comes down to it, Brandon Lloyd isn't worth a 3rd and a 4th. On the same token, Stallworth still isn't worth a second rounder.....except maybe to the Redskins. You can't gauge Stallworth's going rate in the NFL trade market by Dan Snyder's standards. He hasn't proven he knows a whole lot about football. Plus I still don't buy that AB throwing totally uncatchable balls. Joe Horn had many more thrown to him and still dropped less over the past 5 or so years. As much as I ahbor AB, I'm not going to put it all in his lap. Simply looking at the dropped passes stat isn't enough. It's the kind of passes that he dropped that get me, and you know it.
GoldRush26 500th Post Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 594

04-03-2006, 03:18 PM	#63
saintswhodi 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: San Antonio, TX Posts: 6,941	Um, I said over the same number of games, which I mentioned prior to that. I then averaged out each player's rate PER THE GAMES EACH HAD PLAYED. So in the same # of games, i.e. the 45 I had mentioned for Lloyd and the 56 for Stallworth. It's not hard. I also found an interesting article on ESPN about trading WRs: It all began, innocuously enough, on March 5, 2004, when the Tennessee Titans shipped Justin McCareins to the New York Jets for a second-round draft choice. http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/column...1&lid=tab1pos2 The Jets gave a second for McCareins? Are the Jets known for overpaying for players? This is when they had Herm Edwards, so i'd say no. So please, spare me the Donte couldn't get a second nonsense. And if you wanna think AB had nothing to do with uncatchable balls, so be it. You must have been watching different games than what his career under 60% completion percentage would suggest.

04-03-2006, 03:54 PM	#64
GoldRush26 500th Post Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 594	Originally Posted by saintswhodi Um, I said over the same number of games, which I mentioned prior to that. I then averaged out each player's rate PER THE GAMES EACH HAD PLAYED. So in the same # of games, i.e. the 45 I had mentioned for Lloyd and the 56 for Stallworth. It's not hard. I also found an interesting article on ESPN about trading WRs: It all began, innocuously enough, on March 5, 2004, when the Tennessee Titans shipped Justin McCareins to the New York Jets for a second-round draft choice. http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/column...1&lid=tab1pos2 The Jets gave a second for McCareins? Are the Jets known for overpaying for players? This is when they had Herm Edwards, so i'd say no. So please, spare me the Donte couldn't get a second nonsense. And if you wanna think AB had nothing to do with uncatchable balls, so be it. You must have been watching different games than what his career under 60% completion percentage would suggest. LOL....all of that "averaging out" is unnecessary. It's all just overanalyzing. You just look at the stats for what they are. In 3 seasons Donte had 16 TDs and Lloyd had 13. That's it. It's an unfair comparison in the first place since one player has 3 years in the league and the other has 4. But over the 3 year stretch there is no evidence that Stallworth is far and away Lloyd's superior. And Stallworth doesn't get extra consideration because he was injured a lot of that time. That's lost production which would be a red flag to me if I were an NFL GM. Results are all that matter. Umm ok where did I say AB had nothing to do with uncatchable balls. hmmmm i must've missed it.....while you're finding where in my post i ever said that, why don't you address the fact that Joe Horn had the same kind of throws, and a lot more of them at that, that Stallworth had to get thrown at him yet still put up Pro Bowl numbers. I guess you're going to say that AB gave Horn more catchable balls. I hate that i'm being put in a spot to defend Aaron Brooks in a sense, but there's no way I'll believe that it's totally or even mostly Brooks' fault that Stallworth dropped passes. Brooks threw some pretty horrible balls behind, above, and beyond the recievers a lot of the time. However, dropped passes means the ball touched your hands and you had a reasonable shot at catching it but didn't, like errors in baseball. And if you think dropped balls are no big deal, then you're sadly mistaken because in the NFL dropped balls kill drives.
GoldRush26 500th Post Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 594

04-03-2006, 04:09 PM	#65
deucerulez Registered Join Date: Aug 2004 Posts: 45	Goldrush I agree with you 100% on the catchable ball deal, not to defend you know who...it hits you in the hands you get paid to catch it....My question for horn stallworth and the boyz I mentioned in another post is what's the excuse for dropped passes this year, different spin on the ball?? We shall see I guess
deucerulez Registered Join Date: Aug 2004 Posts: 45

04-03-2006, 04:11 PM	#66
GoldRush26 500th Post Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 594	Originally Posted by saintswhodi He drops too many: Donte "dropped" 11 balls. Like to see what hey define as catchable but anyway, Plaxico burress and Muhsin Muhammed dropped the same amount. I wonder if they should get traded. Very close to Donte was Eddie Kennison, Antonio Gates, Chad Johnson and Chris Chambers. Are those guys getting traded? Don't think so. Drops=no big deal. A better QB will fix that. I just re-read this. We aren't seriously comparing Donte Stallworth to Buress, Muhammed, Antonio Gates, Chad Johnson and Chris Chambers, are we??? Eddie Kennison is the only one I would say is comparable to Stallworth, and yeah I wouldn't be surprised one bit if he got traded. He wouldn't be getting a second rounder, that's for sure. Same rap with him....a blazer with questionable hands. Drops=no big deal???? i can't believe u said that. I guess all of his catches were a total credit to him and all of his drops were Brooks fault.
GoldRush26 500th Post Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 594

04-03-2006, 02:19 PM	#61
saintswhodi 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: San Antonio, TX Posts: 6,941	And blaming his catching woes on AB is the same thing those Raiders fans are doing....blaming AB's throwing woes on Stallworth, and the o-liine, and the coaches. Yeah it's partially AB's fautl but everyone of us here knows that Stallworth has probably the worst hands on the team, along with Henderson. That's bull. Anyone who has watched the Saints for any period of time knows AB threw one of the most uncatchable balls ever when he was off. On the opposite end, in the Rams game this year, Donte made a catch off the top of his shoe strings running top speed towards the sideline on a pass that wasn't thrown at bullet train speed. Also, you could plainly SEE his breakaway speed in his first two years when he wasn't injured, when he caught slant passes that allowed him to stay upright and make a play. The last two years when he has been healtthy, the slant pass has consisted of him diving in the dirt with no chance to run. Please. As far as your underestimating his value, Donte put up better numbers than Lloyd across the board, easily. In 45 games played, Lloyd has 13 TDs. In 56 played, Donte has 23. Plays over 20 yards in the same amount of games? Lloyd has 20, Donte has 46. So lloyd avergaes .29 TD a game, Donte .42. Lloyd averages .44 plays of over 20 yards per game, Donte averages .82. And this is WITH Donte missing huge parts of his first two years. It's not even close, and Lloyd got a third round pick, AND a fourth next year. So damn right Donte is worth at least a second. He is only getting better. Lloyd has never done ANYTHING and drew a 3rd and a 4th. Ridiculous.

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04-03-2006, 04:13 PM	#67
saintswhodi 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: San Antonio, TX Posts: 6,941	LOL....all of that "averaging out" is unnecessary. Um, averaging out is the only way to get a clear picture of two guys who have played a different amount of games. I can take ANY 2 or three season stretch and make the numbers say what I want. But you can't hide averages. So that's what I did. I noticed you didn't say anything about that 2nd for McCareins though. Stallworth is clearly better than Lloyd. The averages prove it. But if i was arguing your side, I would try to make the stats as vague as possible too. Next, Horn and Stallworth are TWO DIFFERENT RECEIVERS. Joe Horn is more of a possession type, big catch receiver, although he led the team in drops last year. Stallworth is a BURNER, who is learning more possession type skills. Who has been catching AB's passe slonger, the vet Horn, who came to the Saints at age 28 in 1999, or the young player Stallworth, who came two years later and has battled injuries his first two years? Is this even a serious comparison? Can't be. And if you think dropped balls are no big deal, then you're sadly mistaken because in the NFL dropped balls kill drives. So do bad passes, INTs, and fumbles. And now we are gonna get into WHEN dropped passes happen? Are you gonna analyze it for Chad Johnson, Antonio Gates, Plax Burress, Muhsin Muhammed, and Chris Chambers too? Even GREAT receivers drop balls. It happens. It's not always their fault though. If they go by what you say and any ball that touches your hands in catchable, it's understandable why Stallworth has a high number, cause that's BS. If you're running across the field at top speed to avoid a LB, and the QB throws it behind you like a rocket, and you reach back and get a hand on it, should you catch that? Is it the receivers' fault if he doesn't? Is that a "reasonable" shot? Please.

04-03-2006, 04:14 PM	#68
saintswhodi 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: San Antonio, TX Posts: 6,941	Originally Posted by GoldRush26 Originally Posted by saintswhodi He drops too many: Donte "dropped" 11 balls. Like to see what hey define as catchable but anyway, Plaxico burress and Muhsin Muhammed dropped the same amount. I wonder if they should get traded. Very close to Donte was Eddie Kennison, Antonio Gates, Chad Johnson and Chris Chambers. Are those guys getting traded? Don't think so. Drops=no big deal. A better QB will fix that. I just re-read this. We aren't seriously comparing Donte Stallworth to Buress, Muhammed, Antonio Gates, Chad Johnson and Chris Chambers, are we??? Eddie Kennison is the only one I would say is comparable to Stallworth, and yeah I wouldn't be surprised one bit if he got traded. He wouldn't be getting a second rounder, that's for sure. Same rap with him....a blazer with questionable hands. Drops=no big deal???? i can't believe u said that. I guess all of his catches were a total credit to him and all of his drops were Brooks fault. did I compare those players, or the dropped passes stat for those players to Donte? Might wanna read back.

04-03-2006, 04:20 PM	#69
saintswhodi 5000 POSTS! + Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: San Antonio, TX Posts: 6,941	I think I see where papz was coming from: Nevermind I'll stop here... I'm enjoy my vodka and leave you be. Going to take the BonB approach on this one. I can go on forever and you will still not understand my point of view. Outside of the Vodka, I am gonna take this same approach.

04-03-2006, 04:46 PM	#70
AllSaints Breakin Records Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Deville, Louisiana Posts: 2,167	Ok trading Stallworth would be stupid, He is coming off his best year and is getting better every season.... Get a new Qb in town that is a heckuva lot better than Brooks and trade him.... I really think Stallworth and Brees will be hooking up this year in the endzone alot...... more than horn.......... I just dont see why we trade Stallworth i am just starting to like the guy........